Flail hafting is Legal?

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Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Aegis » Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:10 am

I have 2 serious complaints about fails.

Consistently people haft you while they hit you with the ball and expect you to take it.

Consistently people hit you with the ball and there is NO force on the ball, it just wimps over your shield into you.

both of these currently have fail users crying that you should take it, but I think the answer to both should be, hell no.

Both of these seem to be incredibly common as well.
Last edited by Aegis on Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How do we stop flail hafting, and light flail taps?

Postby Big King Jimmy » Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:12 am

I haven't seen any problem with this. Maybe it's just in your area?
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Re: How do we stop flail hafting, and light flail taps?

Postby Derian » Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:51 am

Yeah. I fight almost exclusively with a flail and really don't ever have a problem with people taking my hits.
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Re: How do we stop flail hafting, and light flail taps?

Postby Arrakis » Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:49 pm

I don't see why a haft-and-ball shot should count any less than a haft-and-barrel shot from a mace or club.

Also, the problem of light flail heads is a problem of construction. I'd been attacked with flails that I couldn't feel the hits from and, until a nearby herald called me dead, I had no idea I had been hit with. I have made flails, however, with 6 oz heads that... well, if you can't feel them, you can't feel Red shots, either.

That said, if a flail user thinks they're hitting you and you don't, tell them that you can't feel the hit. But only if you literally completely can't tell that you've been contacted. If you can, why not just call light if it's light??
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Re: How do we stop flail hafting, and light flail taps?

Postby Aegis » Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:35 pm

If I feel a light hit at an EVENT, I just die, and call out to them, please hit harder next time, flail or sword. At a PRACTICE, I call light and continue the fight.

Ball and Haft is an illegal shot that doesnt count.
Macehead striking surfact and haft at same time is an illegal shot that doesnt count.
Bouncing a weapon off someones head into their shoulder is an illegal shot and neither count.


my concern is those super light flail heads you cant feel, cause people get hard feelings when you dont take them, even tho you cant feel them. Last EQ or maybe Beltaine I forgot, I got some complaints thru someone else about me not taking all my flail shots, I just honestly didnt feel myself hit, or in at least 2 instances, I KNOW I was cracked by the haft. My buddy dave who was brand new got whacked by a haft in the arm, Dave didnt know hafting was illegal and nothing counts when youre hafted. so dave felt solid on his arm, took his arm. this same fighter who wont be named, came back by, calling his shot to daves back. I happened to be there as he yelled at dave that he hit his arm and the ball wrapped around to daves back so dave was dead. that fighter then ran off, I told dave to take back his arm, cause hafts dont count at all... you dont take illegal shots. This was an example of both, an illegal hafting, coupled with a super light fail head not being felt(possibly because of bring bruised by the haft, yes he had a solid bruise).

Had a few experiences at Rag, but thats Rag....

Maybe im just unlucky, Ill just do my best to be very vocal about when I dont take the flail shots, ..

HAFT, NOT TAKING ANYTHING.
or
Flail Head LIGHT.

I dont have these problems vs swords, just flails.
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Re: How do we stop flail hafting, and light flail taps?

Postby Arrakis » Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:51 pm

So, why, exactly, is a shot that hits you that also happens to cause a weapons' incidental padding to come into contact with you an illegal shot? That sounds exactly like those guys that say that a shot that bounces off their shoulder into their head doesn't count as death because at some point during the shot it hit their head.

The BoW says:
1.1.1. Striking Surface - Padded surface of a Weapon designed to make contact with an opponent during combat. Only the Striking Surface of a Weapon may score a hit.
1.1.2. Non-striking Surface – Any padded surface of the Weapon that is not a striking surface.
...
1.3.1. All striking surfaces of Weapons must be padded adequately to prevent personal injury when striking an opponent with full force on that surface.
1.3.2. All non-striking surfaces must be padded adequately to prevent personal injury from incidental contact.


So, basically, on a flail, the haft padding should be two or three layers of blue, enough not to hurt someone if you haft them, right? Other than that, I can't find any reference in the Book to hits which include haft padding and striking surface being illegal.

Would you care to cite a reference for us?



