Historical Units? Or attempts?

[D-9-13]

Does anyone know if there are any units that strive to be as historically accurate as possible, as a cohesive unit? I am sure there are individuals who do too, but just curious if there is an established unit anywhere, that strives to come close to a LH type or even several different forms of LH? Periods? Cultures?
There doesn't seem to be any one unit that I have heard of (at least not out west here) that is a real "historical unit" and it would be cool if there was a cross-kingdom unit of players, like a brotherhood or something, even all from different historical persona's and timelines and backgrounds, that were each part of a LH unit, meaning they tried to keep their persona as close to what it might have been ("might" is where a bit if personal theory, belief, study, research, etc. can come in) for their individual timeline.
What started the thought was there was a guy at a recent event who was just starting to get his kit together but he fought round shield and spear and javelin amazing, I think like a "300-esque" Spartan, and it would be cool, even if from different historical timelines, if there was a recognized unit of players devoted to historical attempt...I try to do an "as accurate as possible" (for Bel) early Crusader, but it was cool to fight alongside someone else who was striving for the same accuracy in their chosen period....made it really fun and I learned a ton about that period, even though I didn't fight in it.......just a thought...
Anyone know of any individual units or anything close in Bel?

[Sir Anastasia]

There is a Visigoths unit in LA/OC Cali and it is Dag/Bel. They are getting started, but it takes a long time for everyone to learn the history, pick appropriate names, and get the appropriate garb. It will probably take them several years to start looking the part and train with the correct weapons (type, length, shield size and shape ect).

[Tonaho]

You're talking about Libra, huh? Round shield, often fought shirtless if he could, blue battle skirt.
I'm not sure how much he really goes for historical accuracy, though from my understanding he draws inspiration from Achilles as portrayed in the movie Troy.
We also have a guy down here who really does go for historical accuracy as a Roman soldier. He's a good guy too. Bigger guy with a big roman curved shield.

Anyways, I haven't heard of an entire unit based around an adoration of historical accuracy, especially not one that was not bound to just being romans or just being spartans or what have you.

[The Bruce]

If Belegarth incorporates the "single green pierces non-metal armor" rule that's being floated in Dag, I can see LOTS of Spartan-type units forming around shield/spear...

[Tonaho]

My voice may not go very far, but I don't think we should let that happen. I mean, it sounds really cool to have a spartan themed unit, but as a spear user I actually love it that I'm so ineffective with one arm. Hell, I was screamed at for not killing Magnus because I only had one arm, but I think it added something because it challenges me to find someone I can kill or a way to get close and kill with my sidearm. Anyways, my .02 is in on that, sorry for the derail.

[Sir Anastasia]

I think it's cheesy single green doesn't go through armor.

[Caleidah]

I think it's cheesy single green doesn't go through armor.

Your reasoning being...?

[Sir Anastasia]

When I get stabbed without armor, I am dead. If I put armor on, I am not. Did I get mass awesome skillz...no, but I did buy myself an unfair advantage.

[Caleidah]

So...you don't mind that it also adds the ability to take extra damage from slashing, but stabbing bothers you while in armor.


I don't know. Maybe it's because I don't fight with stabbing weapons all that often, but if I'm set on killing someone in armor and feel like stabbing I either stab for a gap in the armor or at somewhere on their body that isn't armored at all but will still limit their effectiveness.

-=Edit=-
Given that this is the medieval sciences forum, my thought is also more correct historically. Stabbing at the weak points at the joints of the armor is the only place where you would actually be able to penetrate one handed.

[Azgarehta]

I'm a spear fighter, and I often fight in Arnor, where 90% of the field wears leather or chain armor. Don't cheat your hands, get a solid grip and knock the **** out of them. I'm not against rule changes, but challenge yourself to be a better fighter, not a rule changer.

[Arrakis]

So...you don't mind that it also adds the ability to take extra damage from slashing, but stabbing bothers you while in armor.


I don't know. Maybe it's because I don't fight with stabbing weapons all that often, but if I'm set on killing someone in armor and feel like stabbing I either stab for a gap in the armor or at somewhere on their body that isn't armored at all but will still limit their effectiveness.

