Missiles, reusable or no?

[Palantir30]

The subject has been brought up in several different threads dealing about other issues, so I just thought it was time for a thread to discuss just this issue.

1) Why do you think arrows should or should not be reusable?

2) Does the same consideration apply to javelins in your opinion?

3) Should any other change be made to how missile weapons interact?

I'll leave my comments till later because I've already carped on this a couple times in this forum

[skel]

i think they should be allowed to be reused becuase, as far as reenacting goes which is sort of what we call our group, medieval reenactment... arrows could be fired as many times as the archer could get them. unless they were broken after they were fired. but i mean, you could say that arrows could be broken in the game too i guess, like you would break a bow. even though it would get hard to keep track.

i just see no logical reason as to why they shouldnt be reusable. same with javalines, you could easily chuck it at one person, kill them,. then pull it from their throat and chuck it at another person...

[Plithut]

I believe that they should be reusable because the vast majority of people do not have a problem with it. Being an archer I know that I do not like to take more than 6 arrows out to the feild, after 6 there are just too many arrows to do anything with, they get in the way. The same goes for javelins, many more people would cry out if there was a new rule for javs, plus realistically most of the javs could be used again. And yet again I think that the current rules for missle weapons should stay the same.

[Angmarth]

Arrows should not be reusable. An acceptable compromise would be to mark YOUR arrows so as not to make them reusable. Currently it is an accepted (and intellegent) tactic to simply go on the field with a bow and pick up the arrows shot to return fire. This is REDICULOUS. Arrows are the most expensive thing we make. The time involved, cost of materials, and delicacy with which we check them makes it SILLY for someone else to use my things. Battles are far better when missiles are non-reusable. We do not use reusables in Arnor, for these reasons.

1) Game balance.
2) Expense of missiles.
3) We want the archers to make good shots.
4) We want the archers to learn how to fight when they have no arrows left. (This has little to do with the discussion at hand, merely one of the reasons we don't allow them.)

[Forkbeard]

I love re-useable arrows. I don't want it to change. BUT,,
I really agree with Angmarth's reasons for them not being reusable and maybe think it would be worth a try in a big battle.
Javlins always should be reusable. I've never seen enough Jav's on the feild to warrant any restrictions on them.
FB

[Derian]

I'm in agreance with Forkbeard. I've heard it argued that were archers carrying real arrows, they'd have 50-100 or more instead of six. So I'm in favor of reusables, but Angmarth is right, arrows are hella expensive, and I've seen them broken all the time - usually by someone who doesn't own them. Some kind of marking on the nock or shaft of the arrow might serve well to mark is as a "non reusable" or what have you.

[Plithut]

Personally the biggest thing that breaks arrows (IMO) is people stepping on them. Currently the way things are the arrows are being constantly moved around so I think they pose a less threat to being broken now rather than if they were used only once. For people breaking arrows, everyone of my arrows that was broken by someone else they usually asked me if I wanted the money for the arrow. I think that one of the biggest things the archers take into consideration when they go out onto the feild is that there is a huge chance that they will not return from it with as many arrows as they started out with.

[Freyson]

Arrows should be one shot only. There are all of Angmarth's reasons, plus the fact that about 50% of real arrows fired in a battle were ruined afterward. About the only arrows that were re-usable were the ones ripped carefully (or not so carefully) out of flesh, any that hit something hard (like the ground) broke or bent. We're not talking aluminum or carbon fiber out of a 35lbs. bow here, we're talking about WOOD out of bows up to 100lbs. Making arrows one shot only would make them last longer and stop the cheese scavengers.

Javelins and rocks are a totally different matter. It would be difficult to determine whether a javelin was dropped by someone who was using it as a spear and died, or was thrown. Rocks could be found lying around the battle grounds anyways, so any of our rocks laying around could be considered fair game.

[Satanaka]

I would tend to agree that arrows COULD be fired one time.

I would add the reason that: we would have faster battles because it would not be a few people running around for 30 minutes- just picking up arrows and shooting at each other....
I agree with many of the reasons above. BUT- I don't arrows to go to being non-reusable.

BUT- when it comes to Javalins or rocks- these should have unlimited use in game....
A Javalin would NOT break so easy as well as the numbers are not as great as arrows...


