our own special footwear?

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our own special footwear?

Postby LoganSteele » Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:15 pm

I have been seeking a foot wear upgrade for a while now by looking at what others use, reading through the boards and gaining advice. This summer during an event i recieved an injury to my ankle while wearing my hiking boots. My doctor said the boot probubly prevented the injury from being far worse. Yay for ankle support! Now im loving my boots and as one option might put something over them to make them look period but as another idea i am seeking an upgrade. I read a post where forkbeard mentioned police tactical boots as being pretty good and few few things here and there.

There are shoes for tennis, shoes for golf, shoes for basketball. Are there shoes for us? We have some very specific needs ill list feel free to add. Maybe we can talk someone into starting a product line (doubtful but people started making other equiptment for us to buy).

Seems to me what we need is
1) Period look. Looks like its Medeival (medeival outside high tech inside)while also offering...
2) support and protection while not severly hindering movements used on the field. (ankle support, arch support and so on)
3) light weight? (some may like this some not)
4) grip. not cleats but a nice grip for grass, loose gravel, dirt, mud and so on.

Thoughts? Comments? Additions?
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Re: our own special footwear?

Postby Argent » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:22 pm

For something with ankle support I love these combat boots, there's practically no break in time and are very comfortable: http://www.uscav.com/productinfo.aspx?p ... &tabid=548

if you want a medieval look you can get some gaiters.

Lately i've been fighting in my vibram five fingers: http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/produc ... k-Mens.htm
no ankle support I know but i like fighting in them
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Re: our own special footwear?

Postby Kyrian » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:40 pm

These are the ones I use for fighting from Son of Sandlar:

http://sonofsandlar.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Peasant-Boots.jpg

They cost around $210 although I'm guessing the price has gone up. They are completely waterproof. The lacing takes a long time but they look "medievalish" and don't really impair my mobility that much. It took a lot of regular wearing before they were broken in. They are fairly lightweight and have a good tread. They don't really protect the toes from getting stepped on and the lacing provides some ankle support. Until you get them broken in, your feet will feel like they're squished.

Before this, I was using some heavy Goretex-lined hunting boots:

http://www.*.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2808130&cp=4406646.4413987.4417989.4418000

They were absolutely awesome for keeping my feet warm and dry but they were big and clunky and affected my mobility significantly. They cost about $100 and lasted several fighting seasons. They provided both good toe protection and ankle support.

I've heard pretty good things about these:

http://www.dancestore.com/houseofandar/CLEARANCE-Black-Mens-Renaissance-Boot/productinfo/309-BK/

but they can be iffy in what sizes they have available. They look to me like they'd be much easier to lace than the ones I have now.
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Re: our own special footwear?

Postby The Great Gigsby » Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:39 am

I've heard good things about Son of Sandlar.

Bohemond Boots are the best looking historical boots I've found, and most of their styles can be custom fitted with a treaded sole.

The thing is, ankle support on any historical boot is not going to be the best. Have you thought about buying a combat boot and then putting shoe covers on it?
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Re: our own special footwear?

Postby LoganSteele » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:59 am

Ive seen the gators used and thats not bad. Those http://www.dancestore.com/houseofandar/ ... fo/309-BK/
look pretty nice. My current hiking boots would be improved by gators and for around 10 bucks thats a good solution for me for now.

No ankle support on period boots, thats kind of what i thought. Sounds so far like all we got is ways to make other things work or make do but nothing that truly suits our needs.

They have baseball shoes, basketball shoes, golf shoes...we need a medeival combat shoe. Time to recruit a shoe maker! (cobbler?)

By the way thank you for all the replies and suggestions. Not only will they be useful for me while looking at options but for my realm members as well.
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Re: our own special footwear?

Postby Arrakis » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:32 pm

http://www.thearma.org/essays/historical-footwear.html


READ THIS.


I fight in Vibram Fivefingers KSO Treks. They're the best shoe I've ever tried for fighting.
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Re: our own special footwear?

Postby Tiberius Claudius » Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:59 pm

A+ article.....I never knew heels on shoes were for staying in stirrups. Fascinating.

I wonder how the Nike Free and Reebok varieties w/ the flexible sole would hold up to our game? My wife swears by them for comfort and lightness. She won't go back to regular thick soled shoes.
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Re: our own special footwear?

Postby Spork » Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:26 am

I feel like the pictures near the end of that article are just people wearing really thick socks.

I fight in Chippewa boots. I used to wear them for a job I had, but realized they weren't bad for fighting either. Not sure what kind I bought, it's been 4-5 years. Kind of heavy, but excellent for shield kicks. They have mediocre flexibility, great traction, and great ankle support.
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Re: our own special footwear?

Postby Arrakis » Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:27 pm

Spork wrote:mediocre flexibility... great ankle support.


So, exactly wrong for fighting according to that article.
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Re: our own special footwear?

