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Please read the article below before voting. ... If the rules were to be changed, do you think draw cuts and half-swording should be allowed?
Both should be allowed 12%  12%  [ 5 ]
Half-swording should be allowed but not draw cuts 39%  39%  [ 16 ]
Draw cuts should be allowed but not half-swording 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Neither should be allowed 46%  46%  [ 19 ]
The rules should be made more complex to differenciate between the many types of striking surfaces (My sword can draw cut but yours can't) 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 41
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 Post subject: Sharpness
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:05 pm 
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Anybody who has ever sharpened an axe on a grindstone knows that you do not sharpen an axe and a knife at the same angle. The narrow angle of a knife blade would quickly make an axe blade chip the first time you used it to cut wood.

What is not commonly known is that the same is true of sword blades. Over history there are hundreds of types of swords and each one was used in specific ways and constructed with its intended use in mind.

Historical rapiers and katanas, for example are both "knife sharp" and can slice a man simply by laying the blade against the target and pressing firmly while pulling back on the blade. This is called a draw cut.

German zweihanders on the other hand, were created to knock the metal heads off opposing pikes and were not sharp at all. This is why ancient german swordfighting techniques contain so many maneuvers where the sword-wielder grasps the blade to get better control of the point or to bash an opponent with the heavy pommel. In Belegarth they call this half-swording.

By the way, for those that think "sharpness" has any bearing on a sword's ability to hack people apart:

Blunt European longsword cutting a straw mat

How does this affect Belegarth rules? Quite simply, while the goal of the rules appears to be to cheaply and safely recreate melee weapon combat, the Belegarth rules by necessity have to be simple so must contain one set of rules for all swords and cannot acknowledge the real world differences between a katana and a European hand and a half sword.

So the next time you see a discussion about allowing draw cuts or half-swording and people start bringing up what a real sword can do, ask yourself "which sword?"

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:35 pm 
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I admit that different people play this sport in different ways, but I firmly believe that the rules as they are (i.e., not changed) already allow for halfswording. I think this is good, and regularly incorporate it into my fighting style. (though my sword IS single-sided anyway).

The problem with drawcuts is that, without sufficient force, there are going to be times when people don't know that they've been slashed. I wouldn't have a problem registering these hits, USUALLY, and many others wouldn't. but many would. Since there will not be any actual pain involved to let you know you've been cut, what will happen if someone is wearing armor or heavy garb and they don't see it happen? No sound, no visual, no physical, .... they simply can't reliably know that they've been hit.

I like them in concept, but I can't get past the playability of it. I mean... if you do a really obvious drawcut on me that I notice, I'll probably take it. But I wouldn't want to write them into the rules.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:49 pm 
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The rules aren't broken. Don't fix them.

Part of my training is learning a style of swing that is functionally a draw cut. Here, the problem seems like it is the issue of "sufficient force." In general conventions, if a sword lands on someone and just rubs around and doesn't "hit" hit, then it's probably not going to have sufficient force. However, if the tip of a sword whips by and clips someone so hard that they have to step back and recover, then they should probably take the hit. For an oriental-style draw to work in this game, that is the expectation it has to meet.

Half-swording is perfectly legal as the rules currently stand; when you are in control of your weapon, you can hold it anywhere so long as you strike with a striking surface. The second an opponent takes control, you let go of the blade or lose the limb.

Just because someone sees the rules in a slightly different way and realizes that something can be added to the game that makes it more fun in a safe, playable, and realistic doesn't mean we punish them by shouting the idea down. We should praise their creativity, see if it works in general conventions, and go from there. We've already seen that half-swording and draw-style shots work with the magic 3 (safety, playability, and realism), so what's the issue? It seems like the same basic thing is going on here as it did with rocks; a few people got ticked, so instead of adapting and learning to compensate they're causing a ruckus and trying to ban them outright.

Please stop the ruckus. Thank-you.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:16 am 
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The Rules are that a strike must have sufficient force behind it to do damage if it were the real-world counterpart of itself. To me, that means that if someone's sword ends up between my arm and body after they miss a thrust, tough **** for them, but if a Red wielder lays his sword on me and this basically knocks me over with a draw cut, well, I'll probably take that.

The Rules work, they're just poorly worded in most cases.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:32 am 
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Draw cuts? Are you kidding? Do you see the number of ninja kids we have NOW???