S

[Snotbelly]

Re-usable missle weapons DO prolong battles. They also sway the battle for the team with more (or better) archers. The idea of breakable arrows is too difficult to maintain without additional heralds. Heralds who's sole job is to remove arrows from field? Allready heralds are few and far between, in ratio with fighters. (sorry for the rhetorical question)

My theory-

Re-usable missle weapons are good for reducing the time of long battles, but heralds should call non-reusables towards the end of a fight to speed it up.

[Satanaka]

As Snotbelly said- already on a field of over 200 people fighting- we might have 5 heralds. Increasing the ratio would help with many problems...


S

[Borric]

I also agree with Angmarth's take on missle reusables. However, I also want to expand on the javelins.

I am not a big fan of the toiletbowl manuevering, and I am not a fan of people fighting over ground to gain a jav. (It happens a lot). Especially as a spearman, I am dealing with javs all the time. I appreciate the kill, if there is one, if the thrower aims and throws. Its a one shot deal, hit or miss. (At least in Numenor anyhow.) Then people can get so bogged down about regaining javs as supposed to killing people or supporting their lines. I've seen it happen so many times in missile-reusable battles.)

[Thorondor]

Re-usables aren't the best way to speed up a battle. If the battle needs to speed up, call no re-usables. I fight with 3 arrows at once *in Arnor* and it keeps me going with melee skills. Dual weapons, weapon/shield, red, etc. If it's on the field, I will pick it up to use during the battle. Three shots, when I'm able to take 3 for 3 as kills in every battle for the entire day, I might argue with Angmarth to let me have another arrow for fighting during the day. By that time, Arnor will have 20+ people on each side and that extra arrow will be useful.

Until that time, I'll get 3 of 3 kills with arrows.
My thoughts:
Rocks = reusable (they are rocks for goodness sakes) Javs = can go either way. Arrows = shouldn't be reusable. (See Angmarth's post)

~?~

[Forkbeard]

Borric, thiat sound like a disipline problem, not a game play problem. If people are failing to support their team to go after Jav's, it's not the Jav's fault.
FB

[GvK]

The simple answer to this question is YES and NO to resuable missile weapons. That is, in some realms and battle types their reuse makes complete sense. For example, get 30-40 people who know each other well in a field fight than re-use makes the battles a bit better in my opinion. In larger realms and battles, the arrow breakage issue becomes a real factor but it also becomes a REAL time issue and can drag out fights in a big way.

Regardless, IMIO, those who make and/or buy arrows and use then had better be resigned to losing/breaking the occasional arrow. In otherwords, just because arrows are expensive and difficult to make and maintain, does not mean their users should be afforded a special rule to protect their investment.

As in all foam fighting, first comes safety, we've all seen arrows get stepped on and damaged in big channelized fights, so imposing a no reuse policy in such battles makes sense (with heralds pulling out spent arrows constantly). The time issue of battles dragging out gets into playability. The distant third argument for reuse is based on realism that archers typically carried socres of arrows as oposed to 6-10 usually carried. On the flip side of the realism issue, most arrows WOULD get lost, damaged, or rendered unusable for quick gleaning on a real battlefield so these two realism issues largely cancel each other out.

So, as an archer with 30+ arrows, I love to see no reuse battles because it gives me an advantage in terms of how many arrows I can fire and it definitley helps protect my arrows to some extent. But when I'm not arching, reuse battles means I'm going to get shot at a LOT more...

[Borric]

Forkbeard-
You are correct in saying that it is a discipline problem. In my experience, it happens a lot with newbies and those who, living in missle reusable realms are accostomed to picking up and throwing javs repeatedly. However, insofar as they don't support their team, this usually happens more in cutthroat battles, or when the team has been whittled down to no more than 5 or so people.

[Jikanta]

I would prefer if arrows were nationally non-reusable. I go onto the field with a dozen arrows, and there might be ten dudes on the other team each with a bow and one or two arrows, and after they run out of their own they're shooting mine back at me. That's *, and YES, the are expensive and difficult to make, so it really * me off when my **** gets all busted up and I've hardly used it.

