Magic Leg-Switch (aka duck walk)

[Mekoot Rowan]

Ok, I started talking about this in the leg rule discussion, but people refused to threadjack, which is probably good.

Every time I go out on a field I see someone taking the wrong leg, or swtiching legs in the middle of combat.

Worse yet, people and drag one leg along the ground and then switch legs to drag the other. I've done it myself, and you can cover alot of ground very quickly in this manner, far faster than running on your knees because of the longer stride.

It seems to be a creative inturpretation that falls through the cracks of the rules. Marshals and everyone else on the field lets it slide.

Stopping this practice doesn't even mean changing a single rule, just enforcing what's already there.

[Cyric]

this kinda falls under the same category of the magic switch. no one drops a weapon, then their shield to pick up the weapon with their good hand. i think game wise it's no big deal.

I would like to see more realistic movement on the ground, but i don't think it's that big a deal either.

[Big King Jimmy]

I always tell new users to drop what ever knee feels most comfortable, and switch if they feel the need.

We're a sport with guys who are getting knee surgery in their mid 20's.

[Elebrim]

If you get hit in the left leg, the left leg should take the damage. If you get hit in the right arm, the right arm should take the damage. The magic-weapon-switch only moves the sword/shield, and doesn't actually switch where the damage is taken. The magic-leg-switch, however, does. It's the same thing as getting hit in the right arm, but taking the left since it is more convenient for you as a righty to have that arm available.

Accommodation can and should be made if it is a safety issue like Jimmy mentions, but in general the leg switch is not good. Neither is the arm switch, for that matter. Both should be enforced, but if it were a matter of priority I would probably enforce the leg over the arms.

[Big King Jimmy]

No one switches which arm takes the damage, as you said people are left or right handed. But with one leg vs the other you really don't gain an advantage. No one is "right legged" and the stance for each is pretty much the same.

[Kenneth]

But with one leg vs the other you really don't gain an advantage. No one is "right legged" and the stance for each is pretty much the same.

I beg to differ. It may not make so much of a difference if your shield is huge and covers your entire body, but which leg is up makes a very large difference when you are trying to protect yourself and attack the other person. Left leg up means your left leg is closer to guy who is typically swinging with his right hand.

Numenor enforces the rules requiring your injured leg to be disabled when hit(3.4.1.1), and for your non-injured leg to be up. (3.4.2.3)

[Physic]

I would like to see either a rule that makes legs untargetable after one has taken damage and you would be unable to move other then to rotate in place. This would increase knee safety and make for a serious disadvantage to a legged fighter, which it should be.

The HACS system would also be something that would improve the game mechanics. It would make explaining rules easier and again improve safety.

[Aegis]

im all for seeing this enforced.

whats the likelyhood that enough marshalls at the major events will have the balls to tell all the veterans that duckwalk, hey stop that?

[Satanaka]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news- YOU WILL LOSE THIS DEBATE.

There- now why??? This is something that has been braught up MANY times in the past. From the 90' that I know. My first memories was the people that can run on their knees faster than I can run normally. You'd leg someone- walk 100 yards- and they run up & hit ya in the back. CHEATERS!!! well- of course the 'power's that be' deemed it: "if they can do it: then they can do it.... example: Shindar You can NOT get a rule to pass with out certain people's "OK"

I only know a good handful that actually PLAY the leg damage in the right way.

Numenor is no different- many RUN on their knees as well.

I remember being taught when I was new- to drag the injured leg- you do your best NOT to use it at all. People that have the limbs stabbed- should have NO MOBILITY.
"but satanaka- how can I win if i get legged???

Waht you get is sorta what Cyric said: " ...but i don't think it's that big a deal either..."
I am not busting Cyric's chops- THIS is the typical response you get from the majority of people & Heralds. Heck- I had some newbie yelling at me at an Octoberfest where I was Heralding cause I told him he could not run on his knees.

Maybe I am to hard as a Herald? NAH!

[Mercer]

Running on your knees is bullcrap. You're supposed to be representing an injury that has denied you the use of a limb. Knee-running is analgous to switching which arm got taken to favor your primary hand: you're switching the damage back and forth to grant yourself a meta-game advantage. If you can drag the leg fast enough, then fine... but the damaged limb HAS to stay down.

It's actually in the rules.
3.4.2.3. Disabled Leg - kneel on ground with the non-injured Leg up.
By that rule, you CANNOT switch... because you're bringing the disabled leg's knee off the ground, and there's no rule allowing for switching. Knee-running is straight-out cheating; you can poo-poo me, and keep maintaining a convention that is straigh against the rules, but that doesn't stop it for being cheating.

To quote a favorite argument of others, if you want it changed to be legal, talk to your WC reps.

[Arrakis]

The "taking a knee" thing has always bothered me, both for not being played the way the rule is written and for being totally inconsistent with reality. If I take a wound to the leg that would entice me to go down to the ground on my knee, I'm one dead dude.

*shrug* It's all for playability anyway, right? I don't even know what to think anymore.