Oh, and, playability-wise... under your interpretation, can't you walk up to a flail-user, wait till he starts a shot, throw your arm out towards the haft, call "HAFT" when he hits your outstretched arm and the head slaps you in the bicep or shoulder, then spank him with your sword? Actually, come to think of it, you could grab the haft with ease, under the idea that any ball contact doesn't count, since his haft just hit you in the hand...


Addendum: Why don't we have a minimum flail head weight like Dag does?
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Re: How do we stop flail hafting, and light flail taps?

Postby varadin » Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:32 pm

teach control aegis. To many new guys are picking up flails because they see them as an easy kill or the "one weapon that stands out"

They arent learning to use your wrist to snap the head around and are just forcing the ball on either peoples shields or on peoples arm/leg/head. Its all about them just not being safe with the weapon because they haven't been taught right. Its no different then people who are new and side with a sword. teach them control slowly on a pell and they will get better.

As for people who are doing it on purpose. They are cheaters and should be kicked from the field
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Re: How do we stop flail hafting, and light flail taps?

Postby Davit » Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:55 pm

I'm going to agree with arrakis on this one (strange that usually doesn't happen), weapons are supposted to be padded for incidental contact for a reason AND there is no rule saying if the striking surface and the non-striking surface hit you that you don't have to take it. You don't cry if someone stabs you with a spear and then the strike slides past and the back of the head contacts you, so how is this any different. Also, yes control should be taught, and NO ONE should be trying to hit someone with the shaft of their mace/flail etc, but this does not give you the right to decide that you don't need to take the shot.
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Re: How do we stop flail hafting, and light flail taps?

Postby Aegis » Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:05 pm

incidental padding is NOT tested with sufficience for hitting.

If you think that its SAFE to fight like that, I can make an incedentally padded flail, and we can spar for a while, I can leave some wicked * bruises on you. seriously. Ill be happy to. Its an illegal shot.

Hitting someone in the head, is an illegal shot.
If you think its ok to bounce shots off someones head, ill be happy to ear/shoulder you over and over till you change your mind....

I like the safety this game offers over some others. and if we made incidental or head bounces legal it would make it very unsafe.

I would be 100% cool with flail hafts being required to be blue weapons in their own right and being tested as such and thus being safe, This is not the case, most of them are not at all safe to hit people with.

Ill go dig up the rule about illegal shots. I know ive seen it before.
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Re: How do we stop flail hafting, and light flail taps?

Postby Ralimar » Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:07 pm

Aegis, you're overreacting and you don't know the rules. Haft and ball still counts as a death. A shoulder shot that grazes your head is death. Partial block and sufficient force on the target area is death. Haft to the arm with flail head on torso is death. But if you REALLY want to, you have a very promising future ahead of you of being one of "those *."

Clear shot to the shoulder, bounces up and glances against your ear. "OH MY GOD, THAT WAS MY **** EAR!! (throw your equipment down) WHAT THE ****!!" You're obviously not dead. Because somebody totally was trying to hit you in the head because they're a cheater. Obviously.

Flail swings around the shield. The head is an obvious shot to your back, but the incidental padding on the haft touched your arm. "WHAT THE ****, WHAT THE ****! (throw your equipment down) WE DON'T FIGHT BY THE RULES ANYMORE, WE JUST **** HAFT PEOPLE!! CHECK THIS ****'S FLAIL, HE'S HITTING ME WITH SOLID PIPE ON PURPOSE!!

You deliver a blatant face shot, followed by a subsequent shot to the torso. "WHAT THE ****!! (throw your equipment down) IT OBVIOUSLY DOESN'T **** MATTER HOW MANY TIMES I HIT THIS GUY! HE FALLS DOWN AND THEN GET * OFF BECAUSE HE KNOWS HE'S CHEATING, BUT WHAT THE ****!!"


Please, don't be that guy. We have enough of them already. Basically, if you get hit by the incidental padding of a flail, you nearly always got hit by the ball, and it counts. Unless the aggressor's fist made contact with your body, the ball of the flail probably hit you.
And if you felt the haft and not the ball, it still probably hit you.
If you heard it and didn't feel it, it probably hit you.
If you don't take light hits at practice, you are a piece of ****. Your realm members are the only people who are going to stick up for you at an event, so you need to treat them with the utmost respect. And if you're thick at practice (as a general rule, no matter what you think) you're going to be even thicker at an event.

