Double-ended Javelin

Topics For Experienced Members

Moderator: Belegarth: Forum Moderators

Double-ended Javelin

Postby Syrus » Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:11 pm

1.4.6. Double-ended Weapons must conform to all of the following:
1.4.6.1. Double-ended Weapons must not be more than 7 feet long.
1.4.6.2. Double-ended Weapons must have a minimum of 18 inches in length of padding covering each end in a cylindrical fashion. Both
striking surfaces of this weapon must follow Class 3 Weapon standards for a Double-ended Weapon to be legal.
1.4.6.3. Regardless of length, a Double-ended Weapon is a Class 1 Weapon when swung and Class 3 when thrust.
1.4.7. Javelins must conform to all of the following:
1.4.7.1. Must also pass as a Class 3 Weapon.
1.4.7.2. The maximum weight is twenty-four (24) ounces.
1.4.7.3. The minimum length is four (4) feet.
1.4.7.4. The maximum length is seven (7) feet.
1.4.7.5. Padded along the entire length.
1.4.7.6. Must flex less than 90?. This is an exception to Appendix A, 1.3.5.
1.4.7.7. Must have a yellow cover


A few days ago, there was a question in the rules forum about a double-ended javelin. Within the rules, it does not explicitly say that a double ended javelin is required to have class 1 striking surfaces, only that both ends need to be classified as type 3, or neither.


I said that the only disqualifying aspect I could really think of would be the creative interpretation rule, however, I do not think that a double-ended javelin would unbalance the game. What do you guys think?
Shah-Syrus Of Horse Grave Horde
Master of the Crotch-Block.

HORDE WIN, *!
User avatar
Syrus
Berserker
Berserker
 
Posts: 813
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:20 pm
Location: Horse Grave (Louisville, KY)

Postby Kyrax » Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:18 pm

1.4.6.2. Double-ended Weapons must have a minimum of 18 inches in length of padding covering each end in a cylindrical fashion. Both striking surfaces of this weapon must follow Class 3 Weapon standards for a Double-ended Weapon to be legal.
1.4.6.3. Regardless of length, a Double-ended Weapon is a Class 1 Weapon when swung and Class 3 when thrust.


These two rules will prevent your "double-ended javelin" from being legal.

1.4.6.2 - two Class 1 striking surfaces are required on either end of the double-ended weapon. A javelin may not be anything buy yellow/green - FAILS.

1.4.6.3 - Note that nowhere here does it say that a double-ended weapon CAN be a Class IV (missile weapons) or V weapon (head-only missile weapons). So it fails as a javelin on Class alone.
Come to a California event, we only bite when we're Zombies!

Ignore Kyrax, he's old and slow.
User avatar
Kyrax
Grizzled Veteran
Grizzled Veteran
 
Posts: 2647
Joined: Thu May 01, 2003 4:01 pm
Location: Norcalia
Started Fighting: 30 May 1987
Realm: Pelargir-Mallenorod
Unit: Brotherhood of Mithris
Favorite Fighting Styles: Archery

Postby Syrus » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:56 pm

1.4.6.2 simply states that padding be on either end. If striking surface is implied, it should be written as striking surface.

1.4.6.3 is a valid denial by exclusion. I concede the point here.

I've been picking through the rules and trying to reason why some of the language used is so vague and/or confusing. I think if we use better terminology and sentence structure, we could eliminate some of these issues.
Shah-Syrus Of Horse Grave Horde
Master of the Crotch-Block.

HORDE WIN, *!
User avatar
Syrus
Berserker
Berserker
 
Posts: 813
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:20 pm
Location: Horse Grave (Louisville, KY)

Postby Kyrax » Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:45 pm

I agree that the latter rule is the stronger, but feel that both apply at least by inference.

The rules do have some vagueness, but that is in part by design. We could have very detailed rules that spell out all possibilities, but then to truly understand the rules you'd have to read through pages and pages of specifications in order to understand what is allowed and what isn't. Instead, the rules are by design an outline, allowing some flexibility, both for local interpretations as well as to allow the game to grow and adjust over time to new conditions, new materials and new designs.

