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 Post subject: Grappling Definition
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:29 pm 
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3.6. Grappling is allowed.
3.6.1. Combatants may initiate Grapples with opponents according to the following rules.
3.6.1.1. A Combatant wearing no Armor may Grapple all opponents.
3.6.1.2. A Combatant wearing Leather Armor may Grapple any Armored opponent, but not unarmored opponents.
3.6.1.3. A Combatant wearing Chain Armor may Grapple opponents wearing Chain or Plate Armor.
3.6.1.4. A Combatant wearing plate Armor may not initiate a Grapple.
3.6.2. A Combatant wearing plastic safety equipment is treated as leather Armor for grappling purposes only.
3.6.3. No throws, unarmed strikes, or joint/nerve holds.
3.6.4. Combatants with Missile Weapons (Type 4, bow/arrows) may not initiate Grapples or be Grappled.


Above are all of the BOW rules on Grappling. Below are comments in the War Council forum by veterans who should know the rules. These are excerpts from the "Archers and Blocking Shots" discussion thread.

Forkbeard wrote:
I feel that grabbing other peoples weapons is a part of grapling.

Xooyan wrote:
I tend to agree with Forkbeard. Grabbing an opponent's weapon is grappling,


I am posting this here as I have never heard someone define grabbing an opponent's weapon haft as grappling, but haven't been on a Belegarth field outside of Pelargir.

So I toss the question out to the rules gurus here - is grabbing a weapon shaft or haft grappling or not? I am NOT asking about grabbing the weapon as a prelude to pulling the person in to grab control of their body or limbs - I know grabbing the person is grappling (and in my mind is the definition of grappling).

What are your thoughts or opinions on this question?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:03 pm 
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I feel that grabbing weapons is part of grapling because in other, light combat games I've participated in, grapling was illeagle and grabbing weapons was illeagle as it usually leads to body-grabbing :eek: .
No one should misunderstand. I wouldn't change our grapling rules for the world. One of the reason I joined Dag/Bel was becasue I could grab peoples weapons and they could try to graple me.
Context is important to the issue at hand. The question was, "should archers be able to grab opponents weapons?". I say NO for the same reasons archers can't graple, it's unsafe to tangle up with another person with all those sharp ends around(ie arrow nocks and bow ends). I stand by this.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 2:32 pm 
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I would have to agree and disagree both.

First - I agree totally with FB and archers shouldn't be allowed to grab anyone's weapon. Mostly because of the safety issues of bow ends and arrow nocks.

Now to disagree. I feel that grabbing an opponent's weapon shaft isn't initiating a grapple.

I've seen (and heard of) people grabbing spear shafts and trying to disarm the spear user (shieldman for this). Now, if the spearman has NO armor and someone wearing leather greaves does this, there are many different thinkgs that could happen.
  • 1) Spearman tries to leg the shieldman who has the spear by the shaft.
  • 2) Spearman pulls the spear out of the shieldman's grasp
  • 3) Spearman rushes the shieldman and tries to kill them with a sidearm.
  • 4) Shieldman rushes the spearman and tries to kill them.
  • 5) Shieldman rushes the spearman - spearman initiates a grapple to try to kill the shieldman.
  • 6) One of these two people are killed by someone else.
  • 7) Shieldman and spearman kill eachother in a simo.


In most of these examples, there is no grappling that ends up taking place, just tactical moves to keep one from killing the other. In only one of these seven examples does grappling actually happen.

Now, when this happens, is the shieldman in the wrong and should be called dead no matter what because they are initiating a grapple? Personally I don't think so.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:52 pm 
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Grappling is between two people, not between someone and a weapon. Grabbing someone?s weapon is NOT grappling. Grabbing someone?s shoulder IS grappling. Grappling- is the act of engaging in hand to hand combat; is the sport of hand-to-hand struggle between unarmed contestants who try to throw each other down; is to struggle, in or as if in wrestling; is a struggle or contest in which the participants attempt to clutch or grip each other. Grappling is grabbing a person, not a person?s equipment.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:30 am 
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Grapple from Oxford American Dictionary: "1. to seize or hold firmly 2. To struggle at close quarters; grapple with a problem, try to deal with it.