The worst is the castle battles. I start with my dozen arrows and fire them all, and when I go to collect them I can only find half. That's because the * on the other team have fired the other half into the underbrush and they don't give two **** that they lost my stuff, and they very rarely help me find them again. That **** * me off too.

So yeah, I'm all about non-reusable arrows. I mean, *I* hardly ever run out, so why should people with too few arrows of their own get the benefit of me having plenty? **** those *, make them build or buy their own **** and stop using mine.

[Jerlaine]

first off yes. only pansies don't want them reused. first off if the other guys use them aganst you tough. I know what it is like so don't complain. second learn to mark your arrows in a certain way to show thier yours so no one else can try to steel them. but I do agree that if they use them they should help find them or leave the field for a minimum of 2 battles. If they break them then they can pay to fix them and so on. in other words quit *. I get on here to get away from that.

[Mawr]

I have no problems with arrows being reused, considering the way in which they are constructed, it is prohibitive for an archer to take a realistic quantity of arrows onto the field without being needlessly burdened.

Maybe I'm just lucky, but at events where there is a sizeable group of archers on the other team, I rarely die from an arrow. And I'm a big fat guy, for chrissakes.

And before anybody can say it, yeah maybe they don't want to waste the arrow.

[Jikanta]

...Jerlaine, Is that post meant as a direct response to me personally? Or just to everyone generally?

[Dr. Kazi]

...you get onto this forum to get away from people complaining about stuff they don't like? Interesting.

I wouldn't cry if arrows were non-reusable, i understand where the archers are coming from there (especialy the arrows being fired into the bushes )

Besides, archery is annoying enough, and Izareth is right, it cuts down on the weapon diversity.

[V-Hil]

Well Jerlaine,
I guess I am a pansy as well as quite few others. That's a pretty bold statement from someone who has only posted just over 2 dozen times. Just because your opinion goes against what others say doesn't mean you have to resort to name calling (even though it was just pansy).

I would suggest
1) You spell "steal" correctly
2) Argue a little better than "deal with it" and "quit *"
3) How the hell you gonna track down who broke the arrow so they can pay for it
4) Try explaining your background. For ex. I know Jikanta fights with bow and arrow quite a bit. I currently think alot more of her expert opinion regarding arrow breakage than yourl "deal with it" attitude.

Watch out because I am powertripping moderator who will kick you out of this forum if you can't contribute anything better than what you posted.

I think we should either have non-reusables or each archer is required to bring 6-8 arrows out before they can bring out a bow. That is a compromise at the very least.

[Jikanta]

Thanks V-Hil!

I've never really had a problem with my arrow shafts breaking. I use Cabela's graphite shafts; they have enough flex that people can step on them and they don't break, unlike many aluminum or wooden arrow shafts. Really I loose almost all of my arrows to being shot stray at events, not breaking or falling apart.

I purposely try to shoot my (and others') arrows so if I miss they won't land in the brush or trees, or hit spectators, etc... I will waste a few seconds and run around to a different angle, or find a different target.

[AnThrax]

I am for anything that limits arrows. again just a humble newbe thought.

When some one gets shot by a archer the only one that gets any thing out of it is the ARCHER who gets a JOLLY that they hit you from 30 yards away in the back or head while you were in engaged in combat 1 on 1.

When you die fighting HARD CORE one on one or in a small group, you LEARN from your killer, you admire his moves and skill, you make mental notes, you see your weakness, you vow to improve.

I know people will say that it is a skill to see the whole field at all times, and maybe that skill will come to me some day, but it sucks to be in a great battle killing Orcs left and right and feal a slight tap in your side or back, perplexed because no one was there and then you hear Jikanta from across the field yell Thrax you die now.


I like the Blix archer method He shoots one or two drops the Vile thing and then goes and kicks butt, (how does 135# guy swing that hard?)

Thrax
671 years old ( big and easy target)

[Mawr]

So there is more skill involved in fighting someone one on one than by firing an unwieldy object with a low-draw bow from 90 feet and hitting a small area of a moving target?

Perspective, man, perspective.

[Thorondor]

I have to agree with V-Hil and Jikanta here. I would like to see non-reusuable arrows in general because when you fire your arrow into the bushes you either
1) go look for it and call yourself dead
2) remember where it went so you can find it
3) don't shoot it into the bushes in the first place.