We both know that the most important rules are the ones at the top that talk about common sense and creatively interpreting the rules to personal advantage. When you break it all down, the rules are written to help us set up and organize a safe game that is playable and fun. Everything else is just chrome on that chasis. I appreciate your enthusiasm for clarifying the rules or to remove some items that you feel say something other than the interpretations you're hearing here and at events. By digging deeper for the meaning of the rules, you are helping both yourself, your unit and your realm. On the other hand, you probably won't find too much support for a wholesale revision of the rules - I doubt that the War Council wants to spend a ton of time on fixing what already works. Or at least from their perspective it does.
Come to a California event, we only bite when we're Zombies!

Ignore Kyrax, he's old and slow.
User avatar
Kyrax
Grizzled Veteran
Grizzled Veteran
 
Posts: 2647
Joined: Thu May 01, 2003 4:01 pm
Location: Norcalia
Started Fighting: 30 May 1987
Realm: Pelargir-Mallenorod
Unit: Brotherhood of Mithris
Favorite Fighting Styles: Archery

Postby Syrus » Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:24 pm

It is not my intention to overhaul the rules, just pick at some of the more difficult ones that I understand the intention, but finding a way within the rules to clarify points. I will continue to ask questions of this nature whenever one grabs my attention for this reason. I appreciate anyone who helps with these.
Shah-Syrus Of Horse Grave Horde
Master of the Crotch-Block.

HORDE WIN, *!
User avatar
Syrus
Berserker
Berserker
 
Posts: 813
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:20 pm
Location: Horse Grave (Louisville, KY)

Postby Koom Di' Puts » Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:39 pm

Anyone find anything new out on this?
Koom Di' Puts
Bandit
Bandit
 
Posts: 471
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:20 am
Started Fighting: 17 Sep 2000
Realm: Dur D
Unit: Secret
Favorite Fighting Styles: Koom

Postby RavenHeart » Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:28 pm

We've tested them before and had no problems with them... in fact, when a newer fighter grabs one, I feel safer because it doesn't matter which end they hit me with.
High Chieftan of the Dobharchu Donn
Swordbrother to Kinsman Oron the Wolf
User avatar
RavenHeart
Barbarian
Barbarian
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 7:31 pm
Location: CrannMeigeall (Fangorn)

Postby debuenzo » Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:45 pm

any historical accuracy?
Brother of the Black Company
User avatar
debuenzo
Hero
Hero
 
Posts: 1497
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:03 pm
Location: Numenor
Started Fighting: 30 Aug 2003
Realm: Numenor
Unit: Black Company
Favorite Fighting Styles: sword and shield

Postby Koom Di' Puts » Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:46 am

Not sure on that... I wonder if anyone thought to sharpen "Both" ends of the stick?
Koom Di' Puts
Bandit
Bandit
 
Posts: 471
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:20 am
Started Fighting: 17 Sep 2000
Realm: Dur D
Unit: Secret
Favorite Fighting Styles: Koom

Postby Kyrax » Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:52 pm

debuenzo wrote:any historical accuracy?


Probably not. But I have to admit that I like the safety part of this idea, as we'd have a lot fewer pommel-first throws to worry about. Besides, we're talking about light throwing spears, not forged weapons.
Come to a California event, we only bite when we're Zombies!

Ignore Kyrax, he's old and slow.
User avatar
Kyrax
Grizzled Veteran
Grizzled Veteran
 
Posts: 2647
Joined: Thu May 01, 2003 4:01 pm
Location: Norcalia
Started Fighting: 30 May 1987
Realm: Pelargir-Mallenorod
Unit: Brotherhood of Mithris
Favorite Fighting Styles: Archery

Postby savetuba » Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:25 pm

Koom Di' Puts wrote:Not sure on that... I wonder if anyone thought to sharpen "Both" ends of the stick?