If people complain about you not taking their hits, you're probably thick.

If you complain on the internet about it being a rules problem, you're probably trying way too hard to justify your thickness.

If you are thick, that's fine. Get over it. Take everything from taps to dirty looks, and re-educate yourself. Rebuild your reputation over time. Just because You are a big guy doesn't meant that everyone needs to hit you like They're big guys.

It's a **** game. If you lose, you get to stand up and do it again in 5 minutes. Don't be a *. If you lose, nobody really cares. If you win, nobody really cares. So there's no point in cheating.

If somebody hits you light, die. Then, 4 minutes later, get up and tell them that they need to hit harder. If somebody hafts you with a flail, say "I think that was haft," and they'll probably tell you that you were right, and then kill you anyway. Who cares? Chill out, take more light hits, be comfortable with losing, and teach the same.
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Re: How do we stop flail hafting, and light flail taps?

Postby Aegis » Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:21 pm

you dont know me, so dont assume you do.

I dont throw my **** down on the field, I just leave the field, nothing gets accomplished by screaming at each other. Usually better discussed calmly after the fact... or get attacked by someone who feels personally assaulted and insulted by my questioning online....not my intention, and im not calling anyone out.

Im also a mobile fighter that moves around alot when fighting a good opponent, I cause people to hit my head all the time, I dont freak out, I just roll with it.

doesnt change that unsafe hafting is unsafe hafting.
If, and thats a big IF imo, hafting is Legal by the rules, then flails should absolutely be tested by hafting the tester to hit them, since weapons should be tested how they are used.

as I said, featherweight flails are the only thing I get "thick" with, and thats only when they are honestly so light all you feel is a touch....

we arent playing a touchlarp, and believe me, not all flail users are guilty of this, ive been CRANKED by flails, and with proper form, the whip of it stings, its the new players that dont know what they are doing or sometimes the people that pull off that reversal pretty shot that would have opened me up with a sword but the head doesnt come around correctly and the head just barely connects with no force.
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Re: How do we stop flail hafting, and light flail taps?

Postby Aegis » Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:26 pm

I do stand corrected tho, Belegarth does not specifically restrict hafting, Unsafe as it may be.

It also doesnt seem to declare what should be done about hitting illegal areas. so hafting and headshots both would fall under

1.1.3. A Marshal is responsible for safe conduct of battles, and therefore has the power to stop battles whenever a safety concern occurs.

unless someone saw something I missed.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Sir Anastasia » Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:59 pm

I think intentional striking of an opponent with a haft (of any weapon) should be an illegal shot. It is also very unsafe.

I think that people should take a shot that hits with both haft and striking surface. Why not? The striking surface hit you, doesn't seem like there is a problem here.

Haft padding on areas that you know are likely to hit an opponent in combat should be padded for full force as a safety measure. I pad all my flail hafts as clubs, though I don't use them as such.

Safety should be the first priority, but eliminating cheesiness should be the second.

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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Big King Jimmy » Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:59 pm

I pad my flail with 3 layers of blue foam for the top 3", 2 layers of blue for the top 8" and 1 layer of foam for..... some space, don't know how much. The point is, the problem with hafting someone and it being unsafe is that most people are retards and don't pad their haft adaquatly. I don't ever call my shots, and if someone doesn't "take a shot" then I didn't hit them, plain and simple. We don't need to change flails, we need to change peoples mentality. And stop passing flails with the single layer of haft padding, and then 2 layers on the top 2 inches.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Elebrim » Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:32 am

In my mind, hafting with a flail before landing a shot is using an illegal strike (non-striking surface strike) to gain advantage and land a legal strike (striking surface, i.e. flail ball). Not quite as bad as a head-torso combo or pommel-whipping someone, but it is bad. The haft stops being an "incidental" strike and becomes very much an intentional one - it's sloppy and unsafe flail use, which any creative interpretation of the rules should not encourage. Think BoW 1.4.

