Historical European Martial Arts / Western Martial Arts

[Blossfechter]

Hey guys,

I don't know if this would be the best place for this topic, but I thought I'd extend a welcome for anyone to come and train with my group in Tampa Bay. I'm not a part of Belegarth, but we share a common interest which is European-styled weapon combat. My group does HEMA (as in the title) or more specifically KDF (German: Kunst des Fechtens (Art of Combat)).

Anyway, my group is called The Kreig School of Historical Fencing. We practice all over Tampa Bay (in parks) as needed, but our gym is located in Largo. We currently practice on Tuesday nights at 7PM at the Highland Rec Center. I am able to travel and meet folks with our type of gear, if Tuesdays aren't doable, on a limited basis. I've searched the board and found some of you folks were looking for martial arts to help your fighting. Well, I can't think of a better one!

Our website is http://www.Kriegschool.com.

If you want to take a look through some historical manuals for free, go to http://www.wiktenauer.com. One main one I study from is http://www.wiktenauer.com/wiki/Joachim_Meyer/Longsword. Though, I bought a different translation in book form.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to start a flame war or anything about which approach or style of fighting is better. They are just different.

[Forkbeard]

Greetings.
Your way of fighting looks interesting. There are some people doing this here in Utah as well. I've been thinking about checking it out. I'm a little afraid that I will hurt them, honestly. I'm not sold on the idea of unpadded sticks without armor.
Looking at your equipment rules, though, I have a few questions.
Can I wear elbows and knees that I make myself? Can I use very hard leather to make them? Can I wear the Bazubands I wear for sca? They are leather also.
Where is the cheapest resource for those funny fencing masks? If you want our people to really check your fighting out, you'll need to make the gear very available and very cheap. Do you have loaners? Both weapons and masks? The other gear people will get on their own, as it can be used for many things, but the masks and weapons are specific to your game only.

I feel you should pick up some foam weapons and see what our combat has to offer you as well. Different weapons and different situation increase everyone fighting skills.
Welcome.
FB

[Blossfechter]

As far as the masks go, you can pick up the same one I've worn for 4 years for $45. That's super cheap. I have a full set of loaner gear because I'm our instructor. Most groups have extra stuff if they've been around a while.

The other gear is very necessary as well. It honestly doesn't matter if you've made it yourself or not as long as you have a hard shell over the joint (or your crotch...). Getting hit on a joint with a hard surface will put you out of training for quite a while.

A lot of people only wear only hard plates for joints, lacrosse gloves, and a mask for fencing with the plastic swords. For the steel, some people use the same. However, with my group, I'm going to require puncture resistant clothing due to safety concerns (padding is up to the user). I've broken several blades, and it's pretty scary because you can kill someone. A guy in Canada was recently stabbed through the chest with a broken steel sword. Luckily, it skated around his ribs. He was teaching a student while in a tshirt.

As far as hurting people goes, the level of intensity varies between schools and the weapon used. You have to modulate the force level with a full weight steel sword, especially if it's mass distribution is historically accurate since it hits ... well... like a sword. You have to compromise even more (in one way or another) for polearms since they're designed to beat armor. There's other options out there, but this is really a very long conversation which is honestly best hand in person with weapons in hand. It just makes it so much faster and with less misunderstandings (because of teh internets).

I'll post a bit more later...

[Teej]

Blossfechter, have you plugged yourself with the FFA (Florida Foam-fighter's Association) yet? You'd probably have your best bet there as your message will get to Belegarth and three other large organizations, roughly 500 active fighters in the state of FL. I live in Lake Mary and would be willing to drive down to Tampa once in a while myself.

I can also get you our event information if you would like to come set up a demo - you'd be more than welcome to at one of my events at least.

