Red Rocks

[savetuba]

suppose the above tactic does happen?

First few battles will be interesting and soon there will be a push for helms and once everyone is wearing helms how is the rock tactic going to work? And with the number of head shots now, real helms on nearly everyone will help keep this game safe. Dont people feel that with the increase of helms the look of the game will also seem more realistic? In time rocks will obsolete them selves.

OR

Does the WC finally ban rocks all together? The game doesn't change or evolve and people are drawn to a different game that allowes change and evolution?

Seems like there is a prevailing surge that if it isn't a sheild wall it isn't good for the game and should be banned.

Could just be a problem with the WC is to powerful.

[V-Hil]

I think that allowing rocks like that would be counter-productive to what Belegarth is attempting to do. Granted, it isn't official, but we simulate medieval combat using padded weapons. Combatants of this type of combat we're representing didn't pick up large boulders and hurl them at people. They lauched them from catapults and pushed them off of walls onto the attackers below.

Argue characterization all you want, it doesn't change the fact that we simulate the combat used of the world's pre-gunpowder history. Rocks are cheesy enough and should only be used in a sling or not at all. Those are part of what gives Belegarth the "lightning bolt, lightning bolt, lightning bolt" feel.

Savetuba- I like evolution too, but within the bounds of our rules. Evolving in the sense using what is currently available tactics and equipment-wise and doing everything better than the other groups. Things like teamwork, command and control and combined arms as well as the tactics that can be used. Granted, there are some pieces of equipment that I feel strongly about, but it's mainly to balance gameplay and get the combat to be as realistic as possible.

Rocks aren't very realistic in how they are used in our game. Our rocks don't fly 60mph and bean somebody in the head. They are tossed like a three-year-old would throw them and cause too much damage. Red rocks would be just stupid unless they were used in scenario specific battles like a siege.

Anyway, I'm done...

[Winfang]

Hello.

[Kegg]

suppose the above tactic does happen?

First few battles will be interesting and soon there will be a push for helms and once everyone is wearing helms how is the rock tactic going to work? And with the number of head shots now, real helms on nearly everyone will help keep this game safe. Dont people feel that with the increase of helms the look of the game will also seem more realistic? In time rocks will obsolete them selves.

OR

Does the WC finally ban rocks all together? The game doesn't change or evolve and people are drawn to a different game that allowes change and evolution?

Seems like there is a prevailing surge that if it isn't a sheild wall it isn't good for the game and should be banned.

Could just be a problem with the WC is to powerful.

As with your fearing change comment earlier... how is outlawing rocks not changing or evolving the game?

I very much would like to see everyone in helmets. It would be most excellent. So you are suggesting that I bring my 2500 rocks to the next battle? To force everyone to wear a helmet? Massed rocks very much favor heavy armor and shield walls. Shield walls protect throwers of rocks. Rocks are a pro-shield wall kind of thing.

Savetuba, do you honestly believe that rocks are that vital to the game? Those arguing against rocks are the ones who wish to evolve the sport. Those that are arguing for them are those that wish the sport to remain static.

[Koom Di' Puts]

Maybe the Tuba there isn't the best spokesperson for rocks/muave rocks (We are gettin away from callin em red, remember?)

Umm Before I get started on my evening rant...
Please Keg... bring all your rocks to the next event... please? I'll behave... I really will...

Ok... here we go...
I read about the "turbo rocks" in a post up the chain...
Something crazy about injecting weight into it... well you can nix that fast because of core... much easier to just buy the 1.95 walmart nerf balls... They are 4 inches and have an awesome weight... The footballs tend to be just a bit weighty tend to be more on the failed side if you dun remove their inadrs a bit...

Also... with people bringin masses and masses of em out I know a bit about this one... They get expensive... I had 160 rocks that I was using... out of that batch I have absolutly 0. That was just last year. To kinda explain what I am gettin at. Archers are awesome, But they are more dangerous than some idiot dancing behind a shield wall with a bag of rocks. An archer can have as many arrows as they want too... and even shoot yours... why shouldn't an average foot soldier be able to carry as many rocks as they like. A helmet or a good opposing shield wall fixes the problem.

If rocks were ever all together banned it would be a sad day for this group who preaches Realism over all else. Rocks and sticks were the first weapons and weere used as such all through the pre-gunpowder era. Maybe not as we use them... But They didn't "wrist-flick" their flails or swords either (Which I will admit That I do myself)

The dreaded boulder pile.
I would love to see this personally. But how long do you really thing a stationary fort like this would last on a large scale field battle. It would be the first target for almost everyone out there. And the 5 or 6 behind it... They would think it cool too... until they get ran over by some huge group... then they would be thinking it "was" cool...

Red shots to break...
Thats an interesting idea .. I don't see a probelm with it either way. But A red swing would break it if it was held also. I asked a while ago, you can block with a regular rock, why not a muave one.

Ohohoh... sush about the dumping bags of rocks on peoples heads... That my tactic...this is only a problem during castle battles. We don;t have too many of them. And well... I think that was a probelm back then too...