They probally did and died from the idea. example: If I threw a jav into a guy, another would have to rip it out of the corpse/break it/pick it up and throw the good end back at me.
Image
User avatar
savetuba
Grizzled Veteran
Grizzled Veteran
 
Posts: 2382
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2003 8:18 pm
Location: Arizona
Started Fighting: 0- 4-2003
Realm: Aberdeen Militia

Postby Koom Di' Puts » Mon May 29, 2006 11:50 pm

savetuba wrote:
Koom Di' Puts wrote:Not sure on that... I wonder if anyone thought to sharpen "Both" ends of the stick?


They probally did and died from the idea. example: If I threw a jav into a guy, another would have to rip it out of the corpse/break it/pick it up and throw the good end back at me.



Well We do have reuseable Javs here...
Have we had anymore progress with this?
Koom Di' Puts
Bandit
Bandit
 
Posts: 471
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:20 am
Started Fighting: 17 Sep 2000
Realm: Dur D
Unit: Secret
Favorite Fighting Styles: Koom

Postby Koom Di' Puts » Mon May 29, 2006 11:51 pm

savetuba wrote:
Koom Di' Puts wrote:Not sure on that... I wonder if anyone thought to sharpen "Both" ends of the stick?


They probally did and died from the idea. example: If I threw a jav into a guy, another would have to rip it out of the corpse/break it/pick it up and throw the good end back at me.


Well we do have reuseable Javs here...
Any progress or any mroe ideas on this?
Koom Di' Puts
Bandit
Bandit
 
Posts: 471
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:20 am
Started Fighting: 17 Sep 2000
Realm: Dur D
Unit: Secret
Favorite Fighting Styles: Koom

Postby Syrus » Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:25 pm

As a historical precedent, the british encountered Zulu warriors throwing spears "fire-hardened at either ends (sic)." This sounds like a double-ended throwing instrument, as it is unnecessary to fire-harden something that is not meant for piercing.

I feel that this would be something that would remove nothing from the game, and add a degree of safety. I saw another pommel-throw a couple of weeks ago, and I'd rather not eat pommel, y'know?
Shah-Syrus Of Horse Grave Horde
Master of the Crotch-Block.

HORDE WIN, *!
User avatar
Syrus
Berserker
Berserker
 
Posts: 813
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:20 pm
Location: Horse Grave (Louisville, KY)

Postby debuenzo » Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:07 am

now, will it only be a throwing weapon, or would it also be used for melee combat?
Brother of the Black Company
User avatar
debuenzo
Hero
Hero
 
Posts: 1497
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:03 pm
Location: Numenor
Started Fighting: 30 Aug 2003
Realm: Numenor
Unit: Black Company
Favorite Fighting Styles: sword and shield

Postby Kage » Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:06 am

Well one thing that can be done is to play test it and see what the results are.
Kage
21st Knight of the Highlands of Chaos
Ebonhold
Coffee with Kage
User avatar
Kage
Slayer
Slayer
 
Posts: 1065
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 10:46 am
Location: Idaho Falls, ID
Realm: Ebonhold

Postby debuenzo » Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:28 am

im just wondering why people dont realize what end theyre throwing
it's a pretty clear-cut distinction i think
i dont think the safety concern outweighs rule changes for javelin, double ended weapons, or both
Brother of the Black Company
User avatar
debuenzo
Hero
Hero
 
Posts: 1497
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:03 pm
Location: Numenor
Started Fighting: 30 Aug 2003
Realm: Numenor
Unit: Black Company
Favorite Fighting Styles: sword and shield

Postby Syrus » Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:55 pm

The problem comes from heated chases and someone reaching down to grab a jav on the run. The heralds have addressed the safety of this when it happens, but I was curious as to why this is not allowed.

My initial response to its' use in melee would be "Yes, just like regular javelins." However, perhaps playtesting would answer some questions like these.
Shah-Syrus Of Horse Grave Horde
Master of the Crotch-Block.