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:29 pm 
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Big Jimmy wrote:
Draw cuts? Are you kidding? Do you see the number of ninja kids we have NOW???



Thank you for saying what we were all thinking.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:28 pm 
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My argument against Half swording is this:

The book of war states that you can't grab your opponent's striking surface. why should that be any different from grabbing your own striking surface.

Within the rules, we have provisions for this: the single bladed weapon, haft padding, and non-striking surfaces. These are parts of a weapon which is safe to grab. Also, we have handles on weapons for a reason, as a place for you to put your hand.

If you want to half sword, fine, do it with a single edged weapon, or on non-striking surfaces. Doing so on acutal striking surface can risk damage to a weapon that might not be noticed until it hurts someone.

Draw cutting is just stupid in this game, and has already been covered enough by the BoW (sufficent force) and this thread.

People are being really defensive about all this for such a minor thing, might I add. It's ok for people to give their opinions about things that may differ from your own.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:43 pm 
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Cyric wrote:
My argument against Half swording is this:

The book of war states that you can't grab your opponent's striking surface. why should that be any different from grabbing your own striking surface.


Because it says "opponent's striking surface". Not "Any striking surface".

It makes a very clear and concise difference between your striking surface and your opponent's.

That nulls your entire argument against it.

Now, if you want to motion to have that rule changed, you could, but I doubt it would succeed because A. There is no safety issue involved, B. it doesn't break the game, and C. there are countless techniques that employ it.

Cyric wrote:
Draw cutting is just stupid in this game, and has already been covered enough by the BoW (sufficent force) and this thread.


I agree that draw cutting doesn't appear to have a place in this sport. I think it would add more confusion than there is now.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:23 pm 
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Just because the book of war states opponent's striking surface doesn't mean there is a difference between that and your own striking surface. it's still all striking surface. There is nothing in the Book of War saying you can grab your own striking surface. You are not immune to your own hits. You should take hits anytime you hit yourself with your own weapon, such as a flail bouncing off your own back. To me, that means there isn't a difference between an opponent's striking surface and your own.

Furthermore, i'm not arguing a rules change. i'm arguing the interpretation of an existing rule.

From where i'm sitting, my argument still seems valid.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:17 pm 
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Cyric wrote:
Just because the book of war states opponent's striking surface doesn't mean there is a difference between that and your own striking surface.


...Where is the logic there? The BoW is intentionally vague; if ithere is a specifically mentioned distinction of opponent's striking surface, then there is a difference.

Quote:
You are not immune to your own hits. You should take hits anytime you hit yourself with your own weapon, such as a flail bouncing off your own back. To me, that means there isn't a difference between an opponent's striking surface and your own.


The reason there is a distinction between hitting yourself and grabbing your own weapon is defined by the BoW.

3.2.1. Weapons which strike with sufficient force can score a hit and/or Injury to the Target Area

3.4.2. All Injury effects must be accurately portrayed and reported.


Here, Rule 3.2.1 does not discriminate between yours, your opponents, or your ally's weapon; therefore, you can damage yourself by striking one of your own target areas with sufficient force. When combined with rule 3.4.2, there is no excuse for someone blowing off shots they accidentally hit themselves with.

However, there is a distinction made in the area of hands and feet:

3.1.5. Hand(s) - Area below the wrist (exclusive). An empty Hand is a legal Target Area. Any Injury to the Hand is considered Injury to the Arm. A Hand on a Weapon or Shield is considered part of that Weapon or Shield.

The italicized portion is the most relevant to this discussion; note that it does not say "on the handle" or "wielding," merely "on." Therefore, halfswording is perfectly legal. This is the basic premise that allows quarterstaves to function; wielding a staff properly requires use of the entire staff for ultimate versatility. Would a quarterstaff cut open the hand of the person wielding it? No, it would not.

Similarly, and as the most recent video evidence has demonstrated, properly wielding a european sword blade would not cut the hand of a wielder who were to halfsword. The uinversal division of all weapons into the 5 basic categories defined by the BoW, therefore, means that ALL blades in our game may be halfsworded.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:37 am 
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Elebrim wrote:
Cyric wrote:
Just because the book of war states opponent's striking surface doesn't mean there is a difference between that and your own striking surface.


...Where is the logic there? The BoW is intentionally vague; if ithere is a specifically mentioned distinction of opponent's striking surface, then there is a difference.