I think this could be interpreted both ways as in 1. this could be grappling a weapon. As in 2. this could be grappling a person.

I do believe some clarification for our rules is in order. I also feel that grabbing a weapon haft should be allowed, however if you have archery equipment on your person should be dis allowed. I just witnessed at a recent event an archer who, before engaging in meelee, dumpped all the arrows out of his quiver and set his bow aside. It seems to me that this is a personal discipline issue.

any further thoughts?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 8:11 am 
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The terms are going to be vague. Attempting to define our (BoW)grappling rule in terms of the empirical definition of (english) grappling is rather futile in my opinion because the definitions can obviously be applied both ways. I think we should look rather to the consequences of defining our (BoW) grappling rule each way, and choosing from each set of consequences which rule we prefer.

If the purpose of the (BoW) grappling rule is to set limits on pulling and tugging of bodies aginst each other, in hopes of lessening injuries when those bodies get tangled up and fall, then how is haft grabbing different from body grabbing? If one fighter grabs the other fighter's weapon, odds are the second fighter is going to resist, and then (english) grappling is taking place. The fact that the point of contact started with a hand on a weapon instead of a hand on a wrist matters very little because hands and legs will get twisted every which way if both fighters really want that weapon. When that happens, the fighters are equally likely to end up going to the ground, and all of the safety reasons why we have a (BoW) grappling rule come into being.

I myself am in favor of grappling, and I enjoy the heretofore distinction allowing me to grab spear hafts for example while wearing my chain maile. However the reality of the situation is that I have to get in close to do that, close enough that when I yank on a spear haft, the opponent usually puts a hand to my mailed shoulder to resist, and now according to the rules, he's initiated a (BoW) grapple and I would be free to use any other safe means under that rule. I dont believe that that is the intent of that phrase, and so I try not to take advantage of that little interpretational dance, but for the purposes of this discussion I feel we must acknowledge that it is present.

On the other side of the coin, treating (BoW) grappling as an all or nothing thing will drastically reduce the physicality of the sport, and with that a significant degree of the realism and for some people, fun of the sport. With no threat of manually taking a weapon away from someone, we'll see even more sloppy katas where the weapon is held to close to an opponent to take advantage of quick wrist flick shots. Another sticky area is that if we intend to extend the (BoW) restriction to weapons, does that not also imply that shields should be covered? If a fighter is intent on delivering a shield bash, often that fighter is only thinking about the shield bash, and exerting enough force forward on the shield to carry the momentum. Pulling the basher's shield out of place in the same direction he's pushing is a surprisingly easy way to move the basher's shield. Shield kicking is also techinically using unarmed means to maniuplate another fighter's gear, which is also technically (english) grappling. Shall that be covered by a hypothetical enlarged (BoW) grappling clause?

This is a very grey area, and there will be contradictions and compromises necessary to draw the line at any given place, including the place where it is currently drawn. This should be an interesting discussion as we wrestle with the issue.

For myself, I would like to inject another issue into the discussion. We're currently not allowed to trip or throw under the (BoW) Grappling rules. I would like to see that changed, or at least the interpretation clarified. I would like to have a statement similar to the existing exception when unarmored opponents initiate a grapple with an armored one, they surrender the privilege of safety not to be return-grappled by that armored opponent. The proposed position would be something to the effect that if one fighter voluntarily leaves his feet, he surrenders most of his care as to how he lands. If a fighter jumps at/on me, I find it irritating that I am not currently allowed to exploit this fully. This is not seen as a grapple, so I have to just more or less block his shots and absorb his body impact. I would like to be able to shield check him in whatever quarter he presents to me, or grab his ankles and pull him to the ground, or um, assist him in flying further, all of which I think I should be allowed to do since he sacrificed control of his own body by leaving his feet. There are obvious safety concerns inherent in this, but just like the armor-less initiated grappling rule there is precedent in voluntarily waiving safety concerns. Because of the lack of strategic tradeoff, there is less disincentive to leaving your feet than is realistic, and I think that is a related issue to the one we're discussing.


