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 Post subject: Full Helms and metal knee/elbow cops
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:09 am 
Barbarian
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What is the explanation as to why these are not allowed? Seeing as some people are getting much nicer armor kits it seems silly to me that they have to be modified to fit these rules.

I would love to wear my SCA kit onto the field but these rules prevent that. Drakkar has some very impressive equipment that he had to modify to make work and he can still not wear his helms.

The helmet rule especially does not make sense to me. If it is a safety issue I do not comprehend how half of a metal helm is less dangerous then a full helm.

Im just curious why these rules exist.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:02 am 
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The knees and elbows rule has to remain as long as we allow grappling, shield bashing, and other such full contact fun-ness and don't require everyone to wear armor.

Two reasons:

1. Someone's knee or elbow accidentally landing on you. Sure, there's the same danger with other parts, but these could be especially bad.

2. Most cops spread to some degree when flexed, which can lead to dangerous catching or cutting situations.

As for the helmets, it's because most SCA helmets (you know, the ones with all the bars on their faces) are ugly, look rediculous, and shouldn't count as armor on those bars. TBH, I actually prefer the Dag wording of the rule (no metal helms with non-period grills), which bans that sort of SCAdian helm while allowing for period full-metal designs.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:11 pm 
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The way I've heard it explained is that SCA fighters have an authorization proceedure to ensure that everyone in the field is acting in a safe manner. Do something blatantly unsafe and you could get your authorization card pulled.

Belegarth makes no such guarantees about the common sense of their fighters and relies on the equipment to be safe despite the actions of the user.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:58 pm 
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I pretty much agree with everything Oisin said.

I would be all for allowing full metal helms that aren't the lame looking SCA grill helms.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:06 pm 
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In terms of appearance, I am far more concerned about the garb of some players than what a full metal helm with a lame bar grill looks like.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:09 pm 
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Amen, brother Kenny . . . I'd love to see the garb standard ratcheted up a few notches.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:21 pm 
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I think that as the average age of Belegarth expands more money will be pumped into this game to make it have a better appearance. Since the majority of armorers out there are focusing mostly on the SCA we are limiting ourselves toward a better look by having these rules. With more and more crossover going on with all these sports it would certainly help financially and be better for recruitment purpose to streamline the rules that prevent people from using certain armor.

Limiting grappling to people that choose to wear plate armor would be a better choice, in my opinion. This would solve the safety issue and allow people to build historically accurate kits. The only real issue created by this would that even if you are in a full grapple someone could get pinched by the articulation. I would take a pinch any day over a shot to the face.


Making specific rules for people in plate is a better way to go. Having rules for safety would work to make this feasible. A few basic rules could cover most of the major problems with safety. Not allowing people in plate to grapple or be grappled. Not allow shield bashing. Using these rules along with the penny rounding rule and there should be no significant injuries created by allowing them.


I would rather see the bar grill of an SCA helm then a hockey or lacrosse helmet. I see no problem with people that like to wear these for safety sakes but they look worse then SCA helms, protect less, and they certainly do not hold any historical accuracy.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:30 pm 
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Physic wrote:
Not allowing people in plate to grapple or be grappled. Not allow shield bashing. Using these rules along with the penny rounding rule and there should be no significant injuries created by allowing them.


And by using those rules no one would want to wear plate. If we place limitations on plate armor then there must be some kind of advantages like being immune to one hand stabs and/or 2 extra hits.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:33 pm 
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I would.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:13 pm 
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Physic wrote:
Making specific rules for people in plate is a better way to go. Having rules for safety would work to make this feasible. A few basic rules could cover most of the major problems with safety. Not allowing people in plate to grapple or be grappled.


I vehemently disagree with this. Makng special rules for special types of armor would get confusing, and likely be forgotten in the heat of the moment.

Physic wrote:
I would rather see the bar grill of an SCA helm then a hockey or lacrosse helmet. I see no problem with people that like to wear these for safety sakes but they look worse then SCA helms, protect less, and they certainly do not hold any historical accuracy.


I entirely agree with this.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:14 am 
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I agree with Olos and Oisin. Safety is going to be an issue regardless of armor type; extra rules would only complicate the situation. Therefore, cops need to be leather to guarantee at least some enhanced measure of safety.