But where does it say anything about your own striking surface? Just because it doesn't say anything about it doesn't mean that its ok. Like i said, a striking surface is a striking surface.

Elebrim wrote:
Quote:
You are not immune to your own hits. You should take hits anytime you hit yourself with your own weapon, such as a flail bouncing off your own back. To me, that means there isn't a difference between an opponent's striking surface and your own.


The reason there is a distinction between hitting yourself and grabbing your own weapon is defined by the BoW.

3.2.1. Weapons which strike with sufficient force can score a hit and/or Injury to the Target Area

3.4.2. All Injury effects must be accurately portrayed and reported.


Here, Rule 3.2.1 does not discriminate between yours, your opponents, or your ally's weapon; therefore, you can damage yourself by striking one of your own target areas with sufficient force. When combined with rule 3.4.2, there is no excuse for someone blowing off shots they accidentally hit themselves with.

However, there is a distinction made in the area of hands and feet:

3.1.5. Hand(s) - Area below the wrist (exclusive). An empty Hand is a legal Target Area. Any Injury to the Hand is considered Injury to the Arm. A Hand on a Weapon or Shield is considered part of that Weapon or Shield.

The italicized portion is the most relevant to this discussion; note that it does not say "on the handle" or "wielding," merely "on." Therefore, halfswording is perfectly legal. This is the basic premise that allows quarterstaves to function; wielding a staff properly requires use of the entire staff for ultimate versatility. Would a quarterstaff cut open the hand of the person wielding it? No, it would not.

Similarly, and as the most recent video evidence has demonstrated, properly wielding a european sword blade would not cut the hand of a wielder who were to halfsword. The uinversal division of all weapons into the 5 basic categories defined by the BoW, therefore, means that ALL blades in our game may be halfsworded.


If you grab your opponents' blade, you lose the limb. There is no swing, no force involved. Do you simply lose the limb because your opponent has a hand on the weapon?

What if you are halfswording, and i sneak up behind you and grab the handle of your weapon? does that suddenly make your sword my sword, and thus you lose your limb?

Sufficient force, in this case, is voided.

The hand on weapon rule is meant to make it so if you get hit in the hand it doesn't count as an arm shot, to help the gameplay along. Can you imagine what the game would be like if you had to take arm every time you got hit in the hand? The rules is not meant to make your hand invincible every time it is in contact with any part of a weapon. Again, this is a poorly worded section of the BoW. I feel the intent of the rule was that your hand is considered part of the weapon if it's in contact with the handle of a sword or shield.

Quarterstaves are also built with handles. No one runs around wielding a foam 2X4 with no handle on it.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:38 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:30 am 
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I heard that the "hand on opponent's weapon" rule was to prevent damage to swords. Because if you grab an opponents' sword in combat, there will likely be twisting/etc which will damage the sword quicker and make it unuseable.

However, if you are wielding your own sword with one hand on the blade (and you are the only person in control of the sword), there is no reason for twisting to occur.. i.e., the sword's blade will remain safe.

Quote:
But where does it say anything about your own striking surface? Just because it doesn't say anything about it doesn't mean that its ok. Like i said, a striking surface is a striking surface.


You have yet to reply to our argument.

1) no sufficient force, thus: don't lose hand
2) hand on weapon is part of weapon, i.e., not a target area, ergo: don't lose hand.

Your response, as I see it, is this:
A striking surface would normally do damage to a hand in these circumstances, so we should ignore the logical implication of the rule in question, since we're not specifically allowed to do this specific activity.

Problem 1) based on my number 1&2 above, a hand would NOT normally take damage in these circumstances, according to the rules as they are written.

Problem 2) the use of the word "opponents'" in this rule is specific for a reason. As the rules are written, there is no rule against grabbing your striking surface. You can argue that you shouldn't all you want, but there is no justification for enforcing your new interpretation.

Problem 3) Our arguments are based on what is in the rules. Your arguments seem to be based on your reading new things into the rules. If that means one of us is practicing creative interpretation of the rules.... who would that be?

also, if what you said is true:
Quote:
The hand on weapon rule is meant to make it so if you get hit in the hand it doesn't count as an arm shot, to help the gameplay along.

then why are you allowed to selectively apply it where you see fit?

And,
Quote:
What if you are halfswording, and i sneak up behind you and grab the handle of your weapon? does that suddenly make your sword my sword, and thus you lose your limb?

