Garb and Science Ranking System

[Bear]

So, my realm has been toying with combat and archery ranks for a while to help show advancement within the realm and the point was made that we do not have anything for the non combatants to help show their progression within the realm. I was wondering if any of you had suggestions for challenges that one must accomplish to gain a rank in in "Non-Combatant Activities". I honestly have no idea where to start because I have little experience with arts clothing and sciences so any suggestions help a ton.

As a reference to the difficulty of ranking we have rank 1 and 2 listed as having a simple quiz of the basics and slightly more than basics as well as some simple tests of proficiencies all the way to rank six where you would have to win a tournament and defeat two opponents 4 our of 4 times.

[The Great Gigsby]

Look at the Amtgard ladder awards for ideas, specifically Order of the Garber.

http://amtwiki.net/amtwiki/index.php/Ladder_award

[Bear]

Thank you for the link, it helped me get off to a good start. I like the idea of providing accessories to the winners of tournaments being a requirement.

Also, what are some simple questions one could ask as to tests someone's knowledge of the basics? Examples could be "Name 3 different types of stitches" or something along those lines. Again, I am definitely not the best person to be figuring out these things due to my inexperience which is why I am asking your advice .

[Shrike Fletcher]

As a non-combatant who likes picking up odd projects for Bele, I recently went through a similar debate on non-com requirements for recognition and came to the conclusion that it is very dependent on the particular activity they are interested in.

Are you ranking sewing only, or other skills as well like foam-smithing, cooking, leatherwork, chainmail weaving, or crafting accessories? Questions for foam-smithing or armor crafting are relatively easy (there's a lot out there about materials, construction techniques, and of course the BoW) while something more unusual that adds to the atmosphere but is not for fighting could be extremely difficult. Regardless, you may find that requirements make more sense as finished products than questions about basic skills. Naturally, as their rank increases, more and more challenging projects should be required, maybe even projects that cover a different skill set than where they originally started (think of it like learning to fight with a new set of weapons).

If you really want to ask questions, I would rely on a local 'expert' if you have one; they are more likely to be in tune with what those in your realm already know or where they need improvement. They should be able to judge where "the basics" really start. You can also always ask simple BoW/rules related questions even if they are a non-com; it won't test their basic crafting skill, but it is still important to know if you're making something that may be used on the field.

Also, don't forget that some non-coms may not "make stuff" but they can still help run practices or events. This is its own beast, so it may be best not to worry about that for now.

In short, I think your question raises a few others:
Is your intent to encourage non-coms to make things so your garb and camp look nice and your events have cool prizes? Or just to improve their skill level in general?
Do you know what the non-coms are already doing in your realm, and therefore what is important for you to recognize?
Have some already done work that should give them rank or will you be starting with a clean slate?

I hope that wasn't too much thrown at you at once. This is a topic I've had many long debates over, so I have a lot to discuss...

[Bear]

In short, I think your question raises a few others:
Is your intent to encourage non-coms to make things so your garb and camp look nice and your events have cool prizes? Or just to improve their skill level in general?
Do you know what the non-coms are already doing in your realm, and therefore what is important for you to recognize?
Have some already done work that should give them rank or will you be starting with a clean slate?

I want to encourage people to start doing non-com things such as cooking, garb or weapon making. We have a few non-coms that come to practice and just hang out and I felt bad that they had nothing to do all the time and I did not want them to think they were not a part of the community as well. There are a few people who would start of with a rank or two in non-com due to the amount of work they have done to help others in the realm get their garb up and such.

As far as leadership is concerned we require ranks in either fighter or archery to attain higher officer ranks. As you can see this leaves out any non-com form being an officer which is wrong and it unintentionally alienates some of our members.

In the beginning I thought I was going to make non-com skills just sewing but that blocks out a ton of other useful skills. Now I am attempting to make the non-com skill more broad and all encompassing.

