I had a random brainstorm - what would people think of this?

1.4.8.5 All arrows must have at least a single wrap of contrasting tape at the 18 inch draw mark.

This would give a visual and tactile indicator of half draw. It would make it a little easier for marshals to spot people who are overdrawing, and a lot easier for archers to avoid accidentally overdrawing or overestimating where half draw is.

Of course, where exactly half draw is located is up for debate. Assuming you call it half of the total draw length, it would be brace height + 1/2(28 - brace height) or 14 + .5*(brace height). This rule as written then assumes a brace height of 8", which seems pretty common, though not universal.

Anyway, seems to me like adding a single loop of tape to an arrow won't do much to harm its flight characteristics or cause it to misfire or hurt the shooter or anything, but could do a lot to help enforce the half draw rule. What do people think?

The math you put up is complicated and, IMO, unnecessary.

Simply putting a marker at 14" should be sufficient and after the intent of the half draw rule. If someone has a bow (or arrows, for that matter) that will only draw 24" instead of 28", having them pull 12" vs. 14" is unnecessary.

That said, it seems like a good change.

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that the mark should be bow-dependent, just that actual half draw is, and the brace height aspect is why I put 18" instead of 14", even though 14" is half of 28", 18" is half the draw of 28" on a 8" brace bow. 14" is actually less than 1/3rd draw.

That'd probably really be a matter for playtesting, though, since as it is no one knows how far they're actually drawing when they half draw in the first place.

measured from nock or striking surface?

from the nock, just like the draw stop.

Our realm thinks this is a really good idea and is going to play test it. Probably, with 18inch as half way mark. We'll let you know how it turns out.

this is great. 18" is a very good place to start. there are complex maths involved, but a bows strenght is not linear in its strength, but instead it is exponential in the weight going up over distance of draw. so a 20 inch draw has much less than 20/28, or 71% of the energy at 28" draw.

mount a bow at a 30* angle up, set up a draw with repeatable results, use a mechanical release. measure the distance the arrow flies and record the distance per 2" incrament of draw. you will see what i am saying. go all the way to 28 inches of draw.

if i have time i will make a machine. i will post the data. i would video it but i think we can rely on the honor system.

You really think that someone is going to take the time to check if they're making the mark every time?

Once again I think we're making a needless complication. In my estimation the "half-draw" rule is fairly self explanatory, it lets people know that they shouldn't be shooting full force when they're in close and it seems like it does that as well as is possible.

They already check for a 28 inch draw stop, it's just a second piece of tape on a picnic table. You're over reacting.

I meant the people drawing arrows, not the weapon checkers.

What I'm saying is that I don't see this as being a very great value. It wouldn't be a big deal to do, just a needless complication.

It take 11 seconds to measure an arrow and put some tape on it, and if it keeps even one random jackass from hurting someone somehow, I don't think it's needless at all.

Sure, it'll probably never make a difference, but why not do it anyway?

If someone is going to pull past 1/2 draw, a single piece of tape isn't going to prevent it. When I'm arching I start by nocking the arrow, and then I might be looking down the arrow, but I don't really see it, it's got useless information on it. I honestly don't see how this would prevent someone from hurting someone in the slightest. If you choose to do this on your own arrows, fine, but I don't think a rule making others do it would be in the least bit helpful.

14" is not even close to half draw.

28" is measured, oddly enough, to the FRONT of the bow. The actual power stroke- the only part of the length that matters- is the ~19" it's drawn back.

So you might think a half draw would be letting off 9.5". But you'd be wrong.

Energy is force over a distance and in a recurve bow force has a linear rise, it graphs out as a triangle. The bottom line is that with that profile, the amount of energy stored is the square of the stroke it's drawn over.

Therefore, to get half the energy, you'd let off about 5.5", or 22.5" down the entire shaft length.

"Half" is generally mistaken anyways. Measured testing shows 2.5" arrows, even a poor flat-faced designs shot from the fastest 35# bows, only lose about 25% of their energy in the first 20ft. Not half. So either the reduction should be a lot less than half, or the range where it needs to be reduced is actually further out, to make these a similar hit.

