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 Post subject: A warning about long spears
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:09 pm 
Monkey
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Location: Munich, Germany
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I was recently at Sotahuuto in Finland (a similar but not quite the same battle game), and I am bringing back a warning: extra long spears will change the game, and not for the better. The Finns have managed to make modular spears, allowing them to get up to 6m (20 feet) long. Their combat is a lot more static than ours, with shieldmen being almost entirely defensive. It's still fun, but not nearly as fun as current Beledag fighting. I'm going to institute a 3m limit on spears in my realm to avoid this trap.

-Hårdgrim of Numenor/Perial of Monachium


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 Post subject: Re: A warning about long spears
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:41 am 
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Why would you try to legislate how others enjoy the game? If they can make a 20ft spear that passes, it passes by the national rules. Our game is way faster paced than theirs, so I would expect large spears to quickly get rushed and die.


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 Post subject: Re: A warning about long spears
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:55 am 
Monkey
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Have you been to Sotahuuto? Their game is every bit as fast-paced as ours when they get in close. They just don't do that so often, since most of the time is spent in spear stand-offs. They've basically had an arms race over the last 6 years or so, leading to longer and longer spears. They prevent rushing by having a mix of long and very long spears.

That said, the have some rules differences that make their spears even more powerful (a hit is a hit is a hit, no lower hit strength limit, head shots allowed). So maybe it won't work in Belegarth, or maybe the flex rule will prevent it. Just a warning that this can make the game less fun for a large swath of people.

-Hårdgrim of Numenor/Perial of Monachium


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 Post subject: Re: A warning about long spears
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:43 pm 
Hero
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Location: Arcadia, CA
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Realm: Andor
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Do archers factor into their battles like they do for Bel? One of the things that I've observed about Bel is that it has a triangular game balance structure: archers take out polearms take out shields take out archers. When archers are removed from the equation, I've seen the balance shift over to the polearms since they can break shields and go through armor with one swing. I tend to think of archers as 35 ft. spears so, regardless of how long a spear may get, an archers would still be able to out-range it.

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"...change requires action, it doesn't just happen. Define your actions by how you think the game should be, not how the game is. The game will follow."--Big Jimmy


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 Post subject: Re: A warning about long spears
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:39 am 
Monkey
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Yes, they have very good archers, too. Which means more static work for the shieldmen, protecting the spearmen from archers. But in their case, since they can't break shields (certainly not at that distance), it ends up as two walls of shields and spears stabbing each other from afar, the melee weapons mostly unused. I find that less fun than Beledag style.

As for "legislating how others enjoy the game", there are plenty of rules that are for game balance. I'm pointing out a technology that can make game balance shift for the worse.

-Hårdgrim of Numenor/Perial of Monachium


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 Post subject: Re: A warning about long spears
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:23 pm 
Hero
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This actually sounds a lot like how SCA battles develop, especially in limited-width engagements such as bridge and gate battles. Because they don't have the shield-breaking mechanic, this can be exploited by building a double-stacked wall of shields with spears and polearms in the second rank. Those battles often degenerate into a series of spears on both sides attempting to gain advantage by stabbing at the other line while the shields simply stand there and act as an impenetrable barrier. Meanwhile, all of the fighters who are behind the main activity get relegated to standing and waiting to move forward.

While 20' or more modular pikes could potentially change the battles, I think the shield-breaking aspect of Bel would help to mitigate its overall impact.

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"...change requires action, it doesn't just happen. Define your actions by how you think the game should be, not how the game is. The game will follow."--Big Jimmy


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 Post subject: Re: A warning about long spears
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:06 am 
Monkey
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Yes, that's exactly the kind of static battle I see in Finland.

That shield-breaking changes it is entirely possible, and i hope so. I've been trying to get the Finns to try out shield-breaking, but they haven't yet.

-Hårdgrim of Numenor/Perial of Monachium


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 Post subject: Re: A warning about long spears
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:29 am 
Hero
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Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2003 10:52 pm
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Location: Arcadia, CA
Started Fighting: 0- 8-1991
Realm: Andor
Unit: Clan of the Hydra
Favorite Fighting Styles: sword and board
florentine
archery
Do you have any pictures or can you explain the modular design of their spears? I'm curious about how they're able to make 20' spears without excessive flex or sag. It might also be adapted to make it easier to transport spears and/or polearms.

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"...change requires action, it doesn't just happen. Define your actions by how you think the game should be, not how the game is. The game will follow."--Big Jimmy


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 Post subject: Re: A warning about long spears
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:13 am 
Monkey
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Location: Munich, Germany
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They use different thicknesses of pipe fitting together. No idea if it can be done Beledag legal, not if it should be.

You can see some of them here, being loaded into the truck that took the team's weapons to Sotahuuto:
https://goo.gl/photos/8AG4Mmjowy1b73Q77

From earlier:
https://goo.gl/photos/J11PBmPj55SiDYWY8

Otherwise you'll have to ask on forum.sotahuuto.fi.

-Hårdgrim of Numenor/Perial of Monachium


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