The difference between grappling the flail and getting hit vs. getting struck by the haft then the head also seems clear: if you attempt to grapple and are struck, you came in contact with the striking surface and it is your fault you got hit. But if the opponent hafts you during a strike, it is their fault and they shouldn't be rewarded for it. Not actively penalized, as we've all accidentally pulled shots and hafted someone by accident, but not rewarded by counting the ball strike.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Big King Jimmy » Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:42 am

So, if I body check a flail shaft I don't take the ball? check. That's a great system to put in place.

You swing a flail, everyone does remember this right? Although some people fish with them, I view my flail as a striking weapon, with a chain and ball attatched. trying to use some of the momentum from the flail to try to pull the shot to stop from hafting someone doesn't solve the light hit problem either. I drive my flail as hard as I can onto the top of your shield, and the flail hits you it's padded for it. You're fine, I'm fine, what's the big deal?

I think that by saying you don't have to take a PERFECTLY LEGAL SHOT if you were hafted before it, you're using creative interpretation of the rules to gain an advantage.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Elebrim » Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:53 am

"Body check?" Way to use a straw man, Jimmothy. Besides, that would be you blocking the flail shot, not them screwing up.

Big Jimmy wrote:I drive my flail as hard as I can onto the top of your shield, and the flail hits you it's padded for it. You're fine, I'm fine, what's the big deal?

(Emphasis mine.)

There's the difference. Into the shield, in which case the ball is what hits the shoulder and any haft contact is in fact incidental. Regardless of a shield, many fighters aim with the haft and not the ball, slamming someone with it and then expect the ball to count. That is clearly an illegal and dangerous shot being used to justify a legal shot.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Derian » Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:02 am

Some of you guys are looking at this the wrong way. If the striking surface hits you in a valid target zone with sufficient force, it is a hit. Game over.

That said, the vast majority of flail users do not intentionally haft people. If someone is, it's a marshal's responsibility to put an end to that behavior, just like if someone were constantly headshotting someone.

As a semi-related aside, 'featherweight' flails are not the problem either. People swinging with insufficient force is the problem. As an addendum to my earlier post, pretty much every weapon I own would be called 'ultralight' or whatever. I have a number of flails between 33" and 39"; none of them weigh more than 13 oz. Before the implementation of weight minimums a few years ago, most of my flails would average around 33" and 8 oz. Even then, at 160 lbs., I didn't have a problem with people taking my hits, usually even people who have a reputation for being thick.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Big King Jimmy » Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:03 am

It's not clearly dangerous or clearly illegal, if it was we'd outlaw clubs. Weapons checkers just pass flails with retardly little haft padding.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Big King Jimmy » Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:13 am

Elebrim wrote:"Body check?" Way to use a straw man, Jimmothy. Besides, that would be you blocking the flail shot, not them screwing up.

Big Jimmy wrote:I drive my flail as hard as I can onto the top of your shield, and the flail hits you it's padded for it. You're fine, I'm fine, what's the big deal?

(Emphasis mine.)

There's the difference. Into the shield, in which case the ball is what hits the shoulder and any haft contact is in fact incidental. Regardless of a shield, many fighters aim with the haft and not the ball, slamming someone with it and then expect the ball to count. That is clearly an illegal and dangerous shot being used to justify a legal shot.


sorry, fixed, my intention was:

Big Jimmy wrote:I drive my flail as hard as I can onto the top of your shield, and the flail haft hits your shoulder it's padded for it. You're fine, I'm fine, what's the big deal?
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Elebrim » Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:27 am

I got that, Jimmy. :)

I don't really buy that argument, though. We allow clubs or maces because fighters aim with the head of the weapon. Yeah, there is the fudge line when the low end of the mace head hits and a little haft also makes contact, but that is one point of contact: with a flail, the haft slam is separate from the ball. People who go around hafting other fighters, whether intentionally or not, are yelled at to stop before they injure someone and are booted from the field if they don't. Giving a weapon a hinged non-striking surface shouldn't change that, especially if the current standard is crappy haft-padding that leaves bruises.

Derian - You're probably right that it isn't a huge problem, but there is a fuzzy line between the action being intentional and being unintentional because it was just never questioned or commented on. It's probably better to work it out online than on the field when people are running hot and aren't thinking clearly.