Website: http://floridafoamfighters.com/
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/109442846340/

[Forkbeard]

So you pull you hits, although you fight hard enough to snap sttel swords, although I suspect this is easier than it sounds. I imagine the quality of the steel blades it the problem.
Anyway, the idea of pulling my hits has never sat well with me.
We aren't truly competing if I have to pull my hits. When two people of equal skill fight, but are pulling their hits for safety, the one who wins is the one who come closest to being unsafe. By not pulling their hits QUITE as much to get that extra quickness, for example.
Also, I am a really large guy. Not fat, just huge. There is alot more of me to hit. Your strike zones are about half the size of mine. It is my natural disadvantage. It comes with 2 very cool natural advantages: reach(that translates to speed, for me) and strength. If I am in a contest where I must pull my hits, I can niether use my strength to beat you into a position I like, nor can I really use my speed as it is backed by a not inconsiderable amount of strength.
Pulling my hits is not fair to me at all. It is purely biased towards the people teaching me and the people in the good graces of the refferees.
Full contact combat is fun becasue we get to use all of our natural abilities AND awesome fighting techniques like the ones in your classes. Have you guys ever considered safer weapons so that you can actually fight?
FB

[Blossfechter]

* FB: The style of steel sword, having it get bent multiple times, and it being made in China are all reasons for them snapping. They are fairly flexible in the ends. I've fought with more 'robust' blades too, but you actually do have to modulate your force levels (pulling strikes).
On force, we fight full speed with the weighted plastic swords and some steel swords, just not full force against the person. What I mean is we are fighting at full speed, but do not follow through on a hit to the other person (though to the blade is fine). First, there is no need to do so since you have already bypassed their defenses if you are hitting them. Second, you don't have to hit that hard to do devastating damage with a sword. We do test cutting as well against tatami which is supposedly close to the same density as a body. You would be surprised at how little force is necessary when you cut properly. Speed is more important than force in almost all cases. There are times you need more force than normal, but it isn't always a given.
Now, I am almost always bruised every week of the year. We don't fight lightly. I'm usually fighting as fast as I can move. There is a difference between striking through something and striking to something. We just strike to the person.
We've gone through a lot of different weapons trying to find the best compromise. Foam does not allow (though some are better than others) something called 'winding'. Winding happens after the blades meet and you wind against/around their blade to cut or stab them. Foam weapons also slow down your strikes because of their thickness and wind resistance. Steel has it's limitations as well. A real steel sword does not bend on the thrust. You have to make compromises for that because thrusts can be devastating in sparring. There's a lot of different simulators out there that have differing limitations.

I've never heard of the FFA. I'll look into it.

I'll post some videos later.

[Forkbeard]

I have been watching your video's.
It's true that you cannot do proper winding with foam sword, and our combat doesn't lend itself to that style anyway. I wish it did.
However, you are pulling your hits. Saying you can hit a weapon full force, but you need to pull you hits against a person, and on all stabs, but you are fighting full streght and speed, is a deal breaker for me. You can not possible be fighting full force AND pulling your hits at the same time. You can beb trained to compete in a stylized system, though. Look at any kendo class.Sword work, yes, sword FIGHTING no.
I'm interested in learning more about what some guys in germany thought about sword fighting, and how they trained, but learning forms and katas and stuff only goes so far.
FB

[Blossfechter]

I have been watching your video's.
It's true that you cannot do proper winding with foam sword, and our combat doesn't lend itself to that style anyway. I wish it did.
However, you are pulling your hits. Saying you can hit a weapon full force, but you need to pull you hits against a person, and on all stabs, but you are fighting full streght and speed, is a deal breaker for me. You can not possible be fighting full force AND pulling your hits at the same time. You can beb trained to compete in a stylized system, though. Look at any kendo class.Sword work, yes, sword FIGHTING no.
I'm interested in learning more about what some guys in germany thought about sword fighting, and how they trained, but learning forms and katas and stuff only goes so far.
FB

By your definition, you aren't sword fighting either. You don't hit to the head, right? One of the most optimal targets for ending a real sword fight is a strike to the head. I'll stop short of saying it's the best because the arm/hand is an easier target to hit, and it can render a huge disadvantage if the part that was holding the sword is now on the ground. But, even still, the head is a primary target.

I'm not trying to call you out, but every system you fight in other than actually fighting someone has flaws to varying degrees. I fight in the one I think has the most advantages and the least disadvantages for what I think is the best fight simulation and so do you. No biggie.

I still think you're idea of our 'pulling hits' is far removed from reality. Every tournament I've been to has had someone break a part of their hand. Whether it's a finger, thumb, or metacarpal bone...

Anyway, my username on youtube is 'thekriegschool'. It only has video of the most recent tournament videos of me and my students (which was a small regional tournament). There's some other videos on my personal channel which the username is 'blossfechter'. It has some older stuff from other tournaments.

