wooden cores and current rule

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wooden cores and current rule

Postby savetuba » Fri Jun 22, 2007 5:43 pm

1.3.8. All handles of wood Weapons must be taped, including bamboo and rattan.


Now isn't that rule very easy to read? If the handle is wood, you tape it. However, the resent rules question answer suggests checkers will ignore this rule.

Supposing this rule was made to govern saftey issues with wooden cored weapons, but if it was then it would have something to the effect of 'the entire core must be taped'.

Will poor Bortas find that his sword fails due to the handle not being taped? Or that people insist the rule means you tape the entire core to prevent splinters when it breaks? This rule needs clarification.

Should this rule be changed?
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Postby Magpie Saegar » Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:12 am

Note: It doesn't say that wooden handles need to be taped, it says that the handle of a wood weapon needs to be taped. This is an important distinction that appears to be clearly made.

So... What would you say a wooden weapon is? I would argue that a wood weapon is a weapon with the entire core made out of wood. This part is obviously open to interpretation.

I believe that the rule as is allows wooden handles to be untaped as long as the core is not wood. I, personally, am 100% fine with this... especially after having seen a few swords constructed like this and being content with their safety. I think we need to think about WHY this rule is there... IF it's necessary... and HOW it should best be implemented.
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Postby Thorondor » Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:28 am

From what I can determine, the rule is there because if a wooden core splinters, cracks, breaks, etc the resulting splinters would be able to penetrate the foam and cause injury. When the wood is taped, the break would most likely be contained within the tape and wouldn't cause personal injury if/when it breaks over someone.

I would assume a nice wooden handle would be able to pass, but if there's any sign of wear, cracks, or weakness I would be worried about the handle as well as the rest of the weapon. No one needs to have a wooden handle splinter in their hand.

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Postby Big King Jimmy » Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:14 pm

How is a herald, whose checking hundreds of weapons, supposed to be able to tell if you have a handle lathed into your wooden cored weapon, or just the handle is wood?
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Postby Thorondor » Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:18 pm

Big Jimmy wrote:How is a herald, whose checking hundreds of weapons, supposed to be able to tell if you have a handle lathed into your wooden cored weapon, or just the handle is wood?


1) Throw it into the fail until you can find the owner of the weapon and ask.
2) Look at the joint between handle and sword to check if it's either taped or reinforced so it won't snap at the joint.

I'd be just as concerned if the handle was taped badly and I saw some wood though the handle. I'd fail it then to ask the owner if the core was taped well or if it was made of wood at all.

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Postby savetuba » Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:24 pm

Thorondor wrote:I'd fail it then to ask the owner if the core was taped


And there it is again. another reference to an un-written rule. The rules do not say the entire core must be taped.
1.3.8. All handles of wood Weapons must be taped, including bamboo and rattan.


Just the handle.

Theoretically, I could build a sword with a wooden dowel and only the handle needs tape, not the entire core.

Should this rule be re-examined?
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Postby Thorondor » Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:52 pm

savetuba wrote:
Thorondor wrote:I'd fail it then to ask the owner if the core was taped


And there it is again. another reference to an un-written rule. The rules do not say the entire core must be taped.
1.3.8. All handles of wood Weapons must be taped, including bamboo and rattan.

I was aiming for "I'd fail it; to ask the owner..." I apparently couldn't type or proof read too well when I posted.

Not as much a rule as a question I'd ask for personal knowledge. Just watch the weapon or keep it next to you. Someone would come ask about their weapon sitting next to you or come pick it up and you could ask/explain why it hadn't passed yet.

If someone had a bad splinter or cut after a fight, I'd like to be able to somewhat recall what weapons may or may not have caused the injury so it could be checked again. Wooden and other "uncommon" materials can cause injuries as easily as the normal fiberglass and PVC, but if you see a splinter from where they got hit, that's a good indication of either (1) a wooden weapon breaking/splintering or (2) something in the field that could possibly cause additional injuries.

A person checking weapons not only has to make sure the weapons meet all the rules, but they have to make sure there is a reasonable safety to the weapons as well. Hit checks are all about personal opinions that have been calibrated though teaching and fighting over a length of time.
If you have a question about the safety of a weapon, shield, or armor, you should ask to prevent an accident that could be avoided by a simple question or two. If the crafter isn't around, ask someone with more experience than you do (they're almost always around at the events I go to).

If it was safe, it wouldn't fail in the end, but I check everything well, Edhellen weapons, the 16year old's first sword, Angmarth's chainmail, etc to make sure it's safe before allowing it onto the field.
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Postby Oznog » Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:09 pm

It is worthwhile to note that bamboo and rattan are NOT "wood". They're a plant, a type of grass in fact, but they are distinctly different on a structural and biological level and never termed "wood" in the English language.

Certainly there is an intent to include them under the term "wood" in this rule, but the conflict remains. It is nonsensical strategy to resolve the conflict with these examples- this would be like saying "eat more healthy vegetables, including fish and eggs".

In fact, what was the intent of the term? Do Belegarth people actually use geniune wood for weapon cores, like hardwood dowels?
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Postby Kegg » Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:23 pm

I personally think the whole rule should be discarded.

It was written to deal with spears made from 1" dowels which had a tendency to splinter.
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Postby Oznog » Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:13 pm

People actually made 1" wood dowel spears? Wow...

Well, Amtgard certainly makes plenty of use of bamboo in polearms. It's certainly strong. If it does break, it does so without a serious splintering issue and I've never seen anything suggesting there is a need for bamboo to be taped to make them fail in a safer manner.

The main issue- and people have had major fights over this- is padding the shaft. Bamboo or sturdy fiberglass, people have definitely busted fingers on them. Just how is a matter up for debate, sometimes it's a block but it seems like the most dangerous part is when trying to knock the shaft out of the way so you can run up on someone which is generally legal in Amtgard as long as you don't actually grab the weapon.
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Postby Big King Jimmy » Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:39 pm

Oznog wrote:People actually made 1" wood dowel spears? Wow...

Well, Amtgard certainly makes plenty of use of bamboo in polearms. It's certainly strong. If it does break, it does so without a serious splintering issue and I've never seen anything suggesting there is a need for bamboo to be taped to make them fail in a safer manner.

The main issue- and people have had major fights over this- is padding the shaft. Bamboo or sturdy fiberglass, people have definitely busted fingers on them. Just how is a matter up for debate, sometimes it's a block but it seems like the most dangerous part is when trying to knock the shaft out of the way so you can run up on someone which is generally legal in Amtgard as long as you don't actually grab the weapon.


Our shafts are properaly padded. This isn't an issue in our sport.
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Postby Soo Ma Tai » Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:06 am

It should be done away with, I haven't even seen a wooden cored weapon since the mid 90s. With the improvements in core tech, I doubt we will ever see them again.
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Postby bo1 » Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:15 pm

i would like to agree, but i did see some wood cores around in the ast year, few but some.

maybe we should eliminate wood as a core and allow bamboo only( apart from synthetic cores fiber glass, graphite, kite spar and such).

also maybe rattan as well, both bamboo and rattan are reeds, and as such they tend to broom out( like a cheap kitchen broom), not snap and have slivers. This would solve the problem and also allow for fancy turned handles on fiberglass weapons.
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Postby savetuba » Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:48 pm

Yet I can buy a 12' wooden dowel and turn it into a spear. Suddenly I have a wood core weapon that if the rule was removed would have some safety issues.
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Postby Big King Jimmy » Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:11 pm

Savetuba, did you even ready Bo's post?
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