I would say that in this case the ownership is in contention and the rules are vague on this point. If it's your weapon that an opponent has a hand on (and in this situation, obviously, you have two hands on it)... then it's hardly your opponents' weapon. However, the transition point is vague, and whenever there are multiple people's hands on a weapon, it is more likely that there will be twisting and struggle involved. So, while it's vague, I would agree that you should either let go INSTANTLY (before the weapon is in your opponent's control), or you should lose the limb.

I don't believe that that is true BECAUSE sufficient force is voided. I mean, it is, but I believe that's true because THERE IS A RULE AGAINST having your hand on an opponent's blade.

IE, because there's something written in the rules about it.


p.s., sorry for getting worked up about this. I'll take a break from posting for a while.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:25 am 
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Quote:
Just because it doesn't say anything about it doesn't mean that its ok.


Actually, in an intentionally vague exclusive (in that it lists exclusions, not inclusions) rules system, it does mean that it's okay. If the BoW said, say, "3.7.5. Gripping the striking surface of any Weapon results in the disabling of that limb." then, well, sure. But it says, specifically, "3.7.5. Gripping the striking surface of an opponents Weapon results in the disabling of that limb." because it's an issue of playability. Otherwise, you dictate that putting your hand on a club makes it fall off. Your hand, that is. That's patently silly. Having your arm fall off if you grab an opponent's club is sensible from a playability standpoint, at least.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:50 am 
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This thread has been moved over to the Rules Discussion & Development forum.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:56 pm 
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I have made my points and stand by my reasoning. People are getting way to worked up over a very negligble and unimportant rule of the game.

If you'd like to read further into it and speak for me, i'll just let you go ahead and finish the argument for me, then.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:11 pm 
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I haven't read the responses, so if I'm doing old hat the only reason is I want my answer to be raw opinion. Half swording I don't think could work, since it adds that gripping the striking surface, which seems to be an issue with blocking unless it's a clearly marked single edge blade or by the sides of the sword on a double edge (which is a great way to * up weapons so it doesn't happen often) So I don't even wanna deal. I can see how this may appeal to redsword fighters but if I went that route I'd stay hand and a half to be safe. That's the best I think we can reasonably do - I mean halfswording involves delivering strikes with the pommel, and there's no way in hell I wanna humor that in a "no armour required sport"

I wouldn't mind something about draw cuts, I honor them because I believe they're more effective - if you've been playing the game long enough you have at least a little appreciation for the difference between hitting people with padded weapons and actually trying to use a sword. This is hard to explain, but if I, in close quarters lay my blade across your chest/gut whatever and not by striking but by stepping away, using my blade to transfer that energy where my sword is the fulcrum for that energy (i.e. pushing off of you using my body weight to direct the cut) than I'd consider that much more effective at slicing than the cudgling effect of a sword blade that we mimic. I do this by instinct, not on purpose, and my primary method of fighting with blades is short sword so it happens while infighting fairly often.

I don't expect you to take this, I realize the difference between draw cuts and sword tag or sword dodgeball which is basically what the attitude of the sport reflects, and that's fine, I can deliver a blow pretty quickly after a draw cut anyway, and if I don't and I get killed, I don't really care because I consider it more efficient anyway.

But if you did this to my stomach and it were a real blade my entrails would be MUCH more likely to be spilling out than with a cudgel like strike, broken skin sure perhaps a gash but skin is elastic and an actual slice could be much more traumatic. There's a difference between cutting and striking, and thus I honor it on principle.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:30 pm 
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Cyric wrote:
.... Doing so on acutal striking surface can risk damage to a weapon that might not be noticed until it hurts someone.


This is the first time that I have heard anyone say that halfswording may pose a safety issue. I'm surprised all the replies that followed didn't agree or disagree.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:50 pm 
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Kyrian wrote:
This thread has been moved over to the Rules Discussion & Development forum.


Doesn't this limit the number of people that can vote in the poll? I had intended to start a second thread in Rules Discussion but my approval didn't come before I left town.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:05 am 
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The Lost Celt wrote:
But if you did (a draw cut) to my stomach and it were a real blade my entrails would be MUCH more likely to be spilling out than with a cudgel like strike, broken skin sure perhaps a gash but skin is elastic and an actual slice could be much more traumatic. There's a difference between cutting and striking, and thus I honor it on principle.