HORDE WIN, *!
User avatar
Syrus
Berserker
Berserker
 
Posts: 813
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:20 pm
Location: Horse Grave (Louisville, KY)

Postby RavenHeart » Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:33 am

We have play-tested it and with the obvious difference in the actual weapon's appearance, we had no problems with them. Yes, both ends were used in melee, and as far as I know, both ends were used for missile combat, but I have never stopped long enough to see which end was flying at me.

I have to say that they are fun effective and safe weapons that do not infringe on our combat at all, and apparently the Zulu used similar, so....
Safety.... check
Playability.... check
Realism.... check

Seems good to me, I will re-start the play-testing here in CrannMeigeall though, and keep you all informed.
High Chieftan of the Dobharchu Donn
Swordbrother to Kinsman Oron the Wolf
User avatar
RavenHeart
Barbarian
Barbarian
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 7:31 pm
Location: CrannMeigeall (Fangorn)

Postby slippy » Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:11 am

yes i would say yes the alexander the great pelters wich had javes rocks and short bows had double ended javs one was the normal metal end and the other was sharpend wood this so would work and be safer i am voting making it possible in the rules.
do not hate those who kill you or feel less of those who you kill.
feeling proud is not as important as having friends around you.
the farther you fly the more fun you're haveing.
User avatar
slippy
Toadie
Toadie
 
Posts: 109
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:54 am
Location: the iron hills

Postby debuenzo » Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:47 pm

i still have never seen anyone hit by the wrong end of a javelin. However, i have seen javelins w/ open cell and cloth on the pommel. If they javelins you guys are familiar w/ have this, then i can see some confusion. However, the javelins i usually see only have camp pad and cloth tape. Which javelin style do you guys use? (post starter and supporters)
Brother of the Black Company
User avatar
debuenzo
Hero
Hero
 
Posts: 1497
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:03 pm
Location: Numenor
Started Fighting: 30 Aug 2003
Realm: Numenor
Unit: Black Company
Favorite Fighting Styles: sword and shield

Postby slippy » Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:50 am

most of the prob is probably with noobs but i think it would be more fun to stab infront of me and behind me at the same time and it might bounce back and get someone els double kill (would be rare and would be close to person falling on to it or it falling on person for double kill) i think would be fun. some reality to double kill with jav.
do not hate those who kill you or feel less of those who you kill.
feeling proud is not as important as having friends around you.
the farther you fly the more fun you're haveing.
User avatar
slippy
Toadie
Toadie
 
Posts: 109
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:54 am
Location: the iron hills

Postby calebmonkey » Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:13 pm

i kinda like this idea or any idea that gives me a chance to use something new
Lt. Chavez B.o.F.
Squire to Sir Chance the Tall
all around nice guy


Forkbeard wrote:When new people demand that I explain the wierd parts of our rules and they do not like my answers, I just tell them that the majority of the smart people in this sport said so, that's why. Shut up and fight.
User avatar
calebmonkey
Hulkamaniac
 
Posts: 1221
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2003 11:43 pm
Location: not the same as always
Started Fighting: 1- 0- 0
Realm: avalon
Unit: BoF
Favorite Fighting Styles: single blue and cold soda

Postby Sir_Mel » Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:40 pm

slippy wrote:most of the prob is probably with noobs but i think it would be more fun to stab infront of me and behind me at the same time and it might bounce back and get someone els double kill (would be rare and would be close to person falling on to it or it falling on person for double kill) i think would be fun. some reality to double kill with jav.
\

I was under the impression that once a missile weapon achieved sufficient deflection, it was considered dead or harmless (due to the fact that it's in the book of war, I believe I'm right). Therefore, a situation like this, however cool it might be, would not be possible.