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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Big King Jimmy » Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:31 am

I have never, in 7 years of IL fighting, seen a person reprimanded by a marshal for hafting with a flail. I've seen people * about it on the side lines, for sure, but never seen a marshal tell a person to stop doing it.

I think that a rule should be put it place that says that the top "X" inches of a flail haft must be padded adequately for striking, then we can stop having this discussion.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Angmarth » Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:18 am

In my 10 years of fighting I have seen many things, but I have yet to see anyone ever be injured by a flail haft. Hafts don't need to be any more padded than they are now.

Do people get hit with the haft and take the shot? Yes, but that is the nature of the weapon. The same thing happens with clubs, pole-arms and people hitting with the flat of a blade instead of the edge. Inadvertent striking is a bi-product of how our combat works. People have been taking hits that "shouldn't count" for years, and I'm guessing that isn't going to change anytime soon.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Bortas » Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:11 am

Two things:
1) If somebody clubs you with a real stick that has a chain at the end, is it going to do any less damage than without the chain/ball? A baseball bat upside the short ribs would suck. Point being: incidental padding or not, it would damage you, take the * hit. As others have said, there is almost no time when a hit with the haft would not also be a hit with the ball.
2) The incidental padding on a flail should be padded AND CHECKED as if people were going to crank each other with the haft, because they can AND WILL.... and usually not on purpose.

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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Big King Jimmy » Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:20 pm

Aegis, what are people using as haft padding in your neck of the woods?
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:38 pm

If there is sufficient haft padding there should be no problem with being hafted by a flail. The flails I have seen, both at Dur-D in the east in the earlyier days and all of them out west have 3 layers on the top portion to protect from incidental haftings which are very common with the flail. Whe I started in this game, I was told to hit with a flail, you want to try to hit the other guy in the shoulder with the haft, then the ball hits them in the back. That is just how they are used in this game and should be padded for such use. I have also been hafted with a flail at the handle end and * did that hurt, so please make sure your flails are sufficiently padded for incidental contact.

On a side not, if the flails head is too light, it will not produce good hits most of the time. We had a two handed flail ( a long time ago) that had to be swung soooo hard just to feel the head, swinging the thing was unsafe in itself. This could also be leading to injuries from hafting, if the heads of the flails are so light that extreemly hard shots are needed to make the ball hit hard enough to score. I can swing my flail at 1/2 power and score a hit that almost anyone would take, it's a straight up ethellen.

On another side note....if you hit me in the head, slide off and hit my shoulder all in one swing, sorry, no good. IF you hit me in the head, draw back and hit me in the shoulder, good shot, bad form. I take it and say, "man, watch those head shots, OK". Hit me in the shouder and slide up and hit the head, thats my arm, again, watch those head shots, though that was most likely my fault. This works the same way for a flail. If you are hit in a non-striking area (i.e. Head) and a legal striking area, say the back at the same time, the hit does not count. But if all contact is in a legal striking area, then the haft contact is incidental and does not count against you, you are going to have to take the hit. Same way as if I hit your leg with my red, but the haft makes contact with your arm, you still take the leg.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Aegis » Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:56 pm

Big Jimmy wrote:Aegis, what are people using as haft padding in your neck of the woods?


ive seen thin pipe foam insulation at beltaine and equinox, with a single blue layer over it at the very tip.

Ive been in Belegarth for 1 year now, and Ive seen 2 people deeply bruised by flail hafts.

and the main issue I see it is not the top of the shield crush fishing, thats incidental shield pushdown and removes alot of the force of the haft. I am referring to shots from the offside, that just get flat hafted into the arm or ribs.