-=Edit=-
Given that this is the medieval sciences forum, my thought is also more correct historically. Stabbing at the weak points at the joints of the armor is the only place where you would actually be able to penetrate one handed.

Give me a sharp dagger and I will ruin the **** out of your leather armor or butted chain PLUS any human retarded enough to let me stab them while wearing it. 99% of armor blows giant penis vs. stabbing. It's utter * that a slashing sword can kill a person in maille in our game in two shots and a stout shot from a stiletto or stabbing point literally does nothing, all * day. I routinely spin people halfway around with stabs from my one-handed swords and, it they're wearing a later of 3/16" thick leather, they get to completely ignore them.

[Oisin]

I can count on the fingers on one hand the people in Belegarth who make a really serious attempt at historical accuracy.

I'm one of them, so I notice such things.

There's somewhat more in Dagorhir, but still very few.

[Judas]

I thought Oisin would have pointed you to his (our) unit. The Fianna makes a modest attempt at recreating a Celtic war band although some people in the unit do not play Celts but rather various other Iron Age personas. It’s mostly our laws and interests that we have adopted from our ancient counterparts. Some in the unit make more of an attempt to be historically correct while others portray an adaptation of neo-peagan, fantasy, legend and history. Dagorhir has a decent Roman unit and others in Bel. include the Dimma Ulfur who portray 10th(?) century Norse and the Cu Sith who also do Celts but somewhat of a later period (I think).
I would love to see more accuracy in Belegarth but I think that’s a pipedream.

[Oisin]

Judas, we don't try for history, as a group, at nearly the level he's asking about. I'm not sure how serious he is about looking for somebody that's actually at or going for living history level, and I'm not sure if he fully comprehends what that means, but while we try and base ourselves in the history and mythology of late Iron Age (and early Medieval and Viking age . . .) Ireland, we're nowhere near being LH.

Buuuut . . . I guess that now since it's a reasonable hour and I've read the OP coherently, and noticed things like "300-esque Spartan", then yeah, Fianna's at least better than 300.

There's a group in West Virginia called Talboffer that are mostly LH guys who also do Dagorhir (Bel not so much because of geography), and there's a unit of the Dag realm Angaron, called Drentha, that are trying to bring themselves up as close to LH standards as possible. This year at Rag they were shooting for a nothing-mundane-in-camp policy, I haven't heard how well that went.

[Judas]

Well the topic does say historical attempts.

[Oisin]

You know I have high standards

[Ilariia Bulochnika]

Yeah, the Dimma Ulfur as a whole is meant to be a late 9th/early 10th c. Danish Warband (though lead by a couple of Rus). However, only a few folks within the group really strive for being period, though we urge the group as a whole to attempt it.

[Mekoot Rowan]

Rather than trying to organize a cohesive unit on a historical theme, why not start a guild? Just an idea.

[Titan G]

i don't normally post here cause i don't give a **** about this stuff usually, and i only skimmed the first few posts by oison cause he's SUPER long winded; but the fianna are selling themselves short. if you want historical accuracy its them and the dark wolves. mostly historical re-enactors stick to the sidelines cause stick jocks beat them up but the fianna give a better accounting of themselves than most and from what i've seen and from what i've read personally they are fairly accurate and give it a hell of a better try than anyone else.

[D-9-13]

You're talking about Libra, huh? Round shield, often fought shirtless if he could, blue battle skirt.
I'm not sure how much he really goes for historical accuracy, though from my understanding he draws inspiration from Achilles as portrayed in the movie Troy.
We also have a guy down here who really does go for historical accuracy as a Roman soldier. He's a good guy too. Bigger guy with a big roman curved shield.

Anyways, I haven't heard of an entire unit based around an adoration of historical accuracy, especially not one that was not bound to just being romans or just being spartans or what have you.

Hey Tonaho, yeah, it was Libra who sparked the idea, or the question. His fighting was amazing, good chap too. Now that I see you say Achilles I can totally see that, he did a swift leap over a leg shot from someone in our line and mid air skewered me dead center in the chest with a javy, it was so awesome I just fell dead laughing in awe, lifted me feet off the ground, awesome shot and totally fun.