IMHO it's misguided to try to call some point on the arrow as "half". One is the reason given above. Two is there's vast differences in bows anyways, some of the cheap kid's bows are so weak, even when full-drawn, they need to be fairly close to even "work" effectively. But the reality is there's no line at 20ft. At 18ft it's not completely unsafe and 22ft it's completely safe (and comfortable) to take fulldraws. In reality there's under 5% of difference between these distances due to drag so the let-off doesn't need to be very much to make it hit the same. It's something people need to gauge along with the actual distance.

1/2 draw is an estimate, just like 1/2 throw on a Jav. Marking an arrow with tape wont stop anything, since you aren't looking at the arrow when you fire, you are looking at the target (I hope).

One of the ways we prevent injury is to ~not~ allow archery as a method of fighting until the second year. This allows for plenty of time to absorb the melee conventions and become a fair player. Secondly we train our archers, and test them before allowing them on the field. The test is a simple verbal test to see the archer knows the rules associated with archery, and finally the distance test. We ask them to show us how close they can be and still fire full draw, and also what 1/2 draw is to them. We make whatever adjustments are necessary at that time to the fighter so they wont be unsafe on the field.

I wouldn't expect this to stop anyone from overdrawing if they want to. However, the reason I suggest using a single loop of tape instead of, say, just marking it with a sharpie, is that it would potentially give the archer a tactile clue that they've drawn past 18" (or where ever) even though they aren't looking at their arrow.

What this could do is:
1) Serve as a safe warning that you might be overdrawing, hopefully preventing accidental overdraws
2) Make it easier for a marshal to spot intentional overdraws
3) Create a more consistant standard for archers on what half draw actually is.

This discussion has already shown that there are a wide range of opinions on what exactly half draw is or should be. I think this rule would obviously need plenty of playtesting, both to ensure that the mark wouldn't substantially interfere with the arrow and also simply to find what a safe half draw really should be.

I also don't propose explicitly tying this mark to any other rules - that is, the mark may or may not be half draw on your bow, and it may or may be a safe draw to fire at in any given situation - all it is is a guide and an alert.

I for one have heard lots of people complain about getting shot from overdrawn arrows at close range. It happens and no one likes it, but it's hard to do anything about as is. This rule wouldn't prevent anyone from continuing to do that if they wanted to, but I think it could go a long way to preventing it from happening on accident.

And hell, maybe it won't work or we won't be able to come to a consensus on what half draw actually is, but it sure seems to me like it's worth testing out.

Soo - I personally fully support mandatory archer training, though fighting for a full year first seems like a lot, but that seems like something that's much better handled by individual realms or events.

I have been doing this for a long time.

Wicked good statement, now try with something more relevant.

Chicken, a year up here is really only about 6-7 months of fighting, the rest of teh year, rain snow and extreme cold stop us. So a year is really only about 1/2 that amount of experience on the field. If we fought all year, we would prolly only hold people to a 6 month standard.

I find that it makes it easier to adjust my draw. when having to switch targets at the last minute. it helps end arguments like are you sure that was 1/2 draw? by adjust power moving your bow hand, you can keep the nock by you check improving your aim.

You may be surprised to find out how much difference it makes to shoot someone running towards you versus standing still or running away.

Initially it seems insignificant, doesn't it? But now a good sprint can be 20fps (Olympic sprinters 30 fps). And impact energy increases with the SQUARE of relative velocity.
So say we have a big, heavy, slow arrow with a 95fps fulldraw speed. Half draw should be about 67 fps.

Add +20 fps because they're running TOWARDS you on top of 67 fps and that's actually a 69% increase in impact energy- pretty close to fulldraw again. But if they're running away from you, it's down by 51% below a normal half-draw (which is probably beyond what most people would notice). And I've definitely noticed myself how hard it can be to get someone to notice a shot if they're running away. It's pretty light.

Now for the other end of the spectrum, the lightest, fastest arrows ever at fulldraw can be 120fps. That can gain 36% or lose 31% depending on whether they're running at or away from you.

Note this can be greater than the entire energy drop from being outside 20ft.

I do suspect experienced archers DO adjust draw based on the speed people are coming in at, even if they don't consciously realize it.

Two words for you Chicken: Fucking. Genius.