I would be happy if all hafts were required same padding as any other blue weapon, therefore making it safe for full force.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:25 pm

I've seen pool noodle brakedown in the course of a days fighting, even with a single layer of blue, that weapon could pass early on and cause serious damage by the end of the day. And, Yes, all flail hafts should be padded for striking on the upper portion as that is the "intended" use.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Satanaka » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:28 pm

And if I bring my shotgun and pump 3 slugs from a 10 gauge pump into your melon- it's gonna suck... WTH???
two things:
1) it's a game- not real life mortal combat.
2) NO the "incidental padding" is NOT safe to use as a striking surface. Where do you invent this crap? It is NOT passed to strike with. That is why it is called "incidental" padding- for safety- in case you accidently hit someone- then there is SOME padding. With this type of mentality- then ALL "incidental" padding needs to be checked and passed as a striking surface. I can NOT believe ANYONE that has been fighting for any cumulative amount of time whould say something like this.

So- with some of the people here- I take my glaive that has "incidental" padding between the hand grips- and do a front snap "punch" and knock a tooth loose- and say- "dude- it's incidental padding- to bad for you..." ???
ALTHOUGH I know that flail trainning says to aim with the haft and the ball should hit- is NOT excuse to hit with an illegal surface.

If I hit someone with the haft- I call it and say DO NOT TAKE THAT CRAP- and I am sorry I hit you with the haft. If I get hit with some crap swing that is haft- I sure as heck don't expect to take it IF the fighter is worth anything. If it's a newbie- I might- BUT I will tell them what was wrong with the hit.

This is NOT rocket science....


Bortas wrote:Two things:
1) If somebody clubs you with a real stick that has a chain at the end, is it going to do any less damage than without the chain/ball? A baseball bat upside the short ribs would suck. Point being: incidental padding or not, it would damage you, take the * hit. As others have said, there is almost no time when a hit with the haft would not also be a hit with the ball.
2) The incidental padding on a flail should be padded AND CHECKED as if people were going to crank each other with the haft, because they can AND WILL.... and usually not on purpose.

-bort
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Arrakis » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:43 pm

Satanaka... quit waving your e-peen.

The "incidental padding" by which I mean "heavily padded non-striking surface" on the end of most flail sticks does not pass for striking. Do you know why? It's not because it's too thin; it's because we're NOT ALLOWED BY THE RULES to build a flail that has striking surface on both the stick and the head. Thus, striking with the haft is not an "illegal shot" but merely a no-damage shot, much like a shield punch or check. A non-striking surface (that is, as defined by the BoW, a surface that is not allowed to score a hit) may be designed and padded adequately for striking and may very well be intended to make solid contact with other combatants and still not be passed as a striking surface.

That's just the way our rules work.

Now, I personally don't know a weapons checker (or any Dur-D vet) that wouldn't check the hell out of the top 5 inches of a flail haft because, guess what? People who have been fighting for a long time understand how flails get used and check them accordingly.

Also, did you even read the rest of the thread? We've already established that your condemnatory use of the word "illegal" as regards striking with a non-striking (a poor choice of term, to be sure...) surface is patently incorrect; the BoW no where defines a strike with or that includes non-striking surfaces as illegal.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Satanaka » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:54 am

Arrakis said: "Satanaka... quit waving your e-peen."
words from a keyboard cowboy???

The "incidental padding" by which I mean "heavily padded non-striking surface" on the end of most flail sticks does not pass for striking. Do you know why? It's not because it's too thin; it's because we're NOT ALLOWED BY THE RULES to build a flail that has striking surface on both the stick and the head. Thus, striking with the haft is not an "illegal shot" but merely a no-damage shot, much like a shield punch or check. A non-striking surface (that is, as defined by the BoW, a surface that is not allowed to score a hit) may be designed and padded adequately for striking and may very well be intended to make solid contact with other combatants and still not be passed as a striking surface.

Uh- NO- not completely true. The actual 'incidental' padding on some weapons WAS due to safety. People were getting hurt- due to an area of un-padded area. (Swords, glaves, axes, mazes, hammers, etc.) That is why I used that example. So- Arrakis- when did we pad the flail haft and why????

That's just the way our rules work.
Again- Wrong- thanks for playing. It is the way the rules were designed.

Now, I personally don't know a weapons checker (or any Dur-D vet) that wouldn't check the * out of the top 5 inches of a flail haft because, guess what? People who have been fighting for a long time understand how flails get used and check them accordingly.

Wow- so why do you think they check it??? Because "...That's just the way our rules work..." NO- because it IS a safty issue. Why check pommels???? DUH- do you strike with a pommel??? NO! but we still ckeck them.