[Forkbeard]

Running on your knee's is cheating. So is selecting where(which leg) you take your damage. Your hit where your hit. If you have some problem with your knee, you shouldn't be fighting.
FB

[Mercer]

Arrakis-

If we went toward the realism side, the end result of a leg wound that severe would be that we writhe around on the ground for a few minutes, while our lifeblood either drains out of our bodies (in the case of a hack/slash) or bloats the surrounding flesh in a mass of internal bleeding brought on by bone shards lacerating major arteries and veins (in the case of blunt weapon damage).

As that would be rather less than fun, losing the use of the leg is a nice stop-gap measure.

[Satanaka]

Hmmmm... seems the knee is one of the prime target of foam fighting (right behind knuckles). Shesh- if everyone quit that had a knee issue in Belegarth- it would be a large number. ACL's seem to be a common injury. There are some good knee braces but they are bulky, hot, and $$$$$.
I'd not tell people they should not be fighting- I'd think they had sense enough to know their limits.
Hmmmmmm.... No- I take that back- I did not know or just refused to listen UNTILL injuries got VERY bad. So I am in that "stupid" lot.
Sorry

Running on your knee's is cheating. So is selecting where(which leg) you take your damage. Your hit where your hit. If you have some problem with your knee, you shouldn't be fighting.
FB

[Ralimar]

This was from three months ago! Let it die!!

[Satanaka]

HEY!!! Ralimar- some of us are slow readers!!!!

I only get to visit here in burst. Change the channel.

This was from three months ago! Let it die!!

[Ralimar]

I've been trying, but recently all I've been getting is ALL SAKI ALL THE TIME, and occasionally the SAKI ON SAKI channel, which comes in kind of fuzzy.

[Mercer]

And kinda disturbing, which makes me happy for the fuzziness.

As for the age of the thread... apologies for aiding and abetting Saki, but it IS an important issue to address. Either marshalls/heralds need to start enforcing the limits of the rules, or there needs to be a modification of the rules to allow the behavior.

[Aegis]

the more I think about it, the more im ok with them duckwalking....

cause I can res or get up and fight next battle, they are gonna have knee problems for life.

[debuenzo]

call them dead*

3.4.2. All Injury effects must be accurately portrayed and reported.
3.4.2.1. Death - Lay down immediately. Do not move unless instructed by a Marshal.
3.4.2.2. Disabled Arm - A disabled Arm may not hold anything. If the Arm is disabled by a Class 1 or 2 Weapon then place Arm behind back. If the Arm is disabled by a Class 3 or 4 Weapon, leave Arm dangling limply at side.
3.4.2.3. Disabled Leg - kneel on ground with the non-injured Leg up.

if they have two knees on ground they are taking the damage to two legs = dead

[Big King Jimmy]

Now wait, I fighting with both knees down all the time, if that simply resulted in death, we wouldn't have a rule that states that if both knees are down damage to either leg kills you.

[Satanaka]

ok Rali-
Maybe I want to have 5,000 post like all the cool kids....


but - I do only get on here once in a while. I have been away for a long while and just started reading more post in other areas- that were actually interesting to a point.

Most the people I know- look at much of this garabage and just laugh and walk past- BUT then - two months later- we hear how the 'garbage' is the new rule or the new ________ Officer. So- it's like- ok- rules are changing and WHY???? So- I started reading more.

Make sense???? Yeah, yeah, yeah- I don't talk "pc" I have yet to take Kegg's 'PC' Talking 101 maybe someday. Heck- might keep me out of trouble.

I've been trying, but recently all I've been getting is ALL SAKI ALL THE TIME, and occasionally the SAKI ON SAKI channel, which comes in kind of fuzzy.

[Satanaka]

No Jimmy- how many rules do we need to to add to make it 'crystal' clear?

3.4.2. All Injury effects must be accurately portrayed and reported.
3.4.2.3. Disabled Leg - kneel on ground with the non-injured Leg up.

If you put both knees down when you only have one hit- You are cheating. It's just that simple. I don't mean any insult to you- but how plain do you want it? So as a Herald- do you call someone 'dead' when they cheat?

*** I remember when I moved to Numenor and called people dead- then ego's blew up and Kegg and I spoke and I was informed (best Kegg voice on) : " ...Well, you see, it's sorta like, when both legs are down and.... well, then either leg you hit has to be taken... and so, well because both legs were down. So- we don't say anything about both legs down..." Of course- lasting MUCH longer than that.

NOW- what that did was to make the fighters "think" it must be 'ok' to do as well as was breaking the rules. I do not know where you got it from Jimmy- that is just the first place I ever saw it.

The actual act is still cheating. NO MATTER that if you get hit in either leg. The other thing about it- is the "other" leg is almost taken out as a valid target. So- BY CHEATING- you are taking a target away from your opponent. Fenris (long ago Fenris from Dur- Demarion) would stab the other leg- so he COULD remove it as a target. He would have NO mobility and played it that way.