Just joking

There were actually a number of face and eye related injuries at Wolfpack Opener due to overdrawn arrows.

I noticed several people who did a full draw on their bows regardless of how far they were from their intended target. Almost all of the Holds called towards the end of the day were from people going down from arrows to the face.

I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of marking on arrows to show where the approximate half draw length would be. I think it would possibly lower the number of injuries that we see on the field. I would also like to see more people pulled off of the field for using their archery equipment in an unsafe manner. But that's just my opinion on the matter.

In doors- right? That is odd- what was the herald to fighter ratio?
I think we have failed in regards to having enough Heralds for the number of fighters. I want people to play and have fun- but I do think we need to increase the number of Heralds.

This might help with watching for more "1/2 draw shots"

What did the Heralds do- Make annoncements? Kick people off the field?

Saki, this discussion is not about the herald to fighter ratio, it's about half draw marks on arrows. Those questions are irrelevant to the current discussion.

I recommend that individual realms teach the half-draw point and practice it in a sort of, archer certification. Our realm has always required archers to have special safety training with regard to draw power, angles of deflection, and consequences if the arrow misses target and continues on. We practice by having people run at the archers and having them adjust their draw as enemies approach from different lengths. It is a good program, and it keeps archers aware of how dangerous the sport is with archery on the field.
-AoC

Personally I don't believe this had to do with overdraws.

I know I'm a little late to kick in on this, but I got hit by some arrows at WP opener that never should have been allowed on the field. I know who they belong to and I'm not naming names, but it seems like there was a serious flaw in weapons check that favored one of our veterans.

Stupid veterans. O wait...I try to pull that card at Field Day. Yeah...stupid, stupid veterans.
-AoC

Well, if the issue involves the enforcement of current half-draw rules, it makes sense to ask about the current heralding presence and how it enforces those rules. More and better heralding in general would help a lot of these issues.

$0.02

From what I've read so far #3 is the sticking point. Is a half draw 14", 18" or 22.5"? Can we agree on that?

That's what this rule will actually accomplish. It won't make anybody adjust their draw length, but it will force them to agree what a half-draw is.

Well, 22.5" on a 35# bow will take you to the equivalent of a 17# bow, and no legal arrow should hurt off a fulldrawn 17# bow. At least no more than getting shot at 30ft off from a fulldrawn 35#.

But it's pointless to set an arbitrary limit and try to be specific, since a person may have a dinky 17# kid's bow to begin with. So in that case there's no reason to ever be half-drawing. A 25# bow would only be letoff to 25" to equate a halfdrawn 35#. And it's beside the point because reality presents no specific safety threshold at 20ft. There's only a slight energy drop from 15ft to 25ft so trying to strictly enforce a 20ft rule with no basis in reality is folly.

Hmmmm.....

ive been putting this tape on my arrows from day 1, i can recall at least twice ive drawn back looked down my arrow at my target and internally said, oops and moved back to the mark, saving my target from OWW.

Im all for making it a rule.

I concur. This is a really good idea. 18 or 20 inches.

That would be wildly off. 18" will give you about 22% power. At that, you can probably throw an arrow harder. It is unlikely that someone would be able to count an arrow hitting them at that speed.

Keep in mind that you're steeply cutting into the capacity to attract cross-game players when you add arbitrary must-have-or-you-can't-play rules. Someone comes over with 50 well-built arrows and you... oh let's say Dag DID have a similar requirement, but they chose a 50% half-draw point somewhere else. So now they're all gonna have to be re-marked just for THE DAY and then re-marked again.

I wouldn't mind if there were some sense behind it, but again, there's not a lot of merit to the idea. Physically, there IS no magic safety point right there. An arrow fulldrawn at 21ft is not suddenly completely safe at 19 ft completely dangerous, and there's wild differences when we're talking quality recurves vs crappy kids' bows which won't strike too hard if you pointblank someone with a fulldraw.

I dont think anybody is disagreeing with you Oz. I am hearing a general statement about the idea of a visual reminder that can help cut down on power.
Maybe its not perfect but I'd argue it is better than doing nothing.
Perhaps a technical chart of if the bow draws x pounds then y mark. Still too many variable including different bows returning fire with the same arrow.