Did you read the initial article or see the video link in it or is this reply based just on the poll?
Here's another video showing what a strike can do.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:01 am 
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Thomas MacFinn wrote:
Kyrian wrote:
This thread has been moved over to the Rules Discussion & Development forum.


Doesn't this limit the number of people that can vote in the poll? I had intended to start a second thread in Rules Discussion but my approval didn't come before I left town.


You have a point but the thread had basically been hijacked into talking about some specific rules in Belegarth. To me, it seemed to be a discussion better suited for the Rules Discussion forum.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:25 pm 
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Thomas MacFinn wrote:
Did you read the initial article or see the video link in it or is this reply based just on the poll?
Here's another video showing what a strike can do.


Heh, it was based on the poll, I wanted to read other people's reasoning on the topic after a raw reply.

I'm a little suprised at the video, all I know is I've always been told that hacking and cutting are two different things with european blades, the latter being a tad more difficult - perhaps this is at the hands of a less experienced wielder, I dunno - guess I'll have to get some straw mats and find out ;)

I still hold on my opinions though - I'll honor draw cuts but I don't expect everyone else to for the sake of simplicity

Halfswording is a taboo topic at best around here - where some people consider blocking while holding a blade a huge nono, I don't think anyone could easily make a safe design to cover all aspects of the fighting style, and I think the hilts could have some pretty spectacular failures. Lets face it, if someone started turning their claymores around to bash you with the handle there's a chance it could result in a fistfight ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:07 am 
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The Lost Celt wrote:
But if you did this to my stomach and it were a real blade my entrails would be MUCH more likely to be spilling out than with a cudgel like strike, broken skin sure perhaps a gash but skin is elastic and an actual slice could be much more traumatic. There's a difference between cutting and striking, and thus I honor it on principle.


I honor draw-cuts as well. I tend to grapple at times and frequently lock-up with my opponent, and have taken them down/been taken down many times with draw cuts across the belly or chest. Its just far more efficient in very close quarters, and to be honest more realistic than trying to wrap-shot them on the back when I can simply gut them. As far as half-swording is concerned I only support them as a means of blocking shots.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:51 pm 
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Quote:
if someone started turning their claymores around to bash you with the handle there's a chance it could result in a fistfight


... That's not what we mean by halfswording. Yes, that was a technique that was used, but no one is suggesting doing that in Belegarth. You may only strike with the striking surface, after all.

Half-swording, as we are using the term, could take the form of placing your off-hand on your striking surface to help guide a stab in to place, or grabbing your striking surface to help you successfully block an attack. Half-swording, i.e., making your sword half as long... not reversing it.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:20 pm 
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Thanks for clarifying, I either thought I read it in the beginning or was thinking too far ahead.

You can achieve the same technique using a small glaive or naginata - without grabbing the striking surface - which isn't really meant to be *forefully* gripped from the sides anyways.

Hand on the blade for blocking or guiding a stab I wouldn't have issue - but I understand it as a finesse thing and I keep my hand open. (wild green stabs or blocks where the red swings back and smacks someone upside the head is no good)

the catch 22 is if both hands aren't on that handle at the end of a shot the double damage may be negated....

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:03 am 
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i think that if you hit someone with your hand on a striking surface you would apply sufficiant force to the blade thus giving enough force to cut your hand same with blocking your sword would gain sufficiant force.

and on the chopping verses slicing i find that even with the sharper swords chopping is more efficiant except when in close quarters but if i am grappling more then likley the sword would not have sufficiant pressure to cut me bad enough to make me die or even stop if it did i would more than be happy to take it but most of the time it doesn't.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:58 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:41 am 
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me and punctuation don't agree some times, and this is off topic.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:19 pm 
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Cyric said: "Just because the book of war states opponent's striking surface doesn't mean there is a difference between that and your own striking surface.

Elbrim said: "...Where is the logic there? The BoW is intentionally vague; if ithere is a specifically mentioned distinction of opponent's striking surface, then there is a difference."

It SHOULD BE a COMMON SENSE Logic. It's not vague- it's just a simple fact that a long time ago- we used common sense- matter of fact- there was a general standing order "Common sense supersedes all loopholes"!!!! We designed and kept the rules as simple as possible so that there could be a little flexability with rules and interpretation.
BUT- it seems that over the last 5 years- more people want to create a rule to completely define and rule every point within Belagarth. Do you know what it's gonna be like if this continues? a BOW- the size of a New York phone book????
I have to agree with Cyric- this is within the rul- also- as mentioned above- the use of a single blades sword- allowed for a fighting style that you could grasp the sword.