We've already established that your condemnatory use of the word "illegal" as regards striking with a non-striking (a poor choice of term, to be sure...) surface is patently incorrect; the BoW no where defines a strike with or that includes non-striking surfaces as illegal.

BINGO- you almost have it- So- "if the rule don't exist- then we can use the hit?!?!?!" (use the slogan from the Simson trail about the glove on this one). Arrakis- I don't remember seeing you at War Council when we spoke on many of these issue. Whether it's "Nonstriking surface" or "illegal striking surface" They have a few things in common- THEY ARE UNSAFE TO STRIKE WITH AND ARE NOT USED TO STRIKE WITH. You DO understand that???
Many of the 'incicental' padding ONLY had to be one layer. Flails got increased due to the HUGE increase of haft shots. As a matter of ACTAUL fact- we almost made it wher the 'haft' padding was as safe as any striking surface DUE to safety and to ensure the weapon was safe. "Incidental' padding on other weapons (one layer) often breaks down fast- one good block and it can dent it to the core.


Oh- one more thing- Arrakis- what is an 'e-peen'???????? :devil:
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Arrakis » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:28 am

So, you've basically just said, "People were getting hafted, so now we require courtesy padding so that people won't get hurt when they get hafted, but you totally shouldn't hit people with the courtesy padding because it'll hurt"? I don't follow.

Again- Wrong- thanks for playing. It is the way the rules were designed.

The rules were designed a certain way and now they work that way. I don't see your point here.

Wow- so why do you think they check it??? Because "...That's just the way our rules work..." NO- because it IS a safty issue. Why check pommels???? DUH- do you strike with a pommel??? NO! but we still ckeck them.

Yes. They check them because it's a safety issue. Because they understand that what passes for haft padding on the bottom third of a flail haft isn't what should pass for haft padding on the top third. No one checks pommels for anything other than general squishiness and 2" diameter precisely because there's so much less chance of being hit with one than a flail haft tip.

Also, if I build a flail with a 4-layer-of-blue-foam haft with a cloth cover, would you still tell me it's "UNSAFE TO STRIKE WITH AND ... NOT [to be] USED TO STRIKE WITH"?

Many of the 'incicental' padding ONLY had to be one layer. Flails got increased due to the HUGE increase of haft shots. As a matter of ACTAUL fact- we almost made it wher the 'haft' padding was as safe as any striking surface DUE to safety and to ensure the weapon was safe. "Incidental' padding on other weapons (one layer) often breaks down fast- one good block and it can dent it to the core.

Weapons with inadequate haft padding should be failing weapons check. If we've increased the amount of haft padding required by most competent checkers to the point that people aren't going to be getting hurt from haft shots, then why are we now arguing that a shot that includes haft should be treated as an illegal shot? By all means, don't take the haft shot as a hit, but if the ball hits you, please do; it's a striking surface and it hit you.



An e-peen is you hollerin' about your 10 ga. pump. Do you know how long it's been since any major firearms company cataloged a 10 ga. single shot, let alone a pump? As great as it was to hear you espouse deadly violence, I don't think that comment had any place in thiis discussion of foam fighting rules and conventions.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Big King Jimmy » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:59 am

Satanaka, the "I'm right because I'm old" argument is a load of crap. Angmarth may not have been fighting for as long as you, I'm honestly not sure, but you can't tell me he's not a vet, and he disagree with you.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Satanaka » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:17 pm

"Arrakis"said: "So, you've basically just said, "People were getting hafted, so now we require courtesy padding so that people won't get hurt when they get hafted, but you totally shouldn't hit people with the courtesy padding because it'll hurt"? I don't follow."

I am saying that people OFTEN hit people with the haft of the flail. More padding was added to ensure it was safe- BUT- we could not have 2 legal stiking areas- that both could hit and prodece two hits in one swing. The standard "kiss" theory. But- sorta- YES- the incidental padding was increased on flails due to the greater amount of time people 'hafted' with the weapon. So- we KNOW that we are NOT going to ban flails- so we just do the best we can. I have even heard great flail warriors say- "...aim with the haft and the ball will most likely hit..." Good in theory- BUT- often the haft does hit.