This is obviously a rough draft but this is the basic layout of what the ranks would be. I am unsure exactly how to word this to allow all forms of non-com but I am more worried about the difficulty of getting to rank 6. It should be challenging and rank 6 should be the hardest thing to do. I mostly based it off of our current ranks for fighter to make something equivalent but I have no idea how hard it is to do these things so a little insight would be useful as to helping keep everything balanced. Here is a link to where the fighter ranks can be found:
http://theswordcoast.com/FighterRanks.html


Rank 1
Create a simple project to help promote the realm
-Examples include garb for yourself or someone else, food at an event or practice, foam smithing for yourself or someone else.

Rank 2
Create a project for someone other than yourself

Rank 3
Must create a project for yourself or another person
-Example: Garb, Cooking, Weapons, etc
Must create a project for yourself or another person that is different from the first project
-Example: If a tabard was made for the first requirement then the applicant can not make garb for this requirement.

Rank 4
Must compete in a non-com tournament or competition (I am unsure how many competitions there are out there for non-coms but this is one of the requirements for fighters that we have)
Must create 2 projects that demonstrates advance understanding of their discipline. Both can be of the same discipline or of differing ones.

Rank 5
Must place in a non-com tournament
Must create 2 projects for yourself or others that demonstrate an advance knowledge of their discipline.

Rank 6
Must place first in a non-com tournament
Must create a project for yourself or others that demonstrates a mastery of their skills.

[Shrike Fletcher]

Must place in a non-com tournament

This is where I foresee problems, and I notice tournaments are not a requirement for your archers. Although there are a few non-com tournaments I have seen, they are rather specific in field and few in number. Perhaps a better route here is asking someone to diversify into different fields, or simply requiring some bigger officer/realm-approved project. You can also ask the person set specific goals for themselves and meet them. These could be anything from learning a new technique to working with one of the 'experts' in their field on something they make.

As far as making rank 6 hard enough, I ask you this: how long do you expect people to take between ranks? The part you can do with non-coms but not fighters is predict how long it will take to finish a rank based on the size of their projects. Assume that upon completion of the project they will be able to move up in rank; that should give you a better judge of how difficult a project should be and how long it should take to "prove mastery".

Alternatively, you could give feedback to explain what needs to improve in the person's work to make it "good enough" for that rank, but that will be very subjective. If you're okay with that, I think it will be easier to set up your requirements. You can just assume that each 'project' needs to meet realm standards and if it's voted down for some reason, that feedback must be given as to why.

In the meantime, encourage your non-combatants to bring projects with them and start teaching each other -- small sewing, painting, chainmail, and some leatherwork are all examples of things I've done. Though the ranks are a good incentive, I think the culture is more important to making people feel included. And, because I didn't say this earlier, serious kudos to you and your realm for trying to bring non-coms further into your community.

[Bear]

Although there are a few non-com tournaments I have seen, they are rather specific in field and few in number.

I agree that tournaments are hard to come by for non coms. I am using "win a tournament" as a guide to the quality of the project. For garb, the entire piece should be something that people look at and say "Daaaaaaaamn thats sexy". If you are a cooking type of non com there are not many tournaments for you but if you were to say cook up a super fantastic diner for the realm while at an overnight event then that could qualify. I say for the realm instead of unit or yourself and some others because its a rank in our realm and what the people should be doing is helping the realm as a whole.

how long do you expect people to take between ranks?

I believe that all depends on the amount of free time someone has and their dedication to finishing the project. Due to the broad range of things that are acceptable for non-coms to do to rank up I find it hard to estimate a time frame of finishing. The best I can answer that is by saying that whoever is ranking needs to go to at least a few events but I am not quite sure how to phrase that. I could set up something like "help prepare someone for an event" or something along those lines.

Alternatively, you could give feedback to explain what needs to improve in the person's work to make it "good enough" for that rank, but that will be very subjective.

I think I am leaning more towards the more subjective side of things. There will be a small interview with the person who is attempting to rank where they bring in their projects and whoever is the officer administering the ranks is would inspect the projects to see if there is something wrong and talk to the person about their experience making the project and if it is acceptable then they get their rank. If there is something wrong with it the officer will provide feedback and the applicant will be able to take the projects back and fix them.