As far as the European groups, I've fought a few of their top fighters (who have won multiple pan-European tournaments) in American tournaments. Though, I don't think I've fought any Germans yet though.

I agree though, forms and katas will only take you so far. Thankfully, my group has a balance of training with structured drills (a small amount mainly for new people/new material), competitive drills (more or less sparring with certain goals/restrictions to isolate particular skills), sparring, and bouting. Sparring and bouting are a bit different, but both are free fights without restrictions including grappling/kicks/pommel strikes/etc. Certain things are always restricted due to the damaging nature of the techniques. An example is the mortschlag. A mortschlag is where you're holding the blade and using the hilt as a short polearm (more or less). Getting hit with the cross like that is just too dangerous for the gear we use.

[Arrakis]

You aren't fighting with intent. Intent is the key, not allowed target areas.

[Forkbeard]

Also, Injuries does not equal hard fighting. It just means your weapons are not safe enough for what you are doing with them.

I am not trying to be mean here, dude. I'm just stating the differences between our systems. I'm asking how you handle certain situations in fighting.

FB

[Forkbeard]

I've been thinking alot about this.
I believe Arrakis is it right. It's all about intent.
I your system the intent is on performing within the parameters defined by your matrial art. You hold back on hitting the person you are fighting in favor of manuevering for a supirior position in the fight. When that position is achived, or you opponent fails enough in their defense for you to put your balde on them, the fight is won(or lost).

In our full contact system, the intent is to strike you opponent in such a way as to KILL them. There are no rules save avoiding hitting the head and actually punching or kicking your opponent. My intent when I fight is to KILL my opponent. Not to perform in such a way as to score points, or to prove that I can master a manuver. I simply need to hit you correctly and hard.

As you say, every system of fighting has it's drawbacks and advantages. I vastly prefer a system that allows me to use any and all of my skills and physical attributes to win. I also prefer a system where I regularly need to defend myself against mulitple opponents. I LOVE fighting 4-5 people by myself.
I would really like to give your fighting a try. I believe I will buy a mask some time soon. When I find a cheap one that fits and is NOT used(wearing other peoples helmets is gross). It seems like I would benifit from learning some of your points on defense(I am a very offensive fighter). I learn all kinds of important **** every time I fight SCA that make my Bel fighting better. I'm sure fighting in your style will help in areas I haven't thought of.
FB

[Blossfechter]

Well, here's where we'll just have to agree to disagree. There's a difference between hitting as hard as you can and hitting with intent. If you try cutting with a sharp weapon, hitting as hard as you can make it harder to cut through (due to less precise edge alignment) and much more difficult to recover afterward (in case you miss in a fight). We fight with plenty of intent. Sometimes, I'll hit someone in the hands lighter than I could otherwise. However, it's harder to hit someone lighter and not get hit in return because you've intentionally slowed down the follow through. Going slower against someone going full speed isn't an advantage. I mention getting hit in return due to the fact we fight with something called the nachschlag which means 'after strike'. Historically, there's many many many mentions of people getting struck with blades and continuing to fight. In tournaments back then, they fought up to 10 'beats' or strikes/steps after the first blow. If you were hit after your initial strike, it was considered shameful. We only fight to one beat after though. Double hits are also heavily penalized because both people failed.

I'd say that 'intent' is very much involved with the allowable target areas and 'intent' with which one fights. If I intended to kill someone, the primary place I'd hit them is in the head. Maybe that's just me... If you want to try targeting the head, why don't you get some sparring masks for boxing that have face shields and try fighting with the head included. Those masks wouldn't ruin your weapons. It changes the way the fight works.

[Forkbeard]

Have you ever fought in our system? Against real veteran fighters? You should. Give it a real chance and see what we have to offer.
I plan to seek your people here and do the same.
let's continue this after we see what we think of each each others systems.
fb

[Blossfechter]

Have you ever fought in our system? Against real veteran fighters? You should. Give it a real chance and see what we have to offer.
I plan to seek your people here and do the same.
let's continue this after we see what we think of each each others systems.
fb

Sounds good to me. If you need help finding a good school in you area, send me a PM with your location. I know of a lot of schools/people. Remember, of course, every school/club is different with different amounts of experience in each. If you go to a new group, they may not be able to show you a clear picture of what's in the manuals.