Full-metal helms, I think, are safer than cops. But given that grappling is always a possibility, nothing is going to be 100% safe. Play-testing and keeping track of any rise in injuries or damaged equipment might be the way to go on this one.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:39 am 
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AFAIK, full metal helms aren't a safety issue.

Part of the issue is that that bar grill helms would make you completely proof against projectile weapons to the head with non-period armor that wouldn't stop the first arrow, let along the fiftieth, and also without restricting your vision like a real full helm from the period would have. As I said, I have no problem with period-style full metal helms. So, if you want to try and get SCAdian helms passed, you'd better included in there that the grill is safety equipment, not armor, and arrows hitting it are assume to have penetrated.

But overall, allowing SCAdian armor is just a really bad idea . . . the cops for the safety reasons I pointed out and the playability ones that Olos pointed out, and the helmets just become a playability nightmare as well.

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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:01 pm 
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Oisin wrote:
AFAIK, full metal helms aren't a safety issue.
But overall, allowing SCAdian armor is just a really bad idea . . . the cops for the safety reasons I pointed out and the playability ones that Olos pointed out, and the helmets just become a playability nightmare as well.


Ain't gonna argue the cops but as far as the helmet goes I consider bar grills more of a safety issue than anything else due to finger entrapment, however unlikely - which is an issue that we consider for all armour regardless of whether it's SCAdian or not.

However, this is easily alleviated by a bit of leather in armour grade woven over an SCA helm to protect opponents from such, or a removable grille.

Just food for thought...

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 Post subject: Re: Full Helms and metal knee/elbow cops
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:13 pm 
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Jointed metal elbows and kneew WILL cut people fingers when they graple. To sugest that we only allow people who wear plate to grapple is one of the stupidest things I've heard this summer.
\The reason the Helms aren't allowed is the danger of the un-intentional head but(don't tell me you've never seen people hit heads during a bridge battle, and the grills. The grills are UGLY, not at all period, dangerous in there own way, and do not conform to out gap requirements to count as armor.
Never gonna happen.
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 Post subject: Re: Full Helms and metal knee/elbow cops
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:49 pm 
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I was once told that full metal helms were also very hard to remove if in an emergency situation or if the person is hurt. (swelling and such)

Does that make any sense?

I have seen people use plain safety equipment- then cover in leather. They wear them for the safety- but try to make them look as period as possible. Some people have had some good ideas.

I'd rather NOT add, or make special rules- I think it just makes it more complicated.


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 Post subject: Re: Full Helms and metal knee/elbow cops
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:19 pm 
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I think looking totally awesome is enough of an advantage to offset any penalties/restrictions that might be placed on plate armor.

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 Post subject: Re: Full Helms and metal knee/elbow cops
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:11 am 
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Forkbeard wrote:
Jointed metal elbows and kneew WILL cut people fingers when they graple. To sugest that we only allow people who wear plate to grapple is one of the stupidest things I've heard this summer.
\The reason the Helms aren't allowed is the danger of the un-intentional head but(don't tell me you've never seen people hit heads during a bridge battle, and the grills. The grills are UGLY, not at all period, dangerous in there own way, and do not conform to out gap requirements to count as armor.
Never gonna happen.
FB


As the rules stand right now people that wear plate armor cannot initiate a grapple. If someone chooses to initiate a grapple against an opponent wearing plate they should take responsibility of what injuries may occur. Any good articulation will not allow a finger to fully enter in between the plates. What gaps there are will only cause very minor pinching and most of this will be to the person inside the armor. No where has anyone said anything about only allowing people in plate to grapple.

Metal helms are allowed they are just not able to have full face coverage. So in the instance of a head butt you can still hit you head against a steel helm. In that case you just have one concussion instead of two. I truly beleive if more people wore full metal helms that we would see a dramatic decrease in head injuries. Just in my small realm alone we have had a cuncussion, dislocated jaw, broken nose, bruised eyeball, and countless bloody noses and bruised faces. These were all within a years time. In my two years of SCA I havent seen a single head injury. We are already allowing sports helms on the field which look like crap. Period full helms would increase safety and make the game look a whole hell of a lot better.

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 Post subject: Re: Full Helms and metal knee/elbow cops
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:14 am 
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my helmet is not period at all, it is built with belegarth in mind. i maximized coverage with out losing any visibility. i can take a red to the head and face with minimal discomfort if any at all. i see no difference from my helm to these full metal helms that offer good visibility, other than that mine is leather and theirs is metal. both would be useless in a real combat situation. i would be stabbed in the eye and die fast. but we are not doing a combat recreation, we are doing belegarth, and realism is under saftey.

as for metal cops, we have armor checkers for a reason, if it is a hazard they should fail it, right? most metal armor i have seen is good quality and would not catch limbs/fingers and such. the gaps are very small, but if poorly constructed they could, that is why we check armor before it gets on the field. there is little difference between kneeing someing with or with out a metal cop, bone is hard, so it metal. the deadliest strikes in the world are knees from a tia kick boxer, he doesn't where metal knees either. so really it is about people being safe more than anyhting they wear.

i would like to see 2 rules, 1 plate wearer cannot initiate a grapple ever, but can be grappled. 2 metal plate wearer cannot shield bash ever, shield check and shield contact are allowed.

i don't want to see a 250 lbs full plate wearer(probibly 300 with armor on) sheild bash a 150 lbs fighter, just a bad idea. remember a shield bash is more than a 3 step run up to contact. a check is 2 steps or less, much less energy.

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 Post subject: Re: Full Helms and metal knee/elbow cops
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:33 am 
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At Rag 13, I accidentally headbutted a fighter named Malcovian. At the time I probably weighed a whopping 140 pounds, but it leveled him. His skull was exposed, he received a minor concussion, and he had to get 4 stitches in the middle of his forehead. If I would have been wearing a full metal helm, it wouldn't have been surprising if I had killed him.
Do I want to worry about this kind of stuff every time I go onto the field? No thanks.

Rigid metal helms, knees and elbows work great in the SCA and EMP because Everybody is wearing them. Also, "Heavy" fighting tends to be slower than "boffer" fighting (meaning you don't see very many SCA fighters at a full run for most of the battle).

Also, if you want another example of unsafe armor, I think it was like 6 years ago that a fighter at Estrella died because he fell on his own poorly padded gorget.

If we're looking for a way to simplify the rules for plate, the easiest thing we can do is to just make all rigid metal armor illegal. :P And if that means that people can't use their SCA armor kits to fight in Belegarth, that doesn't bother me... because you don't need armor to fight in Belegarth! =D


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 Post subject: Re: Full Helms and metal knee/elbow cops
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:19 pm 
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As an aside, I wear leather to fight SCA. Except for the helm, all leather.
Same kit as I wear in Bel. So there. :fingers:

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 Post subject: Re: Full Helms and metal knee/elbow cops
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:39 pm 
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Our Combat is too fast paced for the metal cops...I planted my face solidly on a guys elbow on chaos, I broke a tooth off in his elbow, had he been in metal elbows, I would have crushed my entire upper jaw and cheek bones. In the SCA your head and body are protected from those cops and other helm, here we are not. I Bel I have been fallen on and over, where had there been metal elbow/knees, I would have had broken ribs and arms. The safety issue is not grappling, etc, but standard play dangers. That is why metal knees/elbows are not allowed.

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 Post subject: Re: Full Helms and metal knee/elbow cops
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:27 pm 
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In SCA fighting everyone is also wearing gloves, not to mention the fact that grapling is expressly illeagle.
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 Post subject: Re: Full Helms and metal knee/elbow cops
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:30 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Full Helms and metal knee/elbow cops
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:25 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Full Helms and metal knee/elbow cops
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:10 pm 
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Forkbeard,

I think your reasoning for a full metal helm being illegal is wrong. You are using an argument that has never been proven to come to a means to explain the rules. The rule stems back from our origins in Dagorhir, in fact even farther back than that from what I understand. I once posed this question to a group of Aratari about 9 years ago. I think it was a Get-to-guy who said that the full helm rule actually came about from Aratar himself in the very beginning, what occurred was some people from the SCA showed up to a battle wearing all their SCA gear. And the difference in ethos between the young Dagorhir group and the much harder less role playing group of sca'dians forced Aratar to draw a line to keep the peace. The result was if they want to get rid of the SCA ethos they had to get rid of the SCA fighters. To do that they maid full helmets illegal.

Bottom line, No ridgid metal on the elbo's and knee's and no full helmets do not pose a major threat to our field. They do however discourage crossover between Belegarth and the SCA. Unfortunately people who have problems with metal elbo's and helms have never fought against one and someone a long time ago put a mental picture of arteries gushing blood and some lunatic head butting everyone.

Physic, I agree with you metal restrictions on the head, knees, and elbo's is not justified.

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 Post subject: Re: Full Helms and metal knee/elbow cops
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:16 pm 
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I fight with everyone, hard.
I stand by my statement that graple + metal elbows and knees and helms will cause injuries.
SCA does not allow grapling for a reason.
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 Post subject: Re: Full Helms and metal knee/elbow cops
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:49 pm 
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I think that we need to keep the rules on the elbows and knee cops the same as they are for safety reasons. However the full metal helm rule could be at least relaxed in it's form. We already have people running about in helms for their safety, and a well made (yes i know we would have to rely on weapons checkers for this) helm would be no more dangerous, and could possibly be even safer than the current lacrosse helmets being worn for those reasons.

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 Post subject: Re: Full Helms and metal knee/elbow cops
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:42 pm 
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SirMADOG wrote:
Unfortunately people who have problems with metal elbo's and helms have never fought against one and someone a long time ago put a mental picture of arteries gushing blood and some lunatic head butting everyone.
-Madog


Well, speak for yourself, but I have fought as a heavy fighter in the SCA, and I know what it is like. No there aren't a bunch of elbowing head-butting a-holes out there in the SCA, but I still hold that metal knees and elbows are unsafe in our game.

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 Post subject: Re: Full Helms and metal knee/elbow cops
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:31 pm 
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Physic wrote:
.
Just in my small realm alone we have had a cuncussion, dislocated jaw, broken nose, bruised eyeball, and countless bloody noses and bruised faces. These were all within a years time.


Hmmmmm.... I am starting to think yall are doing something VERY wrong.
Anyone else see something weird in this remark?

Sounds like a lot of head shots or some very rough grappling.

I once heard a saying : "... if it hurts, you must be doing it wrong..."
Seen & had my share of injuries- BUT not to that degree or that many in almost 15 years...


Last edited by Satanaka on Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Full Helms and metal knee/elbow cops
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:52 am 
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I guess everyone is doing something wrong because these are all pretty common injuries that I see at every event and practice that I attend. We can all agree that if you have 2 people fighting that at some point someone is going to get hit in the head. It is the nature of the game.

None of these were caused by grappling because grappling sucks. Battlefield grappling is always a strategically bad idea. It only comes into play with people that are looking to just grapple or as a last resort. That is why we do not see it very often.

It hurts every time I get hit in the head. Does that mean we should all be wearing helms?

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 Post subject: Re: Full Helms and metal knee/elbow cops
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:59 am 
Barbarian
Barbarian
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Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2003 6:56 pm
Posts: 388
Location: Peoria,IL
Forkbeard wrote:
I fight with everyone, hard.
I stand by my statement that graple + metal elbows and knees and helms will cause injuries.
SCA does not allow grapling for a reason.
FB


Have you every tried it? I have done it for 4 days straight and didnt see a single problem and I wear * near minimum armor.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=l3arpzqy81k

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"Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark."


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 Post subject: Re: Full Helms and metal knee/elbow cops
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:19 pm 
Ninja
Ninja
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Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2003 3:13 pm
Posts: 1638
Location: NashVegas
Started Fighting: 12 May 1992
Realm: Dur Demarion
Unit: Templar Draconis Kestevara
Favorite Fighting Styles: Right side of the Sword
Dude- I'm just saying that yall have a lot of BAD injuries. I have seen less injuries at a major event.
It don't hurt EVERY time I get hit in the head- but often enough. I have gone weeks- 3-5 practices without getting hit in the face. I've also been fighting one on one with a veteran friend and get hit 3 out of 5 times- nothing ever major.

I just hate to see people get hurt.

Since in Peoria- do you get down to Wolfpack to fight? If so- how is their fighting different from yalls (as in injuries and such)???

Physic wrote:
I guess everyone is doing something wrong because these are all pretty common injuries that I see at every event and practice that I attend. We can all agree that if you have 2 people fighting that at some point someone is going to get hit in the head. It is the nature of the game.

None of these were caused by grappling because grappling sucks. Battlefield grappling is always a strategically bad idea. It only comes into play with people that are looking to just grapple or as a last resort. That is why we do not see it very often.

It hurts every time I get hit in the head. Does that mean we should all be wearing helms?


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