And, because I didn't say this earlier, serious kudos to you and your realm for trying to bring non-coms further into your community.

Providing a good atmosphere and getting everyone included just makes the game more fun.

[Arrakis]

Look at the Amtgard ladder awards for ideas, specifically Order of the Garber.

http://amtwiki.net/amtwiki/index.php/Ladder_award

Seconded. And talk to some people in Amtgard about how long it takes to make master, for example, or get a serpent belt.

[Mannajax]

Have you considered something like this for rank up (use sewing, but can apply to all trades):

Rank one - Complete one basic piece of garb. Ex. tabard, flag, tunic.
This is not fancy, just shows basic hemming abilities.

Rank two - Repeat phase one in addition to another, more complicated project. Ex. a rank one project with two colors or trimmed.

Rank three - Repeat phases one and two, in addition to a more complicated project. Ex. a rank two project with applique or minor embroidery.



Repeat this through rank 6. This has a couple benefits at least. You know they're doing more than 6 things, but a whole lot more. All the extra little things floating around can be donated to realm usage and make your realm all the better. Spare tabards laying around for a curious inquirer to use might bring them over to the dark side even easier. Who doesn't like more meals cooked for them? Or even feasts!
I wouldn't just have the next rank be something harder, but do something harder in addition to the easier skills. This will show you that it wasn't a fluke, and that they truly have mastered that level of skill with repeated results.

[Bear]

Rank one - Complete one basic piece of garb. Ex. tabard, flag, tunic.
This is not fancy, just shows basic hemming abilities.

Rank two - Repeat phase one in addition to another, more complicated project. Ex. a rank one project with two colors or trimmed.

Rank three - Repeat phases one and two, in addition to a more complicated project. Ex. a rank two project with applique or minor embroidery.

This is the general idea of the each rank I just could not find the right words to apply to all the trade styles.

[Mannajax]

Ok sorry, i thought you were saying that each rank only require one action of an increasing difficulty

[Bear]

I just re-read your post about the ranks and realized that I totally read it wrong. What you are saying is that for the jump from rank 5 to rank 6 the applicant must make 1 piece equivalent to a rank 1 piece, 1 equivalent to a rank 2, 1 to rank 3 and so forth till a total of six pieces are made. I like this. It forces the person to make garb to either A. help out the realm as a whole or B. Have a super awesome closet full of garb.

[Shrike Fletcher]

I think that could work; the real challenge is knowing how to draw the line between each rank. In general, I think that will come rather naturally as long as you have someone who's keeping track of what's been made.

Something you also might want to consider by the time they reach Rank 6: teaching. Being able to run a garb-night or class on their craft of choice both shows mastery (hopefully) and can help others down the same path.

[Bear]

Very true, a person who is rank 6 should be able to run some sort of lesson and teach others the skill they choose to use.

Another thing I am thinking of implementing is that people do not have to stick to the same thing each rank. For example, someone can make some simple garb for rank 1 and then for rank 2 they want to cook up some meal for the realm at an multi-day event. This would be okay in my book because it would be too limiting to have someone only be able to use their ranks in one thing. The only downside to this I can see is that it would be hard to compare the craftsmanship of one project to another.

All the ranks are going to be subjective and totally up to the person who gives the rank advancements to determine if whatever was created is worthy of being "more advance". I figure a good guide would be "Is this better than their previous rank?" That way you are comparing the person to themselves rather than someone else.

[Mannajax]

Yes that's what I was going for. The idea of teaching as an additional requirement to 6 projects is great. I don't think anyone can ever really call themselves a master at anything until they know their craft well enough to be able to teach it.
What you need to do is decide what is considered a masterpiece to each skill. Obviously tailoring would be a full set of embroidered ar appliqued garb. Armorer would be a set of each material with tooling. I think you could have a master leather smith, chain weaver, and plate smith. One could only be a master armorer after showing proper proficiency in all areas.
Culinary would be heading a full banquet at a realm event possibly. Music would be not just playing, but composing a song. Maybe you could do first four stages as different instruments, fifth as composing a song, then sixth as teaching their instruments.
After you decide what each masterpiece consists of, then you break it down into its parts and start from the simplest to hardest steps. Viola, a non-com ranking system.