Postby LoganSteele » Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:30 pm

Thank you for the article aarakis. Looks like ill be using my hiking boots for hiking again! So hiking boots for stomping around bathroom slippers to fight in (just kidding, kinda). Ill go get some new shoes. One more question...are shoe laces modern or period? from the pictures it appears they are modern. Maybe ill try those toe shoes but im unsure if i would like the unusual feeling on my toes. I do like the light heel less boots i see in some of the pictures but i bet those would be hard to find at a reasonable price.
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Re: our own special footwear?

Postby Arrakis » Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:03 pm

I know some shoes in period were laced. See:

http://www.westlandcrafts.com/products.php?id=113

So, it just depends on what you mean by laces, I guess.

More links!

http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-ca ... OEHOM3.HTM

http://www.westlandcrafts.com/index_02.php
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Re: our own special footwear?

Postby Spork » Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:53 pm

Arrakis wrote:
Spork wrote:mediocre flexibility... great ankle support.


So, exactly wrong for fighting according to that article.


Lmao, I know. I like having a heavy boot to smash into shields.

I have been fighting in TOMS a lot recently, great mobility and flexibility. I just feel like the wrong move and my ankle is going to snap. They blow out within 3-4 months of practice (2-3 times a week) and the price isn't worth it to keep replacing them. Great fighting shoes though.
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Re: our own special footwear?

Postby Derian » Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:59 am

I dig on TOMS. I bought a pair of black canvas ones for wearing around at night (after I strip off the brand labels, that is).

I don't mean to derail the subject of period footwear with some evolutionary-biomechanical soapboxing, but it's pretty relevant and necessary.

Now to the meat of the issue:

For those of you who buy in to the ankle support noise, take a second to read this: First off, ankle support is not a requirement of the human body in general. If you have any kind of medical condition (old injury or a tendancy to broken bones like osteoporosis, et al.), then please: listen to your doctor and not me; I do know about this, but then again I didn't spend 5+ years in medical school. That said, if you discuss the options with your doctor, you might find they'll be willing to work with you and suggest a way that you can work to strengthen your ankles (or knees, potentially) and leave tight laced high boots and/or braces behind.

If you're a (relatively) young, healthy person, then what you've been taught about ankle support is probably total *. If you're (more than a bit) overweight, you may experience issues and (short of losing the weight) will either want to take extra caution (read: time) with weaning off ankle support or go ahead and ignore the rest entirely until you lose weight. The human body is a very finely tuned instrument, but it was not tuned to function under the conditions an abundance of food modern society allows us to access puts us in. That is, if you're fat: your ancestors weren't. Be careful.

The human body has been nudged this way and that through random genetic mutations for millions of years. One of the results of this process is that we're pretty well designed for running fast over long distances across many varied types of terrain.

The majority of people who run for sport today buy in to the cushion-your-stride line of thought. This might not cause issues for some people but for many will inhibit the natural function of your body and lead to more issues down the road as your body becomes unable to compensate. For instance: shin splints. Check this out (from Wikipedia):

Most shin splints can be attributed to overloading the muscles of the lower extremities or biomechanical irregularities. Muscle imbalance, including weakened core muscles lead to more lower-extremity injuries; also the inflexibility and tightness of the gastrocnemius, soleus, and plantar muscles can contribute to shin splints.


Over time, imposing constraints and/or assisting joints or muscle groups will lead to those joints or muscle groups either failing to develop properly or deteriorating from their current status. This can accompany other unassisted muscle groups' development which can result in an imbalance which allows once part of your body to handle a certain workload but leaves another part woefully short. Ankle support falls in to this same category.

The upright bipedal form humans enjoy has been around for millions of years. How long have shoes with crazy tight ankle support been around? I'll be super generous (read: wrong) and say 12,000 years -- about the time of the invention of agriculture in human history. Again, providing for great leniency, the first 100%-without-a-doubt hominid that exhibited nearly exclusive bipedal locomotion was A. afarensis, which existed between 3.9 and 3.0 million years ago. Let's go ahead and call it 3 million years.

Barring illness, deformity or any other abnormality, do you think that humans could overcome 3 million years of evolution in ~10,000 years of technology (For those of you who don't have an evolutionary background, the answer is a resounding no)?

What does this mean? Ankle support is total * for most people. This doesn't mean that you should throw out your boots and go fight for 12 hours barefoot. If you've been relying on external compression to support and reinforce the bones, muscles, ligaments and tendons between your calf and foot for your entire life, then the muscles that should be providing this support are poorly developed and going full bore very well could result in any number of injuries that may lead to permanent problems.

Take it slow. Do you always wear boots with ankle support? If so, cut it out you **** nerd. Wear a pear of sneakers, dress shoes or nothing at all. You're looking for something that doesn't rise above your ankle at all. Wear them as much as you can. If this causes any kind of ache or pain, be careful. It's possible that it's simply muscle aches because you've been a * for 20 years, but at the same time, it could indicate a larger more serious problem.

Wean yourself off ankle support. Go for a short run in the most minimal shoes you own. Do it again. Whenever you feel comfortable, try fighting or a similarly footwork intensive activity in the most minimal shoes you have. Soccer, boxing, tennis, racquetball, or any number of other activities. Make sure to take it easy and listen to your body -- don't do anything dumb.