Jerlaine, if someone is STEALING arrows, they need to be dealt with by more than just the archer who marks their arrows so they will know who they belong to. Any archer who doesn't mark their arrows need to learn to do so. Be it loosing them, or being yelled at by someone else who also doesn't mark their arrows, etc.

V-hil is powerhungry, that's how he is

Toss out some suggestions or agree with people. Make your post a VALID argument and that will help. Valid - says something is wrong, supports why it is wrong, offers ideas on something else that would be correct.

~Thor~

[Tor]

I get tired of seeing newbs break my ****. Unfortunately, that's the way it works when you use missile weapons in this game. You shoot into a crowd and headshot a guy, that arrow's as good as toast from the trampling it's going to get. Same goes with javs. I love a good javelin, and I treat mine almost as good as my kids, so when I take them on the field, it pains me to see some moron grab it and use it as a parrying weapon.

I'd like to see a limit on reuse, but what I'd really like to see is an increase in respect for other people's equipment. That'd fix a lot more.

[Snotbelly]

Jikanta, I agree that arrows are expensive. I agree archers that use other archers' arrows are nine times out of ten ENTIRELY inconsiderate. I would however like to say arrows are broken by fighters much more often than by other archers. Stepping on arrows is, I believe, the number one cause of an arrow's demise.

V'Hil requiring a minimum limit on arrows, makes the use of archery a financial based system. I would be willing to wager most of our poor college kids, and high school age fighters, cannot afford to buy arrows, and replace broken ones to a minimum number. It's simply unfair to make money an issue in our game.

[Angmarth]

I will agree with SB that it would be jaded towards those with less money and make archery more of a "Sport of Kings". However I do not see this as a problem. Forcing an archer to have a minimum of 6 arrows simply means that if he can't make/buy his own he will have to borrow from a friend. If he can't borrow them, then he doesn't arch. Pretty simple. This also means that if you didn't walk on the field with the bow, you can't pick it up. I also think this is a good thing. Bows, like arrows, are a piece of equipment that is EXPENSIVE and requires the utmost of respect by those it does not belong to.

We don't discriminate on other things that cost money, i.e. armor. If you can't afford to either make/buy your own we don't require everyone else to take theirs off. It is a simple matter of mindset change that will force a compromise to an issue that I believe most archers would rather see. Either no reusables, or you have to have x-arrows to arch.

Having spent THOUSANDS of dollars on this game over the last 7 years I can tell you that I have a definate investment in how the equipment is both treated and used by others.

[Skorr]

I wouldn't ever pick up someone's bow from the field without first asking the person, whereas anything else I will just yank and walk away with unless they specifically stop me and tell me not to. How much do arrows cost to make? We could institute some kind of "You break it/lose it, you buy it" policy for arrows, would that solve the issue? And if you don't have the two dollars or whatever to replace arrows then you can barter with the person.

[Angmarth]

I believe the materials on arrows range from $5-$10, depending on the quality of the arrow materials and craftsmanship. It is hard to put a price on someones time for something, but when it comes to making our equipment I think that a $10 per hour base is reasonable.

[Alom]

But how often is the tip broken that it can't be pulled off and stuck on another shaft, Angmarth.

[Angmarth]

I am honestly unsure of how arrows are normally damaged. I buy/make arrows and my realm uses my arrows, but don't personally don't use them often. (I am designated as a tank, no archery for me.) Jikanta and the others who arch are far more qualified to make those distinctions.

[Dr. Kazi]

Arrow heads are cheap. Its just the godawful, finger-cramping labor.

[Jikanta]

You can buy an Edhellen arrow kit, complete with directions, for only $2. Just add your own shafts, you can probably get some inexpensive ones at your local hunt and fish store.

http://edhellen.com/materials.html

[Andrek]

I suggest reuse everything.

I supported no reusable arrows until I thought about how many more I can quiver without the foam heads. So I sit well with reuse on those.

Javelins could easily be reused in battle if they did not hit their target.

Rock could be found anywhere so just leave them alone.