I also think that even though you've never seen someone throw a javelin the wrong way debuenzo, the fact remains that it could happen. I think it's safe to assume that you've never seen somebody get stabbed in the face with a pommel but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have pommel coverings. We're trying to keep people relatively safe in this sport and accidents do happen. I still remember being hit in the face with a javelin at about 10 ft that was definitely not half thrown (the whole windup kinda gave it away <note: not you, somebody else>), I can't imagine if somebody accidently picked up the javelin without looking and pelted me in the face with the pommel. This is just one of those situations where you may not run into a problem all the time, but it's just better to be safe and allow (or even require) a very different kind of weapon rules, than sorry and have to make a hospital run cause somebody got knocked out.
Sir Melannen Arqueno, The Exemplar
Knighted by Sir Kyrian Hawksword
Minister of Metal
"The rising tide raises all boats."
User avatar
Sir_Mel
Grizzled Veteran
Grizzled Veteran
 
Posts: 2017
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:38 pm
Realm: Dunharrow
Unit: The Amyr
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword Board, Two-stick

Postby slippy » Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:28 am

i agee safe is better and i fergot the deflection thanks for reminding me.
do not hate those who kill you or feel less of those who you kill.
feeling proud is not as important as having friends around you.
the farther you fly the more fun you're haveing.
User avatar
slippy
Toadie
Toadie
 
Posts: 109
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:54 am
Location: the iron hills

Postby Forkbeard » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:43 pm

This is the worst, stupidest reason to make a rule that I ever heard:
the fact remains that it could happen.

Javlins are hard enough to make and keep in passing condition. This would make it imposible to maintain them.
It would effectivlt remove Javlins completly from the feild to require all of them to have striking sufae on both ends.
Also, slippy, no belegarth ranged weapon, including rocks, can't bounce off anything and still do damage. Your doulbe kill dreams are through.
FB
Warlord of the Western Uruk-Hai

Don't call it a comeback
I been here for years
Rockin my peers and puttin suckas in fear
User avatar
Forkbeard
Grizzled Veteran
Grizzled Veteran
 
Posts: 5604
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:46 pm
Location: Kung Foo Island
Started Fighting: 15 Jun 2000
Realm: Aquilonia
Unit: Western Uruk Hai
Favorite Fighting Styles: Just the Tip

Postby debuenzo » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:04 pm

Forkbeard wrote:This is the worst, stupidest reason to make a rule that I ever heard:
the fact remains that it could happen.



im gonna have to agree with forkbeard here...as this was my thinking as well

i mean...i COULD swing a sword by the blade and hit someone with the handle

im a big fan of safety, but throwing a javelin the wrong way isnt the javelin's fault...it's the incompetent and inept thrower.....teach new guys what is acceptable and be strict on them and problems will be kept to a minimum.
Brother of the Black Company
User avatar
debuenzo
Hero
Hero
 
Posts: 1497
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:03 pm
Location: Numenor
Started Fighting: 30 Aug 2003
Realm: Numenor
Unit: Black Company
Favorite Fighting Styles: sword and shield

Postby Koom Di' Puts » Mon May 07, 2007 2:56 pm

Its not that we want ALL jav double ended.... but able to be double ended.

I through one out at beltain (it did upset a few people even though their experimental thing passed)

we had no problems with it, and i would really like to see somethin happen with this
Koom Di' Puts
Bandit
Bandit
 
Posts: 471
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:20 am
Started Fighting: 17 Sep 2000
Realm: Dur D
Unit: Secret
Favorite Fighting Styles: Koom

Postby Aegis » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:37 pm

there was at least 2 double enders at rag that worked fine, saw one at beltaine too...

I did during a battle have to yank a jav out of a new players hand cause he was about to throw it backwards, were like 4 of us screaming at him till i had to jump and pull it away from him, lol.


the safety i concern with making ANY of the javs double ended is the chance that someone will assume a non double ended is double ended and throw it backwards which wouldnt be assumed with only single ends on the field.
Image
User avatar
Aegis
Warrior
Warrior
 
Posts: 783
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:57 am


Return to Rules Discussion And Development

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests