1 Handed Green vs Armor

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Postby Mekoot Rowan » Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:24 pm

Arrakis, you never said that you wanted a merger, but that seems to be what your proposed rule changes are doing. By making green weapons do a combat hit and counting pierced limbs toward death you're making stabbing and slashing do the exact same kind of damage.

Noone is saying that thrusting will become slashing, that's just stupid. They'll always be checked in different ways. What I'm saying is that there is no difference in the way the two types of damage are taken in your changes. While they would still be two different classes in writing, the effect of the weapons on the field would be almost exactly the same. That is what I meant by merging the two classes. If they both do the same thing then how are they different out on the field?

Do I want greens to be able to "keep up" with blues? Of course, but not if that means making the damage they do exactly the same. By my way of thinking greens already "keep up" and there isn't really any change necessary. As I was saying before, not every target is armored. There are plenty of people out there that a one handed stab will kill or injure, even more if you're accurate with those stabs. This is exactly the dimension I'm talking about. What you hate is what I like. You have to know who you can and can't stab, or be ready to have them call armor on you.

I guess I just don't see your realism arguement about the physics of armor as holding much water. If the changes went into effect as you propose then stabs would have to hit armor twice before going through. How is that more realistic? Why would an armor that stopped one stab not stand up to a second one? I suppose that it could hit in the exact same place, but I don't think I have to tell you, our resident ME how unlikely that is.

There is no need to start ranting about wild changes that would make garb into armor. I don't think anyone here is making any kind of outrageous claims like that (except me earlier when I failed at rule reading). If we really wanted to be realistic about who would and would not be able to fight, one limb would be death, or at least you would be out of the fight. We have loads of rules that are designed to increase longevity (the 'invincible leg' rule for example), why is it that this one is such a sticking point?

Tuba, in response to your question you would do the same thing any blue wielder does, either ask their armor condition or stab them and hope. Alternatively you could just use two hands and not worry about it. Remember that it is up to the armor wearing person to keep track of their armor and report its condition honestly. If they don't then we have a problem that is much bigger than this ruling.
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Postby Arrakis » Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:24 pm

If the changes went into effect as you propose then stabs would have to hit armor twice before going through.


The armor doesn't get poked through; the stabs do partial damage to the person wearing the armor and two partial damages equals one incapacitating blow. That's the way the rules for blue weapons v. armor work, too.

I just don't see any reason stabs should be weakened in the manner they currently are.

*shrug*

I guess we're just of different opinions on this.
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Postby Mekoot Rowan » Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:57 am

Arrakis wrote:I guess we're just of different opinions on this.


Exactly.
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Postby Elebrim » Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:47 am

Again with the math...

And that isn't the way it works for blues. One hit to an armored target area is one hit; the armor conveys an entire extra point of protection. What you are suggesting is fundamentally changing the function of piercing weapons, bringing them on par with blue and red weapons.

Why are stabs considered to be in a weakened form as they are? Is it because the rules make it more challenging to successfully kill someone via a thrust? Or because armor is "too powerful"? It seems as though the problem isn't with the rules as they stand, but the philosophy behind them.
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Postby Thomas MacFinn » Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:52 am

I think the problem for those wanting to change the rule is a realism issue. In real life, thrusts are more effective against armor than slashes.
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Postby Nakamoto Amuro » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:54 pm

Arrakis wrote:Remember, I'm not arguing for instakills with one-hand greens, and personally I'm not arguing for stabs only dealing damage to leather or chain. My revision is simple: Green weapons do one point of damage to any (armored or unarmored) target area and do two points of damage when wielded two-handed.


That sounds very fair. I've always had a problem with the current rule regarding stabs to armor. Historically speaking, armor was more susceptible to compromise by being pierced than by being hacked to pieces, far less surface resistance on an arrow or spear tip than the whole cutting edge of a sword or ax. Why have we been ignoring a historic and very physical fact for so long?
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Postby Nakamoto Amuro » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:56 pm

Post #1000!

My apologies.. proceed.
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Re: 1 Handed Green vs Armor

Postby Satanaka » Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:14 pm

:angel:
Last edited by Satanaka on Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1 Handed Green vs Armor

Postby Mercer » Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:35 pm

Saki - I'm with you on some stuff, but (and I know it's a futile request, but I have to make it) could you be less of an *, for just a brief portion of your life? It'd be a great favor to the sport, and to me, and I think you'd find it an opportunity to grow. Just a thought.
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Re: 1 Handed Green vs Armor

Postby Angmarth » Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:55 am

In Arnor, one of our house rules is "Any two damaged limbs is death." It seems to work just fine, and makes the game simpler. In order to play test some of this talk, we have recently adopted (temporarily) the rule that "all pole-arms are red but a shield may only be broken with a strike". Effectively, we are making spears red. We have taken away their ability to destroy a shield, but are seeing how that having them deal damage vs. armor when used one handed plays out. So far, it greatly increases the effectiveness of a spear but has not unbalanced the weapon. After a little more play testing, I think it would be something worth thinking about.
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Re: 1 Handed Green vs Armor

Postby Arrakis » Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:16 am

My main concern with this proposal was that it would bring one-handed stabbing swords (Blue/Greens) up to a reasonable level of ability against armor. It's terribly frustrating to take a beautiful open shot with your stab-tip and then realize that the guy's wearing mail.
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