Now wait, I fighting with both knees down all the time, if that simply resulted in death, we wouldn't have a rule that states that if both knees are down damage to either leg kills you.

[Big King Jimmy]

So which is more likely, that War Council passed a rule that described what to do if a person was cheating:

3.7.6. If an opponent has both knees on the ground, a strike to either Leg is considered to have struck the good Leg. If the opponent is lunging or rolling around and has a disabled Leg and is hit in either, it is considered a hit to the uninjured Leg.

Or that, and Satanaka you might want to sit down for this it might be a shock.

Our game changes. It evolves. 10 years ago we weren't even playing the same game (Dag) and now things get done a little differently than when you first made that chat with Kegg. That examples of how things were done many moons ago might not apply to now, because that's not how we do things now. And that "I'm old, I remember how it's supposed to be" isn't a valid argument, because that's not the way it is now.

We have a rule that describes what to od if both knees are down, you count either leg as a hit.

[MagnusofDregoth]

Jimmy's right, that's how everyone does it, and it's in the rules.. And I don't feel that it removes a target area--many times I have killed opponents by hitting their front leg, originally their dead leg, but a legal target once they put both legs down. In these situations, I would not have been able to hit the back (live) leg, and of course hitting the front leg wouldn't have done anything.

The knee-switching run that started this thread is definitely cheating and shouldn't be allowed; marshals should call fighters dead when they do it. But with both legs down, I can run on my knees (both knees on the ground) quite fast; I have even outrun people who were running full-speed away from me (they were not in good physical shape). But the trade-off is that I thereby open both legs to attack.

As far as the magic switch goes: in Dagorhir, the game I play most of the time, it is illegal, and people who do it in a tournament automatically forfeit because they have cheated. On the field, the heralds usually just yell at people but don't call them dead, although many fighters will take a death if/when they realize they have done it. I appreciate that Belegarth is a different game; I just wanted to mention this.

[Satanaka]

So- are you guys still running on your knees in Dag???

on another issue- same topic:
I do see a little differnce between "having to act out the injury" and "...if you have both knees on the ground- then either counts..."
So- did we say- that you must show the injury- as in dead leg down- then people put BOTH (Hmmm.. must be an advantage) then IF both are down- then either count????

So- does ANYONE else see any issue here?

that's how everyone does it, and it's in the rules..

Hmmmmmm sounds sorat like an absolute.... maybe?????

[MagnusofDregoth]

In Dagorhir, people go down to both knees for the extra mobility, but I don't see people doing the duck-walk that has been described above.

I do run on my knees. But to be fair, I can run on my knees only about half as fast as I can run on my feet.

[Soo Ma Tai]

Put down your walkers, no fighting amongst the fighters.....

Here's the deal, this is for Saki as well as everyone else who has been in on this....

It is perfectly legal to have both of my knees on the ground in several circumstances.
1. One leg is hacked, the other is pierced. Both knees are on the ground but I am not dead.
2. One leg is hacked and the other is not so that leg is up. I take a shield push, fall over and both knees are on the ground, did I just die from falling over, I think not. Am I cheating for not having died, no.
3. One leg is hacked the other is not, same as above i am shoved over, now neither leg is on the ground, am I cheating, no.

This does not make it ok to sit with both knees on the ground if only one leg is injured. It only settles the arguement when one of the above circumstances happens.

Duck walking is cheating. Switching any hit location to somewhere else is cheating. Not properly portraying your injuries is cheating. Jimmy is right, the game has changed a bit from the early 90's. Back then if I hit the same leg twice before you went down, you were dead. That rule was changed to reflect how people were fighting. These rules have not changed however.

If you would like them changed to relfect your want to switch injuries and duckwalk, talk to your WC rep, I am sure they will take it to WC right away.

[Angmarth]

This is why we play any two limb wounds (including pierces) is death in Arnor. It is far, far simpler.

[Satanaka]

Guys & Gals,

I hope that ALL of you are here- discussing, debating, talking about issues.
This is a great place to do it. I have enjoyed as well as got some different view, perspectives and thoughts from other people post.
I have learned as well as got to input my thoughts & opinion (and reflect "How it use to Be') sorry for the last one.

This is constructive and a good thing to see, hear and take in other people views, ideas and opinions.

We are stronger and smarter as a collective. "You WILL be assimilated!!" - sorry- could not resist.


I'd hope NO ONE has got angry or took anything personal. I haven't taken any offense to people that disagree or see things differently.

As I have practice in the past- I try to do my best to serve Belegarth. If a rule is voted in I don't like or agree with- I am still going to follow it untill it is changed or trashed.

Are we all on the same page?

[Raccoon]

there have been a lot of rules mentioned in this thread but I didn't see this one
3.7.7. A Combatant who has their Leg disabled must either crawl on his/her knees or be realistically supported.
This is why people can crawl or [depending on you definition of crawl (can mean to just move slower on the ground)] allow you to run on your knees.
What about rolling around? Is that illegal?

[Davit]

To my interpretation of the rules, yes that is legal, as long as the leg disabled is only used as a knee.