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 Post subject: HACS leg rule
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:16 pm 
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Damage: When hit in the leg, your damaged leg must be drug i.e. cannot leave the ground. A second hit to the same leg will kill you.


What are your thoughts on this? I had an opportunity to try it out at Gencon and I was wondering how the people who participated at Octoberfest felt about it.

Personally, I like the rule for 3 reasons:

1) No more going down on a knee. I've seen so many young fighters with bad knees due to the cumulative damage that fighting on knees can do, especially on hard surfaces.
2) Battles tend to go faster because fighters can move more quickly towards each other and the damaged leg doesn't protect you from shots. Also, you wouldn't see battles where the person down on a leg is actually at an advantage due to a large shield.
3) Realism (although this is not nearly as critical as #1). Realistically, if a person were hit hard enough to hack or cut a leg, the person would be out of the fight completely.

My main concern is that it may encourage fighters to ignore leg shots especially if someone hits a leg twice quickly.

Your opinions?

P.S. (edited after Kegg's post) I can't count! That's what I get for getting a blinding flash of the obvious and not checking everything over. :D

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Last edited by Kyrian on Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:53 am, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:07 pm 
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I didn't get a chance to test out this rule with the HACS system, but I'd be a full supporter to have it changed, as a person with a bad knee from sword fighting, I think it'd be a nice change in the rules.

I'd like to see this go some where if more people feel the same way because I think it could very well save the knees of future sword fighters which I think is a very good cause to have the rule changed.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:33 pm 
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The primary reasons the rule was changed were

1.) To allow for safer for indoor fighting.
2.) To keep people on a knee from being bashed.
3.) To save knees in general.
4.) Some of us (Vhil and Angmarth) tried it at the Darkon Thanksgiving battle last year and it really seemed to improve the fighting.

And in response to Kyrian's original post. There are three types of people in the world. Those that can count and those that can't count.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:54 am 
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I LOVE it. I would have to say that fighting on my knees is probably what I dislike most about fighting.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:55 am 
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Physic wrote:
I LOVE it. I would have to say that fighting on my knees is probably what I dislike most about fighting.


I would think that people who hit the side of my shield with a flail and all the force goes into the shield and the ball rapps around and slaps my arm inside my shield really **** hard... a shot that technicaly I have to take is what I hate more about fighting.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:02 am 
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I like it too.
http://www.thearma.org/essays/kneel.htm

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:10 am 
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/me remembers reading that in like 2003.. it is an old rant. Great points on the leg rule though.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:22 am 
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Winfang wrote:
this is the rule I use for gym class, andI feel that it is a lot more playable. I have also used a pivote foot rule wher your injured leg has to stay planted like in Basketball.

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 Post subject: Re: HACS leg rule
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:47 pm 
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Damage: When hit in the leg, your damaged leg must be drug i.e. cannot leave the ground. A second hit to the same leg will kill you.


The problem I see is people then using that leg to fight with. An injured leg can't support normal body wieght, yet you will probally see people use that leg to steady thier body for a block or to place a shot.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:10 pm 
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The problem I see is people then using that leg to fight with. An injured leg can't support normal body wieght, yet you will probally see people use that leg to steady thier body for a block or to place a shot.


which people do while kneeling, or moving on their knees anyway, so .... either one is just as good (or just as bad) if you evaluate it with that criteria.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:29 pm 
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say bye bye to "gimp and go"

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:10 pm 
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the HACS stuff didn't seem to deal with as much of the open large field fighting, so gimp and go wouldn't be that great of a tactic anyway.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:51 pm 
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yea...i agree with that

it just seems like some people would like to adopt that rule to a larger belegarth field

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:57 am 
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I did not think that I would like it until I play tested it in my gym clas. and a couple of realm practices. I find it to be a better system.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:22 am 
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I'd be all for this. Not only because my knees are shot, but I hate legging a fighter with a tower shield to now be at a disadvantage because of their huge shield, so I unsafely bash them over. Now they have bad knees. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:20 am 
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Magpie wrote:
Quote:
The problem I see is people then using that leg to fight with. An injured leg can't support normal body wieght, yet you will probally see people use that leg to steady thier body for a block or to place a shot.


which people do while kneeling, or moving on their knees anyway, so .... either one is just as good (or just as bad) if you evaluate it with that criteria.


I don't see people streching for a shot on their knees, nor do I see them using the hit leg to spring at someone.

I guess the example I should use is standing on one leg. You can't really fight as well, yet you don't dare put wieght on the injured leg or you might collasp from the pain.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:37 am 
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I've seen people running on dead knees, lunging with dead knees, walking on dead knees, or standing up on dead knees. I do it myself, though not all the time.... When moving I usually try to remember to keep the dead leg limp and use the live knee and my hand or sheild to limp along the ground. Or I try to barrel roll, but that's difficult to do without using muscles in both legs.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:20 am 
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If you sprain your ankle, you limp. You could probably still fight on your feet, but at an obvious disadvantage.

If you break your leg with a compound fracture you aren't going to do anything but fall to the ground and cry.

This is the point people are making. If we are representing injuries, then anything remotely close to being debilitating enough to put you on the ground would effectively take you out of the fight.