Elbrim said: "However, there is a distinction made in the area of hands and feet:
3.1.5. Hand(s) - Area below the wrist (exclusive). An empty Hand is a legal Target Area. Any Injury to the Hand is considered Injury to the Arm. A Hand on a Weapon or Shield is considered part of that Weapon or Shield.
The italicized portion is the most relevant to this discussion; note that it does not say "on the handle" or "wielding," merely "on." Therefore, halfswording is perfectly legal. This is the basic premise that allows quarterstaves to function; wielding a staff properly requires use of the entire staff for ultimate versatility. Would a quarterstaff cut open the hand of the person wielding it? No, it would not. "

uh- unless bladed- a quarterstaff would be blunt damage- like a mace, flail, hammer, etc. Could it 'blunt" damage the weilder????? also- Quarterstaffs have proved over and over to be one of the worst weapons every used in Belegarth. I have seen the "newbie" attempt the quarterstaff SO many times and get munched... BUT- I would be glad to see you at Octoberfest- with your Quarterstaff- and we can test this theory.

Elbrim said: "Similarly, and as the most recent video evidence has demonstrated, properly wielding a european sword blade would not cut the hand of a wielder who were to halfsword. The uinversal division of all weapons into the 5 basic categories defined by the BoW, therefore, means that ALL blades in our game may be halfsworded."

KISS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! again- here we go with a billion rules that use to be 2-3 pages. BTW- KISS: [b]Keep It Simple for the Stupid or Keep It Simple Stupid!!!

If I reach out and grap someones blade-or my own- and their is sufficient force to be a hit- I lose an arm. Do you know what we do if we start making classifications, rules, and standards to ever sword ever created in the history of the world as well as all fanatasy??????
We'd also have to reclass & re-design the difference in cuts and blunt damage.
We had that a long time ago- was called a "Black" weapon- and IT DID NOT WORK.....

Many people that have been fighting for a little while do not see how much time has gone into the rules. Remember our beggining was like back in 1976- which is a LOT of play testing and fine tunning of the rules.

But- it could happen that someone of less that 3 years fighting- could know so much more that the whole population of Beleagrth & Dagorhir- and almost 30 years of play, creation, invention, play testing, rule making and such...
I guess ANYTHING is possible.

Respectfully[/b]

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:50 pm 
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I find it funny that despite historical references people only want to see it one way and one way only. I'm sure we could trace this same argument back to '76 when the original rules were wrote.

And if we want to follow the kiss principals then I present the following:
Quote:
3.1. Target Area Definitions:
3.1.1. Body - Area bounded by the base of neck (inclusive), shoulder-arm joint (inclusive), hip-leg socket (inclusive), groin, and buttocks (inclusive).
3.1.2. Arm(s) - Area bounded by the wrist (inclusive) and the shoulder-arm joint (exclusive).
3.1.3. Leg(s) - Area bounded by the ankle (inclusive) and hip-leg socket (exclusive).
3.1.4. Head - Area above the base of neck (exclusive).
3.1.5. Hand(s) - Area below the wrist (exclusive). An empty Hand is a legal Target Area. Any Injury to the Hand is considered Injury to the Arm. A Hand on a Weapon or Shield is considered part of that Weapon or Shield.
3.1.6. Feet – Area below the ankle (exclusive). A Foot is a legal Target Area if it is off the ground. Any Injury to the Foot is considered Injury to the Leg.

3.7.3. Blocking a Weapon strike by laying a Weapon against a Target Area and/or Shield is illegal.
3.7.4. Sheathed or otherwise worn Weapons cannot block attacks.

I don't see:
3.1.7. Held Weapon - A Weapon with a Hand on it.
3.7.8. Blocking a Weapon strike by holding a Weapon against a non Target Area is illegal.

Using KISS, how does one arrive at the fact of 'I lose my arm if you hit my blade when both my hands are on my weapon'?

And if you really want it to be more complex, suppose I had armor on my hand. What damage did that strike do? Blue or red? Or was it green because I was palming the stabbing tip at the time. Or maybe it was yellow because your shot obviously passed through my weapon like it wasn't there and hit my arm.

If you really want to follow KISS, quit arguing over that style and learn how to beat it. That would be much simpler than arguing whether some one can or can't do it because the rules have a gray area on the subject.

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