Once you've built up enough strength in your foot and lower calf muscles, you won't feel like you're going to injure yourself every time you stop on a dime after a dead sprint or step in a rabbit hole unexpectedly. Additionally, the more minimal your footwear is the better and more responsive your footwork can be in fighting. Depending on your abilities, this is probably one of the biggest factors that will lead to increasing your fighting skill.

TL;DR: Cave men didn't have ankle support. Quit being a * (medical conditions and special situations exempted).
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Re: our own special footwear?

Postby Spork » Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:08 pm

Derian wrote:A bunch of logic.


*.

I actually run in my TOMS, so the idea of fighting in them wasn't that foreign. Honestly, I thought since fighting sometimes on rougher terrain (sometimes mulch, hidden holes, hills) that it'd be wiser to have a boot that supported the ankle. Now with Arrakis posting a thread about the advantages of mobile/flexible shoes and you * me with a history lesson, I guess I'll keep fighting in some TOMS or a cheap alternative. Probably just end up investing in Vibrams.

Time to spread the message at practice. Thanks.
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Re: our own special footwear?

Postby Derian » Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:48 pm

Key takeaway is don't be a cowboy and hurt yourself. Really though, if you run in TOMS (or other similarly minimal shoes), you're probably fine.

Edit: Do yourself a favor and pick up some VFFs. I know they're pricey, but having owned and heavily used my KSOs for 3 years now, I can say they're going to be **** lightyears ahead of TOMS as far as fighting goes. TOMS tend to slip around on your feet a bit, which reduces traction. VFFs fit like a latex glove, so there's no extra movement introduced.

Get the KSOs. Lots of people like the KSO Treks, but I've heard more than a few bad (durability) things about them and have seen them start to have integrity issues after like six months. Stick with either the standard KSO or the Treksport.
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Re: our own special footwear?

Postby LoganSteele » Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:06 pm

Excellent info. thank you all for the good advice.
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Re: our own special footwear?

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:29 pm

I have VFF shoes, I love them. I have never used boots, or anything with ankle support. I have never injured my ankles from fighting. YMMV, I have practiced martial arts for years and got used to moving barefooted through stances, etc. I did more damage to my ankles skateboarding than I ever have fighting.
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Re: our own special footwear?

Postby LoganSteele » Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:08 pm

The only reason i got injured is two big guys stumbled backwards onto my leg as i was moving behind them to grab a sword from the ground and then kill them as they grappled. Totally my fault for poor situational awareness there.
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Re: our own special footwear?

Postby Ilariia Bulochnika » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:06 pm

I got Boots from Bohemond a few years ago and had fewer rolled ankles in them than I ever did in my hiking boots. They take a little time to conform your foot, but after that, it's like you aren't wearing boots.
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Re: our own special footwear?

Postby Roland Demox » Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:33 pm

Kyrian wrote:
I've heard pretty good things about these:

http://www.dancestore.com/houseofandar/CLEARANCE-Black-Mens-Renaissance-Boot/productinfo/309-BK/

but they can be iffy in what sizes they have available. They look to me like they'd be much easier to lace than the ones I have now.


Great boots, They sell them at most Ren Faires. Only problem is you really cant wear them after about 3 years depending on how much abuse they get. Due to wear and tear they break down like any shoe. But these ones will make your feet bleed and be virtually unwearable. Plus they can be pricey. I think my fiances were about 400 ish
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Re: our own special footwear?

Postby brendGol » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:27 pm

"If one of my brothers needs food I shall feed him, if he requires water he will drink from my canteen. If he needs clothing I will remove the shirt off my back and present it to him."


nice quote...

i specialize my own special handware.. glove' :)


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Re: our own special footwear?

Postby Davit » Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:38 pm

Btw, when I mentioned VFF's to my podiatrist she said, "well of course I recommend that or going barefoot" and pointed to the journal which contained her recently published research and a ton of others saying that they are the best thing for physical activity and would help support healthy feet in the long run, even in my poor diabetic case. And she's in the business of selling crazies like me 300 dollar footwear, so I'm pretty sure if she supports something that is loosing her money, she's not in it for anything but the good of the feet.
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Re: our own special footwear?

Postby LoganSteele » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:07 pm

Good info. Right now my ankle is still healing so i use the hiking boots to protect it and it makes a huge differance over not using it. Once the healing is done however i may look into those. I generally dont like shoes. I loved my birkenstocks when i had them. Long ago i got so used to not wearing shoes i was able to walk around all the time without any even out here in the summer on the concrete. Not so much anymore. Maybe ill look into trying out those fancy toe shoes.
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Re: our own special footwear?

Postby Arrakis » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:59 pm

Just remember, fighting involves applying a lot of sudden transverse loads to your ankles and knees; start off by just walking or jogging in your new shoes (or any less-supportive shoe) and work your way up to running and footwork drills (like ladders and 5-dot) so you don't hurt yourself.
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