[Winfang]

Rocks are * weapons and I would be more then happy if they where banished altogther.

[Snotbelly]

Rocks are * weapons and I would be more then happy if they where banished altogther.

[Jikanta]

Yeah rocks ARE * weapons.

[Tor]

Rocks are * weapons because I'm too fat and slow to dodge, and I would be more then happy if they where banished altogther.

Reworded for clarity because Forkbeard's a * and I'm a retarded tool.

Reworded by Winfang, again

[V-Hil]

Mr. Belly wrote:

V'Hil requiring a minimum limit on arrows, makes the use of archery a financial based system. I would be willing to wager most of our poor college kids, and high school age fighters, cannot afford to buy arrows, and replace broken ones to a minimum number. It's simply unfair to make money an issue in our game.

I disagree with that statement entirely. Money will only play a part in it if the person wants to fight with the bow and arrow (as well as with armor and other expensive equipment).

Being an archer can be expensive, especially if you own a good bow and a dozen arrows. The price for that is they become more of a threat on the battlefield. They are paying for this advantage/killing power with their money. Those that only carry two arrows or none onto the field are taking advantage of those who put the money into their equipment. I think is unfair to make those with money (or arrows) provide the equipment for those who can't afford to make their own.

That is why compromising with X amount of arrows before bringing a bow onto the field is a good idea. To make the freeloading archers put some of their missiles on the field and let their stuff get broken just like everyone else.

Another thing: I don't like using my javelins at national events because the stuff I built and paid for is being used by other people more than me (and getting broken/lost). I don't want to pay for everyone's use of my equipment.

[Mercer]

Agreed; if you want the power, pay the price rather than scavenging off other people's work-and-money.

My stuff never leaves my hands, except if (a) the person asks and (b) I trust them not to bust it.

[Forkbeard]

Hey, *, leave me outa this.
FB

[Derian]

Jesus Christ! You guys all need to take a deep breath and relax.

[Skorr]

How often do arrows break from being fired?
Why is compensating for lost or broken arrows not legitimate?
Why not complain about weapon checkers being able to rip open one arrow from each batch to examine how they are made?

[Thorondor]

Arrows - CHEAPEST nice shafts I have seen are $40/dozen. That's for shafts alone. Add in the arrow kits from Edhellen that's $24/dozen for tips. That is at min $5.3333333/arrow. That doesn't include time, glue, cloth, tape, etc.
So $10/arrow sounds about right. Now, my bow, is NOT used except by 2 or 3 other people. I was a special order from the company. Short recurve bow, ran me a pretty penny. I have to REALLY know and trust the person to use it. And they all know it's a you break it, you buy it piece of equipment. If they are using it, they KNOW what it cost me.

I've had 2 arrows broken while being shot by other people. Lost 2 or 3 arrows from being stepped on. Only temp lost one for a day from someone shooting it into the brush - was found the next day though.

Skorr - along the same lines, why not let weapon checkers rip apart your sword to see how it's made? And the same for your shield...

Having at least 6 arrows on the field at once isn't a bad compromise. If you borrow arrows from a friend, you still have them on the field at once. Would give at LEAST 6arrows/bow on the field at once.

I can carry 10-12 arrows with my "quiver" and still be mobile. So saying 6 is too many, it isn't unless you are just lazy.

But how often is the tip broken that it can't be pulled off and stuck on another shaft, Angmarth.

Tips don't die too often. But replacing tips on arrows is just about the same amount of work (if not more) than replacing the entire arrow head.
The glue, duct tape, etc makes it a pain to replace the arrow heads. The only thing worth saving is the actual open cell on the end. The rest is just as easy to totally replace IMO.

Hope that helps some,
~Thor~

[Forkbeard]

Settle down Derian, Fang knows I'm **** with him.
FB

[Skorr]

Skorr - along the same lines, why not let weapon checkers rip apart your sword to see how it's made? And the same for your shield...

Because weapon checkers are currently allowed to dismantle one arrow.

[Mawr]

Rocks are * weapons and I would be more then happy if they where banished altogther.

Oh come on, you know you loved the monkey rocks from Winter War '02.

[Winfang]

No because I was afraid of what the Lemurs, like Mollypop, had done with them before hand.