Which set of consequences do we want?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:22 pm 
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I think the solution here is to simply add, "you can't grab peoples weapons when holding a bow." Or something in the appropriate leagle-ease.
I think Patantire is onto something. I definetly SHOULD be allowed to deflect the idiots who jump at me, and even "assist him in flying further".
By jumping at me he's already saying"Hey, I wanna westle!"
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:46 pm 
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Palantir30 wrote:
If the purpose of the (BoW) grappling rule is to set limits on pulling and tugging of bodies aginst each other, in hopes of lessening injuries when those bodies get tangled up and fall, then how is haft grabbing different from body grabbing?


Grabbing a haft or other piece of equipment is totally different from grabbing a body part. It is much more difficult (some would even say impossible) to drop an arm off than it is to drop a spear. If someone does not wish to get pulled into a grapple by their equipment then they should either drop that equipment or not have attached it to themselves before walking onto the field. Grabbing another person?s equipment is not grappling, only grabbing their person is grappling. The only pieces of equipment I would consider as part of the actual person is clothing since it is legally required. Grabbing the haft of the weapon they are using, yanking their shield, even grabbing the weapon strapped to their back I would not consider grappling. If in the process of trying to keep their gear they get pulled in and initiate a grapple, it is their choice. They may make that choice right then by not dropping their gear, or they may have made that choice when they strapped stuff to themselves and walked onto the field.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:19 pm 
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Palintir, have you had that many people jump at you backwards? I'm guessing that's not really going to happen to much. So no matter what, your shield checking desires don't really seem hampered. A person running at you, into you, or standing near you is not grappling. So a person jumping at you, into you, or near you should not grappling. Because in effect what happens to you in direct result of those actions is not generably very different. This is why I believe that leaving one's feet should not count as initiating grappling. However if you really wanna try your "flying assistance moves" take off your armor for a battle or two and try it.

Forkbeard by jumping at you someone is only saying, "Hey I'm jumping at you."

Now if you all want to make things like shield bashing and checking grappling then it would make a little more sense.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:57 pm 
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I dont like the thought of someones gear being grabbed not being called a grapple. For instance some archers strap a shield to their backs when they go out onto the field. I can see a problem here with the shield being able to be grabbed and not condsidered a grapple. A archer running can have that shield caught as he runs by someone. To give an impression of what this can feel like go and get a garden hose and tie it to something in your backyard and then pull the hose over a shoulder and run away from the spot you tied the hose to. This can be the same as a person who slides a sword down the back of his or her tunic. Personally I think that any attached shield or weapon when grabbed should count as a grapple being iniated. A wepon or shield held in a hand is a differnent story.

Also I don't think that a jumping person is iniating a grapple. In addition to that if a fighter who jumps and spins and shows his back, so that he cannot be checked can easily be sidestepped and then checked. Also if they have their back to you why not just shoot for the back and kill the opponent.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:22 pm 
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Right now it is illegal to grapple an archer. To consider grabbing a shield a grapple is giving not only shiled users in general another advantage, but archers with shields an advantage specifically. Most people have an idea of what it would feel like to have something strapped to their back suddenly grabbed while they run by, which is why many people do not wear a shield strapped to their back. It's a hell of a lot easier and safer to grab that shield rather than to kick it. Both of which are currently legal, neither of which is currently grappling. Start considering grabbing a shield grappling and there are going to be even more people face down from the shield kick while someone is standing on their back-strapped shield because it is illegal to grab it. People should take some personal responsibility and decide the level of risk they want when equipping themselves instead of trying to limit what others can do safely. If somoene does not want to have their gear grappled, they should drop it. If they cannot drop it because they strapped it on they should have thought of that when signing the waiver, reading the rules, and before walking on the field.

I do not consider jumping at someone a grapple. Jumping on someone is grappling. The instant someone jumping through the air touches another person the jumper has initiated. It shouldn't even matter if the target person is moving into the jumper, it is the jumper's responsibility. If someone is going to leave the ground, then come into body contact with someone else, it is a grapple and it is the jumper who started it. Hopefully the jumper can get their feet back on the ground before the target re-directs them. If you don't want to be grabbed and twisted while your feet are off the ground, DON"T JUMP ON PEOPLE!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:10 pm 
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Forkbeard wrote:
Wow, I'm famous. People are quoting me. 8)


Sorry for the confusion, I tried to make that clear in the opening that I was intentionally quoting you and Xooyan out of context. I did so as your comments that grabbing an opponent's weapon equals the initiation of grappling is different from my understanding. I was looking for comments from other veteran Heralds on how they interpret that.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:23 am 
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Kage wrote:
In addition to that if a fighter who jumps and spins and shows his back, so that he cannot be checked can easily be sidestepped and then checked. Also if they have their back to you why not just shoot for the back and kill the opponent.


Racoon, this is exactly the scenario I'm talking about. Most fighters who jump at me are employing a spin move of some type, so their side is toward me.

I favor a short sword, so it is not to my advantage to swing a weapon at their back, because if I can hit them, they can hit me with their spin move since their weapons are usually to my sword side, not my shield side which was the point of the jump. It is much more advantageous for me to take a step to the left putting me in the rear quarter, put a shoulder/shield into the small of the back while keeping my sword high for the blocks. This lets me take the much cleaner shot after their momentum is spent. Without Freyson and Forkbeard's interpretations being widespread, that could be seen as a rear-quarter bash.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:20 am 
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Palantir30 wrote:
It is much more advantageous for me to take a step to the left putting me in the rear quarter, put a shoulder/shield into the small of the back while keeping my sword high for the blocks. This lets me take the much cleaner shot after their momentum is spent. Without Freyson and Forkbeard's interpretations being widespread, that could be seen as a rear-quarter bash.


BOW wrote:
3.5.4.3. A person may not Bash or Check an opponent's rear quadrant. Shield pushing or incidental contact in an opponent?s rear quadrant is allowed"


I would see it as more of a push, not a check or bash personally. You are moving around and placing your shield in the small of their back to better control where they are going. Checks and bashes I see as a way to get the person away from you using brute force.

You seem to be wanting to abuse their momentum and push them where you want them to go in your example.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:44 pm 
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Freyson what do you mean by "jump on"
Are you talking about jumping onto someone for instance who is legged or on the ground or jumping into an opponent or something else?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:54 pm 
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I was talking about jumping on someone, doesn't matter what position they are in. If someone is jumping and then ends up contacting someone else, I can see that considered as innitiating grappling. I can (after some thought) see how it may not be considered as innitiating, but only in such a way that it wouldn't matter in Palantir30's example. If jumping on someone and touching them is not grappling, then neither is stiff arming them while they are in the air and redirecting them to the ground. Either any body contact is grappling, or only grabbing body contact is grappling.

Personally I feel that the line is fine but only body grabbing/tangling is grappling, but that is because of the way we do it down here. If someone is jumping I can do whatever I want to them as long as I do not grab them in mid air (down here). Of course it is very rare that someone being stiff armed while jumping is not going to do something like wrapping a limb around. This takes it across that fine line. The jumper jumped, got moved by non-grabbing body contact, ended up wrapping something while moving and innitiating, and the herald nearby just smiles. There is no way that quickly the herald can judge most of the time, so it is put down as "he jumped, he started it!"

To re-enforce what Thorondor said:

3.5.4.3. A person may not Bash or Check an opponent's rear quadrant. Shield pushing or incidental contact in an opponent?s rear quadrant is allowed.

Someone running at a shield and turning their back to the shield user is going to hit that shield as hard as if the shield man were running at them. Shield pushing that person from behind is fine, the fact that they added their own momentum into the push is their fault. I am not going to get out of the way when they turn their back while flying at me. It is not as much about force as it is about awareness. Bashing someone full out from behind unawares is dangerous, awares much less so. Letting someone bash themselves into a shield from any direction is not the shield user's fault at all.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:55 pm 
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I wear lot's of armor. If some one with out armor jumps at/on me and I catch them in midair, THEY initiated the resulting graple. I didn't initiate it by catching them. THEY jumped into ME.
I think the point to all this got lost somewhere. THis disscusion wasn't about grapling initaily. It was about archers. We should change anything about the grapling rules. We should add in a line that says"Archers can't grap other peoples weapons".
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Forkbeard wrote:
I wear lot's of armor. If some one with out armor jumps at/on me and I catch them in midair, THEY initiated the resulting graple. I didn't initiate it by catching them. THEY jumped into ME.
I think the point to all this got lost somewhere. THis disscusion wasn't about grapling initaily. It was about archers. We should change anything about the grapling rules. We should add in a line that says"Archers can't grap other peoples weapons".


Sorry multi-bearded man, THIS discussion is only about grappling. That other discussion in that other forum is about archers. Yes your comment was removed from that other context as it was a blanket statement about what is and isn't a grapple. And that is what I'm trying to get clarified.

For that matter, this isn't about people shield charging or checking or people jumping. Though I do appreciate that some folks were trying to make fine points about people who jump on others in their tactics and who is and isn't initiating a grapple.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So if I can put the fighters on the ground, remove the side discussion of shields, can I toss out a few more common scenarios:

1) Two fighters are swinging Class I swords at each other, but not connecting. Fighter A grabs the pommel of fighter B's sword - has grappling been initiated?

2) Fighter C grabs the shaft of my spear - has grappling been initiated?

3) With my polearm, I am cross-blocking a charging shieldman (less than 3 steps to my front quadrant), and in the tussle of weapon shaft against shield, the shieldman grabs the shaft of the spear adjacent to where my hand is holding it. Has grappling been initiated? If so, by whom?

4) Back to scenario 1 - Fighters A and B tussling over a sword. Fighter B (the pommel grabber) pulls his hand and the pommel it is holding towards himself. Has grappling been initiated?

5) Continuing after #4 - Fighter B turns, putting his shoulder between himself and Fighter A - pulling the sword they are fighting over, and Fighter A's arm, so that Fighter A is reaching over B's shoulder while trying to hold onto that weapon. Has grappling been initiated? If so, by whom?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 9:02 pm 
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1) Archers are not allowed to come into contact with another person or their gear (armor, weapons, shield, etc)

2) People are not allowed to come into contact with an archer or their gear (bow, arrows, shield [back shield, buckler], back up weapon, etc)

That pretty much breaks it down for archers.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:37 pm 
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#1, #2, #3, #4 - No grapple. Only the weapon has been grabbed, not the person.

#5 IF (BIG IF) grappling is any body contact, then yes it is a grapple. It is innitiated by the wielder because he choose to grapple instead of letting go of the weapon. IF (not so big if) only grabbing type moves are grappling, then at this point it is not a grapple. The point at which either fighter begins to entangle body parts by grabbing or whatever is the point it becomes a grapple. From my experience it moot by this point who initiated, both have agreed tacitly to grapple. The wielder could have at any point let go, and the grabber could have done the same.

Thorondor - Would you be so kind as to point out where in the rules it says that archers cannot come into contact with, or be contacted by, another person? I cannot seem to find it anywhere in the rules, maybe I missed it. I do see that archers cannot innitiate or be grappled, but nothing about body contact. Is it your position that any type of body contact is grappling? If this is your position I totally disagree. Grappling is the act of grabbing someone, not touching them, touching their gear, or even grabbing their gear.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:13 am 
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It sounds like we need to come up with a definition of what a grapple really is. So far we have some saying that grabbing the weapon is grappling, and others saying that grabbing the person is considered grappling. To me grappling seems like a wrestling situation of any sort, be it the weapon or the person.

In ways I have to agree with Freyson, when a person who is holing a weapon or shield or whatever in his or her hand can easily drop it. However, I have to disagree with a weapon or something fastened to the person that cannot be easily dropped, it is too dangerous to have someone be able to grab a shield on someones back like that and pull.

Maybe we need to come up with some new grappling rules that are a little more in depth than the ones we have now. Other wise I don't really see an end to this topic. But hey I could be wrong.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:32 am 
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Wow, I guess I really need to finish posts - totally forgot to come back and finish it up, had to run half way though the post. That post was more directed to the origins of this whole thread than grappling in general (was in the archer thread apparently).

But, 1-4: no grapple. #5: possibly - depends on if movement was restricted or impeeded by either person. IMO it is a mutual engagement since either person could back off before they got to this point.

I'm all for any and all contact and personally I think the grappling should be by armor position, not type. (no armor, limbs, body, helm).

The only problem with grabbing gear not being considered a grapple comes from the possibility of danger from the archer's own gear.

The likelyhood of these happening is WAY small, but none the less, under the current rules it COULD happen.

First one:
  • 1) Person A gets hit in the weapon arm from an arrow from the archer while rushing the archer. Person A drops their sword and keeps rushing the archer.
  • 2) Person A gets to the archer without a weapon. They ditch the shield and grab the bow to keep the archer from shooting other people while backup gets there.
  • 3) Archer spins the bow trying to get it free and accidently stabs the bow tip into Person A's cheak - cutting the skin. Or the opposite happens and the archer gets injured.
Second one:
  • 1) Person B sees a gimped archer with a back shield shooting people.
  • 2) Person B comes up from behind the archer and with no clear shot, goes to move the back shield to either get the archer to spin or to get the back shot.
  • 3) Archer feels movement on their shield and spins around quickly.
  • At this point one of two BAD things could happen...
  • 4.1) Arrows still in the archer's quiver get stuck in the ground as they spin to find out what is happening behind them. They keep spinning and one of their arrows snaps in half.
  • 4.2) They spin to see who is behind them and in doing so one of the arrow nocks hits the bare skin of Person B's shin and cuts it open.


Yes, both of these are very unlikely and probably will never happen, but things like that are never thought of until after it happens.

Kage wrote:
Maybe we need to come up with some new grappling rules that are a little more in depth than the ones we have now. Other wise I don't really see an end to this topic. But hey I could be wrong.

I think you might be right, but the hard part will be figuring out what is what...

~?~

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:36 am 
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Thorondor wrote:
1) Archers are not allowed to come into contact with another person or their gear (armor, weapons, shield, etc)

2) People are not allowed to come into contact with an archer or their gear (bow, arrows, shield [back shield, buckler], back up weapon, etc)


Thorondor - please get a clue - this is not a continuation of the War Council discussion about CHANGING the rules that govern Archers and grappling. Freyson is right, what you suggest above is a part of that discussion and not necessarily within the rules.

If you wish to continue discussing that subject - please open a new thread.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:08 pm 
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Thanks for the smack guys, I needed it.

Quick and easy what I think grappling is: restricting the physical movement of another contestant.

This would include grabbing strapped shields that aren't easily ditched, shields strapped to people's backs, garb, armor, backup weapons, etc.

This would not include punch shields held in the hand, spears, other polearms, swords, weapons, etc.

If a person can easily get out of a possible grapple by letting go of their spear or other gear, there is no initiation of a grapple because the gear can be released and the person can run.
On the other hand, if the person can not get out of the situation, a grapple has been initiated. A person is physically restricted when the shield strapped to their back is grabbed.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:59 pm 
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I have to agree Thorondor completely. Grappling is restiricting the physical movement of another fighter in a hand to hand or wrestling situation.

Weapons that can be let go of when grabbed don't count as a grapple. However if the grabee doesn't let go of the weapon then a grapple has been iniated.
Shields and weapons that are strapped to a person and cannot be easily let go of would count as a grapple being iniatedif and when they are grabbed a hold of. Thorondors list of these items is a really good one.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:24 pm 
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Kage wrote:
Weapons that can be let go of when grabbed don't count as a grapple. However if the grabee doesn't let go of the weapon then a grapple has been iniated.


Now here's a question...in that, WHO initiated the grapple? Is it the person who grabbed the weapon or the person who didn't let go when their weapon was grabbed?

Personally, I feel it's an open invatitation TO grapple, but no grapple has occured yet. Either person could let go of the weapon at any time before personal contact happens. If the original weapon holder doesn't want to grapple, they can drop their weapon. If the attacker doesn't want to grapple, they can abandon the attempt at disarming the person and try a different tactic.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:30 pm 
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I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the flavor of how this seems to be going.

Person A can grab person B's weapon and that's not grappling because person B is able to drop the weapon.

That doesnt seem like a very good legal construction of choices for B, B doesnt want to drop his weapon. The neutral state for both fighters is for each to have control of their own equipment. This hypothetical rule would give person A the ability to move person B outside of the neutral state, but we're assigning person B the culpability for initiating a grapple for simply resisting person A's action.

The misalignment of who instigates the situational momentum and who is being assigned ownership of that momentum seem to be at odds.

IF grabbing a weapon haft is to be recognized under the rules in any capacity; the one whose actions the rules should consider is the person grabbing the weapon, not owning the weapon. This rule is much more at home governing the acting party's (A) actions not the passive party (B).

Keep in mind that I'm one of those advocating haft grabbing. I just think the rule should make sense and assign responsibility to the right person.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:24 pm 
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I grabbing weapons in other peoples hands isn't grapling. Gabbing eqiptment stapped to them that they cannot let go of(like a back shield) is. So is grabbing thier clothes.
So if the question is,"when does a grapling offically start?" I would have to say it starts when one person grabs another, not their weapons.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:39 pm 
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Forkbeard wrote:
I grabbing weapons in other peoples hands isn't grapling. Gabbing eqiptment stapped to them that they cannot let go of(like a back shield) is. So is grabbing thier clothes.
So if the question is,"when does a grapling offically start?" I would have to say it starts when one person grabs another, not their weapons.
FB


Which honestly is what I think. Though I tend to think of grappling in terms of controlling the person, rather than just in terms of grabbing them.

Eons ago I found myself tussling with another fighter over our weapons. He had ahold of the handgrip of my red sword (Class II) and I had grabbed the pommel of his sword (and long handled blue (Class I). Neither of us were letting go, so I took advantage of the fact that I was bigger and stronger than him by thrusting upwards with both hands - trying to pull the weapons out of his hands. Being a wiry kid, Arundoor held on for dear life - and in a split second I looked up at his scared face as he floated 4-5 feet in the air. He seemed to realize what had happened and as I started to let the weapons down he let go thinking trying to get away. His only problem is that in trying to get free, he ended up leaving me with both swords - and yes I killed him.

Now technically in that story there was no body-to-body contact between us, so under the formula above it wasn't a grapple. Neither of us were wearing armor, so even if it had been a grapple, it was perfectly legal.

Looking back at that incident, I really think that I was in effect grappling - I had control of the other fighter's body. Yes he had the ability to disengage, but letting go of the swords, but I really think that he did it partly out of fear rather than by choice. So if I were Heralding and a decent sized adult picked up a 100 pound teenager and started waving him around - I would admonish the bigger fighter to watch such occurences in the future. Unless it happened another time, I'd chalk the incident up as an accidental grapple where neither intended for that to happen. I know that it hasn't happened to me since that one time fifteen years ago.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:17 pm 
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I agree with you on that Kyrax. That seems like it would just end up being an unusual case that happens once in a blue moon.

But in your case, I agree with you. You ended up physically controlling Arundoor when you lifted him into the air. Even though you weren't restricting him, it was some form of control you had over him (straight into the air). It wouldn't be a grapple, but if it continued to happen I would start watching the larger person and be making sure they were being safe.

From the last few posts I've read I'm seeing the grappling definition come out as: physically controlling or restricting movement of a person. This would include grabbing someone's arm and not letting them move (restricting), grabbing a shield to spin them around (controlling), etc.

Quick question: Is this grappling?
I'm running by someone with a back shield. I have a shield, but I have been disarmed. Is grabbing the edge of thier shield and putting resistance on it (so they spin slightly) initiating a grapple? The only reason I am doing this is to distract the person so I can regroup with the rest of my team. There is no attempt to stop running or to run the other person over.

The big thing is the difference between a person and their gear. From what I'm reading (correct me if I'm wrong) once a person is defined, this whole issue would be MUCH easier to understand. Maybe we want to work on that definition as well?