So as I lay there in a mail-clad lump of rotting flesh I thought, man, how cool would it be if there was a unit or something that worked towards specific historical persons (even with elements of fantasy or "theory"), but yeah Rowan, good idea, thanks. Maybe a guild is the way to go, that way you can have personas from all over different periods of History....

[Ilariia Bulochnika]

There is a historical personas forum, you should join.

[Judas]

It could use the energy.

[Tiberius Claudius]

Sorry to necro the thread,


Hey, Calde'r! I remember fighting you. Your garb looks sweet out there. It's a shame you had to leave early from Samhain.

My unit, Legio XXV Fidelis Constans, in the Bel realm An Tir Dearg (St. George, UT) is striving to be about 90% historical with our roman re-enactment. We picked the XXV because no information is known on it, so we can have some wiggle room with historicty / RP.

We have weekly unit practices where we use Latin commands for drill. I'm a former Marine, so I transposed the historical texts over the movements that I learned in the Corps, removed irrelevant actions, and came up with our own drill manual.

We also fight in formations with pila, scutum, and gladius - each Legionairre having a mandatory minimum set of garb. We're only 5 strong right now, but we are working on recruiting and becoming better fighters through unit cohesion rather than being a bunch of kick-butt individuals roaming like lone wolves like you usually see out there.

We realize that we play a sport where we use foam weapons and shields, etc, so won't be so strict as to mandate 100% linen tunics when a blend will suffice, or that $150.00 100% authentic helms be purchased when $50.00 near-authentic helms will suffice. In short, we are willing to make some exceptions to 100% realism when practicality or expense outweigh our devotion to historocity.

[Oisin]

Using authentic fabrics is as much about utility as authenticity. Leaving aside the fact that Roman army tunics were wool not linen, 100% linen is the most comfortable cloth there is for fighting in. It cools your body far better than cotton, and in my experience it performs at or slightly above artificial cloth like UnderArmour.

http://fabric-store.com is by far the most cost-effective place to buy 100% linen. The 5.3 oz stuff is what you'll want for tunics.

If you get the right wools, which is more tricky, it's also a very comfortable fabric (if you get wool that isn't itchy), and combined with linen actually makes a very good combined cooling system.

In the summer time, I wear a linen tunic under a tunic made from very light worsted wool, both long and long sleeved, and no matter how hot it gets, once that linen tunic soaks through with sweat it feels literally cold . . . as long as I stay hydrated well, anyway, and you will sweat a LOT, but it's absolutely worth it in terms of the returns you get in thermal comfort.

See here for more info about fabric selections:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30969

[Tiberius Claudius]

Yep, good points all.

We wear the linen for heat purposes and because we have found wool to be more expensive. Where we live, its really only cold enough to use wool for about 2-3 months out of the year. I'm a bigger guy, so I can handle it in just my linen tunic when we do get our occasional 30 degree weather.

But, that's why we're only striving for about 90% authenticity and not all-out re-enactment. One of our big resources is Matt Amt's Legio XX's handbook

[Oisin]

Wool isn't just cold-weather clothing.

I know a lot of people refuse to accept this until they try it, but lightweight wool is one of the most comfortable things there is to wear in hot weather.

It is more expensive, though, that is fair, although it's also easier to sew and has to be washed less, so it's a trade off in terms of total value. I never pay more than $10 a yard for summerweight wool, and often a bit less.

[Arrakis]

Wool isn't just cold-weather clothing.

I know a lot of people refuse to accept this until they try it, but lightweight wool is one of the most comfortable things there is to wear in hot weather.

It is more expensive, though, that is fair, although it's also easier to sew and has to be washed less, so it's a trade off in terms of total value. I never pay more than $10 a yard for summerweight wool, and often a bit less.

Truth.

Also, Oisin, where's the best, cheapest wool you've found?

[Djoske]

If me and my realm get the money to travel to one of your events,you will see what history and historical units are all about