Reasons to consider:

1) It makes being legged an obvious disadvantage. (Playability)
2) It is easier on the knees. (Safety)
3) It is a more realistic portrayal of an injury. (Realism - see my above reasons)
4) Improves the fighting. (This is subjective)
5) Removes the bashing a legged opponent. (Safety)
6) Easier to distinguish dead from living. (Playability)

Reasons NOT to consider:

1) It breaks tradition.
2) People would be confused for a time. (Playability)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:32 pm 
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Would anyone be willing to playtest this at a large practice? I'd be interested in hearing some feedback.

A couple (and I made sure to count this time) of things I was thinking of:

1) Would pierces to the leg still be counted the same way as pierces to the arm, i.e., pierces only count towards loss of use, not towards the 2-limb rule? Is there any way to differentiate a pierce to a leg from a hack or smash to a leg. As Peregrine mentioned, maybe a pierced leg would force you to pivot only on that foot and not be able to move?

2) This is MUCH less complicated to explain to a new person than:
a) If you get hit in a leg, drop to that knee.
b) If you get hit in the dead leg, it doesn't count.
c) If you have both knees on the ground, then a hit to either leg is death.
d) Etc...

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:44 pm 
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would the disabled leg still be able to take shots and be a "dead leg"
or would two consecutive hits to a leg be death?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:58 pm 
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For HACS it is any 2 limb hits. Two consecutive hits to the same leg kills you. The specifics of how and why things work the way they do I will leave up to Kegg to answer. HACS also does not distinguish between hacks and stabs for 1 handed weapon damage.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:01 pm 
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I love that rule in HACS and it's something that we should have adopted many years ago. There is no reason, playability or safety or realism, for stabs to so weak in our game. It's only our demand to retain old ways of doing playing do we do it.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:57 pm 
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Okay, if you get hit in the leg, are you REQUIRED to stand? Can I go down on my dead leg. I understand that another hit to the dead leg would be death.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:25 pm 
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Okay, if you get hit in the leg, are you REQUIRED to stand? Can I go down on my dead leg. I understand that another hit to the dead leg would be death.


Based on how I would interpret the rule, I would assume that anyone standing is still alive and anyone who isn't is dead. I'd be leery about allowing anyone to go down on the dead leg since that person would effectively be giving themselves an advantage, i.e., shortening the length of the target area. Granted, it's not a very big advantage and you can still get hit everywhere else. But I do like that standing=alive in reducing confusion. How many times have you walked through a group of the dead and suddenly got hit by someone who was on their knees?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:32 am 
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Getting hit by people you thought are dead is a playability and realism issue. If they're just hanging out and then pick something up to hit me with I'd be angry because they're ghosting which is a playability issue but in real combat a legitimate tactic. If I walk by and they hit me and I realize they were sitting there armed but just being incredibly nonchalant, then they're good at being sneaky and I wasn't paying enough attention. I just hit anyone who is holding a weapon. Similarly, if you're dead and still holding your weapon (barring it being over your head), and people hit you, you don't have a right to complain because they have no way of knowing and people will ghost. The hit everyone with a weapon policy would quickly lead back to people dropping their stuff when they die.

On one leg people wanting to get to point B quickly will hop, which is bad on knees and ankles. Can you balance/pivot on your dragged leg? Can you swing it around? Can you jump and kick a shield with your live leg and land on your dead leg?

Why would a second hit to the already dead leg be death? Shouldn't we then also hang dead arms and if hit again take death? I thought we operated under the "pretend it isn't there" principle.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:50 pm 
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I like this idea, also. We'll Try it out starting after our event next weekend. I'd start at the next practice, but the War is on Saturday and we have a grip o' noobs and I don't want to confuse em before I take em out in public.
And the rule about stabbing being different from slashing has always been gay as hell. I'ts one of the thing I dislike most about Bel. That, and dying from a swat in the asscheek.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:08 pm 
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I think this would be a good change, I've had perpetual knees bruises from fighting before and after fighting at chaos this year on that concrete-like clay ground, I would be all for this. We will also begin play testing this and see how it works.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:11 pm 
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I like this idea, I'd support it!


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:32 pm 
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This is a BAD IDEA. I fight Darkon every saturday, and that is my biggest gripe about there system. Its not a very good way to represent a hit, expecially since with only 20 fighters, its * near impossible to enforce. People use their dead leg for all sorts of things, and they even run after being hit. I MUCH perfer our way of fighting.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:01 pm 
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My mind is against this, but my knees are for it. Getting older sucks.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:42 am 
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What if instead of dragging it, we had them plant it like in Basketball.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:06 am 
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Peregrine's suggestion is much better, but even a legged person can move now.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:45 pm 
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My knees say yes, but my mind has it's misgivings. Hrmm.

I'm not a big fan of fighting on my knees, and I sure hate dealing with some doot with a towershield who is on his knees and completely covered by the * oversized shield. However, I am not entirely sure that new way is going to make too much of a difference, except that people who've been legged aren't going to be able to use the damaged one for stability to defend or attack when needed.

I think i'd like to see it in practice on a trial basis and then see what everyone thinks.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:23 am 
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we should have someone tape both ways and maybe that will help.
if people tend to cheat more with the hacs rule than we can stay with the other however we will not want them to know they have been taped till after then ask for there permision to show it that way there prefrences will not effect the outcome i mean i would be willing to test it.

i know somepeople where knee caps to protect there knees.

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