Mass of red rocks...
While it is scarey when stated you have to think of it for a second... I don't honestly seeing it ever happen. Well.. besides the mass of people that would just straight up hate them (and regular rocks for that matter) There are on;y a few people who would begrade themselves to use them.
I think personaly if they were ever allowed, I would only bring 2 with me... maybe... maybe 3... It would be too difficult to be as mobile as needed with them. And it would be crazy to leave one behind. (Like an archer say ing that they can only carry 5 arrows... I'll just sit my other 5 here and come back to get them in a second. ) I highly doubt such a large scale use of them. Expecially for the point that you can have no other wepaons in hand. Kinda makes you not good for much else.And there is a really easy way to block a muave rock... Move... or hit it with a polearm or something... It is really difficult to throw them the way that I would like to see it implemented... (Two hands overhead) If you don;t think so... grab a beanbag ( I won't admit to that being what I make mine from) and try it.

A deforming rock? I have a large flail head... maybe a pillow on a stick... Is there a flext rule on flail heads?

If you think making muave rocks do damage through armor is too much... how about a compromise and scale it down to a class 1 hit and don't destroy your precious shields. It would still put an interesting twist on the game.

In conclusion... maybe Muave is a bit too broad.... how about pink? maybe make it sound not as strong.... Pink rocks? .... hrm... Naw... we'll make em Cyan....

[Kegg]

Koom, you are a more enjoyable spokesperson for red rocks.

Doesn't mean I like them (or ordinary rocks any better), just that you write one enjoyable post.

It is not that rocks aren't realistic, its just that they are not that deadly. I have been hit in the head by a number of rocks (use to have alot of dirt clod/rock fights growing up). It was the way the kids in my neighborhood settled disputes. Last I checked I wasn't killed by any of the rock strikes to the head. Bled badly a couple of times. Got grounded for a week or so (once). I remember it really hurt. Nope, still not dead. My problem with real rocks thrown by hand is that they are not that dangerous.

In 8th grade I hit a kid in the head with a ball bat (was on the on deck circle and he walked up behind me). Knocked him out cold, blood everywhere. Seen people beaned with baseballs in the head, rarely knocked out. Seen people hit in the head with a hit/struck ball. Serious damage (KO). Clobbered a guy with a golf ball once on a tee shot (knocked him out cold). Don't think I could accomplish the same thing with a thrown golf ball.

In closing, I honestly believe rocks do not add much to the sport, are not particularly deadly when thrown (out of a sling is another matter entirely), and are open to abuse.

[savetuba]

yet it is out of safety that we do not use slings thus we have to go the next best route and throw them. If the rules said a rock could only be 'slung' then I'm sure a lot of people would be using slings.

[Kegg]

There are no prohibition against slings. I think they are perfectly safe weapons (especially compared to bows). Some leather cord, a leather pouch and you would be good to go. Would love to see them on a battlefield.

[debuenzo]

some might argue that a leather cord may entangle a person and be a safety hazard as well as an eye hazard

but i too would like to see slings

[savetuba]

well why not modify the rules to make it say rocks may only be slung? then there won't be armies of shields with rocks on/behind them. It takes 2 hands to reload a sling and it will probally be a cheaper form of missles than archery, but with more skill required.

[Kegg]

Well I would rather get hit in the face with a leather sling than either a

1.) bow
2.) any melee weapon
3.) knock of an arrow.

Slings are "safe" in a manner consistent with what we do.

If I ever pushed (which I doubt I will ever do), for elimination of rocks, I would still leave an exception for slings. Heck, you might allow slings to do damage to areas other than the head (a real skill weapon).

[savetuba]

then why not make slings do damage like greens? Non effective against armor, yet can still pierce an unarmored limb. Make larger rocks be muave and small rocks are sling ammo only and still white. Gets rid of a lot of the cheese factor yet keeps rocks in the game.

Only problem with rocks are the hit with arrows problem. If they pass through then why not pass through and other "stone wall". Could just say that small rocks arrows will pass through because if you shoot an arrow into a bag of small rocks the rocks will be pushed aside where as a bolder can not have an arrow pass through it.

If a person wants to make a wall of throwable rocks then more power to him, but a wall is only as good as it's defences. Someone could knock it down onto the person hiding behind it. Someone could flank the small wall.

If an army wants to bring 20 large rocks and use them in the metioned fasion to "hopefully" throw them over their team's heads and into the other line, let them. Just have a rule where a large rock does damage until it hits the ground.

So if I wish to start off with a huge rock then I would be on both knees holding the rock over my head trying to keep up with the front line. once the lines meet I have to try to throw the rock over the guy(s) in front of me without killing them and hitting something on the other team. I also have to watch out for arrows, javs, slung rocks, poles, other large rocks, and dropping the rock on myself. Or maybe someone will come around and flank us and I can't do much about it. It is about as use full as someone fighting with nothing but a dagger.

[V-Hil]

Sigh...

[debuenzo]

they're just ideas...

[V-Hil]

lol!!!

It's going in circles and some responses have been overlooked. Some of the thing I noted in my post we either ignored or skipped over. So...?

Sigh...

[savetuba]

some one needes to read up on greek warfare. I remember reading somewhere that the greeks would throw moderate sized rocks at eachother.