[Bear]

After you decide what each masterpiece consists of, then you break it down into its parts and start from the simplest to hardest steps. Viola, a non-com ranking system.

Wow... I never thought about going through it like that... it seems so much easier to deal with everything that way. I think I was making this more complicated that in needed to be in my head but now that there is a specific goal for each mastery building to it doesn't seem that hard.

I am going to work on revising the system throughout the week in my down time between classes and work. I dont know when I will finish it but when it is done I will post a revised copy up here.

[Fitz Caliston]

Look at the Amtgard ladder awards for ideas, specifically Order of the Garber.

http://amtwiki.net/amtwiki/index.php/Ladder_award

Seconded. And talk to some people in Amtgard about how long it takes to make master, for example, or get a serpent belt.

Thirded, It's a long but rewarding personal growth experience.

It took me 11 years to get my Master Owl (construction type things, weapon smithing, armoring, etc). And For example in a judging system scoring 0-5 where a 3.0 is average and 5.0 is perty much unatainable I've entered in over 40 items between my 9th and 10th orders that scored above a 4.25 (about half of which were 4.5 or higher) and that was over the course of a 4 year span.

Been working on Garbing and General A&S for just as long and sit at 10 Orders of the Garber and 10 Dragons but have not reached masterhood yet. I'll let ya know when or if that Serpent belt ever happens.

One of the largest differences between Bel and Amt on an orgaization level is the recognition system that Amtgard has Standardized across the game. I know many Crossgamers and Bel folks that wish Bel would adopt a similar system. The biggest thing to realize is that if it's not a National standardized effort then it'll just be a passing phase in your local area.

[The Great Gigsby]

I don't mind the absence of a formalized award system, Fitz.

I think skilled individuals get enough recognition in Bel. Where we do lack is in providing incentive to newer members to improve and that's where the Amtgard ladder system really shines. I remember everyone at my shire getting all excited about earning their second order of the rose or owl. When somebody made the leap to a 3rd or 4th order or earned a title it was a really big deal.

My realm is implementing a ladder system to provide an incentive for new guys to build their own gear and sew garb as well as improve on the field. I couldn't care less about being a "man (monster?) at arms" or earning ranks in polearm proficiency but all the fresh recruits are eating it up.

For us more experienced players that have been around the block, service and excellence is it's own reward.

[randy]

I'll let ya know when or if that Serpent belt ever happens.

Wait your not a serpent yet? *?!

[Peanut of Loderia]

The only problem I've heard (note heard, never experienced) is that these can kind of turn into a buddy system. Like a guy let them in, don't like a guy * him no matter how good it is. That is something I wouldn't like to see.

[Caleidah]

The only problem I've heard (note heard, never experienced) is that these can kind of turn into a buddy system. Like a guy let them in, don't like a guy * him no matter how good it is. That is something I wouldn't like to see.

So you have the judging done by a group? Eliminate the threat of one assbite ruining it for groups of others by removing sole individual power.

[Peanut of Loderia]

The only problem I've heard (note heard, never experienced) is that these can kind of turn into a buddy system. Like a guy let them in, don't like a guy * him no matter how good it is. That is something I wouldn't like to see.

So you have the judging done by a group? Eliminate the threat of one assbite ruining it for groups of others by removing sole individual power.

Ah but who elects the group?

[Caleidah]

The same people that elect any group: The masses. Get a group that exemplifies a high standard on garb and sciences and set them as the council. Make it rotating. Court of public opinion could work, too.

Then again, we're concerned over hypothetical douchebags that might abuse their power to keep someone down, ensuring that anyone else in the system would tear them a new * at the earliest convenience.

[randy]

You still wind up with a buddy system. The main reason I like bel is because I dont have to worry about some tard trying to politicize his way into his next ladder award.

[Loptr]

You still wind up with a buddy system. The main reason I like bel is because I dont have to worry about some tard trying to politicize his way into his next ladder award.

I heart you Randy, just wish you could be a bit more direct.

loptr