Loptr

Had a thought on the whole force calculation thing: people are crunching math to figure out how much "half" really is, i.e. the force translation of pounds into shot. However, it could be argued that this is an over-complication of the rules that could actually make the game less safe.

15 feet is a short distance. This is why a half-draw rule exists, to considerably reduce the force of the shot over short ranges. Low powered close-range face sniping is healthier than full-powered close range face sniping.

Recent conversations involving inch-pounds and force of hit have been raised to try and find ways of using crossbows. This is good, as crossbows have been historically harder to regulate. For crossbows, simple math could be useful. BUT - now this conversation is including the inch-pounds logic, the actual force of hit, into the conversation on regular bows and arrows. I don't believe that this is a good standard to use, simply because each bow is unique given the day/temperature/size/manufacture quality. A Little Bear kids bow cannot equate to a 35-lb longbow, period.

Plus, the inch-pounds consideration actually defeats the purpose of the original half-draw interpretation (half the length of the draw/arrow being fired) by significantly upping the poundage of the shot at close range.

(*Note* I say "Original" interpretation because this inch-pounds conversation is the first time I have ever heard the rule disputed in such a way in the five to six years I have been even peripherally engaged at the national level.)

Look at this example:


Here, it demonstrates the force differential we're dealing with. At the 18" marker, the arrow is at fifth of the draw power. At the 13"/14" marker, it could be assumed that the arrow's force has reduced again, possibly to a tenth of the power. This shot is indisputably safe at close range because the force of hit is dramatically reduced.

However, what we're talking about here is a rule interpretation that justifies more force behind the shot - upping it from a fifth or a tenth of the force to half the force of full draw. This way of interpreting the rules actually INCREASES the force of an arrow impact at close range. This is extremely risky; it changes the intent of the rule to make the shot more powerful at close range and thereby carry more risk.

The half-draw distance rule, while it may reduce force more than half, all but guarantees that each shot at close range is safe.
Safety > Realism.
Sure, kiddy bows may be at a disadvantage, but it entirely fits in with every other equipment example in our game that "you get what you pay for."
Safety > Fairness.



Side note: This is probably the same reason crossbows are nerfed: the safety vs. realism risk was weighted in favor of safety. Given a mechanism that could not be adjusted to account for distance to the target, that mechanism's force should be reduced as much as possible (even overly-so) to ensure that the shot was safe at any range. There is no minimum force rule on ranged weapons, after all.

Well, I think you're still missing the point.
The theory is that there's a specific half-draw point needed for safety. There is a rule that says that.

So some people insist they've always had it marked off and followed that essential, specific point for safety. Yet no one seems to know what that specific "magic" point even is. Many people say the 14" point, which is only 7% and that's clearly nowhere near right. Others have sworn it's the 25% point, 50% point, or ~75% point.

I'm saying two things- one, physically speaking, there's no justification for a specific draw point for anything under 20 ft. The variation in exact distance, conditions, arrows, and bow strength make a fixed "half draw" point generally meaningless. If you've got a light bow and nice, soft, legal arrows and someone is chainmail is running past you to attack someone else so you're gonna hit them in the back, you SHOULD full draw them. It's appropriate. Most players would rather have a hit they can definitively feel as long as it's not gonna bruise them. If you're gonna hit someone running towards you in the face at 25 ft, most types of "half" draw would still be too strong.

The second is that people believe there's been an existing tradition of a specific "half draw" point, when I'd say no, not really. How can it be "really important" if nobody knows what it is?

I'm not saying reducing draw for closer shots as appropriate isn't a good idea. It's a great idea. But getting anal about an arbitrary half-draw point is an enormous rules distraction.

It's just that I know how this typically goes- people get quite anal and spend all their time checking arrows for HD point markers and measuring them for legality, while not worrying so much about the head because other than diameter they're hard to measure. People will talk about everybody having to observe the HD point and measuring out 20 ft and watching other players and "busting" them. Which legitimizes the "it was clearly 25 ft, and the rules that you say must be followed to the letter say this is a legal full-draw shot".

Which is why I sum it up as a "rules distraction". It accomplishes nothing, yet distracts people away from more complex safety questions. It's a net loss to safety.