[Angmarth]

1) Are rocks safe? Yes.

2) Are rocks playable? No. Rocks are NOT playable without a sling. It is impossible to correctly potray the rocks we are throwing under the medium which is Belegarth realism. (See earlier posts by both myself and Kegg as to why.) This is the same reason flails fall under fire, and by my account rocks are worse.

3) Are rocks realistic? Yes & No. Were real rocks used? Yes. Are foam rocks remotely similar to their real counterparts? No. I would be more inclined to say that ALL rocks had to be nerf sports balls. We could then hurl them like dodgeballs at each others heads and it would be slightly more realistic (the claim would be that all rocks are slung, and the "throw" is merely semantics), but slightly less safe.

Rocks do not look good. We have more crappy looking rocks (in the non crappy vs. crappy rock ratio) than anything else. Back in the day I remember Saki had a small stuffed "fish" rock he used. (I specifically remember it being used during Tzigana's knight trial.) That rock, along with the other rocks I have seen bother me for many reasons.

No one can give me a good reason to like or even allow rocks. Rocks are one of those things that are almost regional. I don't remember too many in Numenor and the St. Louis groups of Arnor/Amon-Sul/Riverbend/Rhudaur (dag group) do not have ANY rocks to my knowledge.

Rocks are like healing and other special things. They should be scenario only, such as for castle battles etc. That is my opinion and I believe it is shared by many others.

[Mercer]

But... but... but Braveheart used them! That MUST make them cool! Rocks have the Mel Gibson Seal of Approval!

Seriously, though, I hate 'em, and not just because one popped my glasses' lens into my eye (purely a glasses failure). They're cheap and cheesy, and on the low end of realistic. If I wanted to play with beanbags, I'd have stayed in the Northeast with NERO.

[Syrus]

My say for realism is that as for effectiveness, a brick thrown to the dome may not quite make the gooey pink stuff fly, but you will most likely be on the ground for quite a while (similar to the notion that two limbs will not KILL, per se, but make you rather useless.)

Realism in use... Rock... The second weapon ever (right after stick)...


Red/mauve/pink rock: slightly more unrealistic, granted. However, not without precedent. I've been more concerned with making them SAFE with weight restrictions. I don't want a 12 pound wad of foam hitting me in the head while I'm not looking. PLAYABLE we can work out in this stage we're in now.

I'm not looking to get them added to the BOW. If they're used in scenario battles, so be it. I'll play the scenario. I'd just rather they be safe and balanced. Perhaps if the scenarios go well, THEN we can present them to WC. That's further down the road.

[Koom Di' Puts]

Keg... thanks... and you probally will not believe this, but I would much rather see rocks get used in sometype of device over throwing also. I tried the slingshot once... (That was fun) And something about vulcanized rubber and a really large thread shot that one down.
Slings are completely out of the question in my book. I've used one, play tested and practived with it... With two (effective) ways of making them, I was able to rip bark off a tree with it... That means that flesh would be a bad thing. Thats why I dun think slings are the way to go. And I have been working on some, (excuse my spelling but it is late and I have had a bit too many margaritas to use Spell check effectively) Hyligh and lacross type weapons for slinging rocks. I am working out the kinks before I do anything with them though. But untill I can find a safe way to use em I'll keep by my stand with the hand thrown rocks. They may not be as deady as their counter parts... but yeah...

I do appologize for missing some of your points VHil...(Not being sarcastic) I'll try again
umm... Boulders being counter productive because The combatants we are trying to represent never hurled large rocks at people.
This to me kinda more than anything falls into the characterization phase. I understand that we are pre-gunpowder era, but it says right on http://www.belegarth.com/about.php that most groups are based on tolken's middle earth, That means that funny looking Trolls, (with holding nessecary flameing of weaker monster races) could would and should be hurling boulders at people. Nothing would bring me greater Joy than to see legolass crushed by once... but that is a bit off topic....

Scratch anything that has to do mentioning a stagnant evolving game, This game is always evolving and from what I can see it is going for the most part the better.

Something about throwing like a three year old
Yeah... I agree with this... but under 10 feet you have to "Half draw" so you can't really beam someone in the head at 5 feet.

With the boulders we have gotten a bit off topic and have been dancing around the idea of regular rocks. I would really like to see it get back on topic.
Request
Gimmie some ideas on what you would like to see with These boulders. Other than just burn them.
I do plan on (you have to remember, I'm unemployed and poor) making a couple of few of these and attempting some more playtesting (hopefully on a larger scale fields) so I can have some more points to make (I really want to see the tower of boulders)

umm... This is Koom... Signing off....[/b]

[Koom Di' Puts]

oh hey... I just thought of something else... I know we dun use rocks they way they were intended... but look at flails.... and punch shields... I'm sorry I'm goin back to bed now...

[slippy]

i might as well get this going again we don't have to have it wide spread yet it might take a while and i was watching this show they had rocks but they used sling i think we are just pretending the sling is there but not for is safer we could say the same for reds except in catapult so 2 men might have to pick it up but they can also have other wepons on the feild waiting for them after they through the rock for not holding weapon in hand rule.