~Thor~

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:13 pm 
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I just cannot agree that gear of any type should fall under the grappling rules, whether that gear be held or attached. The only type of gear which should at all be limited is arrows, bows, clothing, and armor. Everything else is fair game. People attach gear to themselves for an advantage of some type. This advantage is thought of prior to walking on the field. There needs to be a balancing disadvantage as well. This disadvantage is that this gear can be grabbed without falling into the realm of grappling. This should also be thought of prior to walking onto the field. If someone does not want to be spun around by the gear then they should let go of it or should not attach it to themselves.

A specific example will show my point. Bob fights Florentine, wears leather greaves, and straps a shield to his back. He sees Zio closing in and turns to run. Zio has a single sword and chain mail. When Bob turns away the only possible targets for Zio are the armored legs and the shield. The easiest way for Zio to kill Bob before Bob gets away is for Zio to reach out, grab the shield, spin Bob around, and then whack him in the chest. Now Bob knew when he walked onto the field that the shield would protect him. It is the reason he strapped it on his back. If grabbing the shield is grappling, then Zio breaks the rules if he does it (Zio has chain, Bob only leather). Zio is forced to swing 2 times at the leg of someone running away. There is no disadvantage to Bob strapping the shield like this. Zio is at a total disadvantage if grabbing strapped equipment is considered grappling. This is wrong!

Anytime a person attaches gear to themselves they need to be aware that there is a disadvantage. This disadvantage is that gear does not fall under the grappling rules.

I also cannot agree that physically restricting or controlling a person?s movement by holding their gear is grappling either. In Kyrax?s example, the little guy could have let go earlier. The fact the Kyrax is such a beast of a man should not be a disadvantage to him :D. Restricting or controlling a person?s movement by grabbing them, and ONLY by grabbing them, is grappling. Nothing else is grappling. The person can drop gear, not strap it to themselves, not get into that situation, etc..

The problem with considering this type of stuff grappling is the application to everything else. If the definition is restricting or controlling movement, even if the word ?unwillingly? is added, then half of everything on the field is grappling. Use your shield to move their shield = grappling. Have your spearman open their shield = grappling. Trap blocking their weapon against something = grappling. Bashing someone = grappling. Moving your opponent up against a wall = grappling. In each case you would be controlling their movement and restricting them unwillingly. None of which is actually grappling.

Thorondor ? In you example, with your definition, it would be grappling. You spun someone around, or controlled their movement. I don?t think it would be grappling, but by the definition you put forward it would be.

In my opinion a ?person? is defined by their body, clothing, and armor. Everything else is gear. Strapped on gear is still gear, not person.

p.s. I have had the situation given by Kyrax happen many times, both to me and by me. It may be uncommon in some places, but not down south.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:50 am 
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The only real reason that I force the issue of attatched weapons and equimpment other than armor is because of saftey issues that I have with it. It is just as dangerous as trying to take a bow away from an archer, and I don't care how it is looked at. Some one could wind up seriously injured from being yanked backwards by the top of their shield. Also who is to say that I cannot do the same to an archer who has a shield strapped to his back. I just try to always look at safety first.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:14 am 
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Safety first would be to make it illegal to strap gear to the body before walking onto the field.What you are talking about is safety second, third, or later. Once someone has made the choice to do it they have given up another level of personal safety. There is zreo safety issue to anyone other than the person wearing the gear. Yes, someone could end up injured by strapping gear to themselves. They can also get seriously injured by dropping to a knee without pads on. Unless we are going to begin restricting individuals in what they must or cannot wear/strap for their own personal safety, not the safety of others, it is their choice.

The archer issue is defintiely seperate due to the inherent dangers of archery gear. It should be illegal to grab bows and/or arrows, as well as illegal to grapple anyone carrying these. Yet it should NOT be illegal to grab any other type of gear the archer is strapping to themselves. Before they walked onto the field they waived the choice of safety first by strapping this gear on. By grabbing the shield on their back, I have done the same. We have both accepted the additional risk, it is only to ourselves. There is no reason to limit this.


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