Arrakis: The rules were designed a certain way and now they work that way. I don't see your point here.
Arrakis- when you said "that's the way the rules work" I was pointing at the actual 'design' and the way that the rules were constructed and put together. NOT just the random "way they work"

Arrakis: Yes. They check them because it's a safety issue. Because they understand that what passes for haft padding on the bottom third of a flail haft isn't what should pass for haft padding on the top third. No one checks pommels for anything other than general squishiness and 2" diameter precisely because there's so much less chance of being hit with one than a flail haft tip.
Arrakis sorry- bubba slightly wrong. WHO are you getting your info from??? Pommels are also checked as a padding issue- due to the chance of someone getting hit with the pommel. Beside the 2" daimeter rule, and your "squishiness"???? (never heard of that rule), Often a pommel is also checked for core as well as the level of padding.

Arrakis: Weapons with inadequate haft padding should be failing weapons check. If we've increased the amount of haft padding required by most competent checkers to the point that people aren't going to be getting hurt from haft shots, then why are we now arguing that a shot that includes haft should be treated as an illegal shot? By all means, don't take the haft shot as a hit, but if the ball hits you, please do; it's a striking surface and it hit you.

Well- that sounds like your opinion. Good for you. BUT- some weapons are only one layer of haft padding. NOW- JUST with flails- MY OPINION- is that the 'punishemnt' or 'balancing action' for an illegal shot by the flail HAFT is to void the hit. This makes the flail person make better shots without hitting with a 'non-striking' surface. Do you get it? and YES- that is my opinion. Flails are a very powerful weapon and one that was 'over balance' many times in the past. They are more 'NON- realistic'- yet have more advantages in fighting. So- in short- they over balance or tip the scales of fighting. So- maybe it is just a way I see as "balancing" the bad part of this weapon.

Arrakis: An e-peen is you hollerin' about your 10 ga. pump. Do you know how long it's been since any major firearms company cataloged a 10 ga. single shot, let alone a pump? As great as it was to hear you espouse deadly violence, I don't think that comment had any place in thiis discussion of foam fighting rules and conventions.

Ah- ok- learn something new every day. :angel:
Wow- for a newbie- your fast to force your OPINION. Also- I was not "hollerin' ". Maybe you missed the point where Bortas said "...If somebody clubs you with a real stick that has a chain at the end, is it going to do any less damage than without the chain/ball? A baseball bat upside the short ribs would suck...."
SO- I took an age old fallacy and added the "12 guage" as an example to compare to the baseball bat to the ribs. :devil:
You'r an engineer student? right???
Have you held a real flail? would YOU be able to use one the way we use them in Belegarth? How far is the stretch from reality???
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Satanaka » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:24 pm

Big Jimmy wrote:Satanaka, the "I'm right because I'm old" argument is a load of crap. Angmarth may not have been fighting for as long as you, I'm honestly not sure, but you can't tell me he's not a vet, and he disagree with you.



Angmarth- Yes- less time than me.....

BUT saying that a flail should be used to hit with the haft " ....because they can AND WILL....." and me remarking about "I can NOT believe ANYONE that has been fighting for any cumulative amount of time whould say something like this."

I still feel this is true. I do not condone nor encourage people to use illegal shots, or to strike with illegal striking surfaces. (or "non-striking surfaces)

Now are you saying that Angmarth does, Jimmy? Or that you do?
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Re: How do we stop flail hafting, and light flail taps?

Postby Satanaka » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:28 pm

"Arrakis"I don't see why a haft-and-ball shot should count any less than a haft-and-barrel shot from a mace or club.

I'd look at them as the same way- a lot of it would be about how unsafe the hit was.

Also, the problem of light flail heads is a problem of construction. I'd been attacked with flails that I couldn't feel the hits from and, until a nearby herald called me dead, I had no idea I had been hit with. I have made flails, however, with 6 oz heads that... well, if you can't feel them, you can't feel Red shots, either.

I agree

That said, if a flail user thinks they're hitting you and you don't, tell them that you can't feel the hit. But only if you literally completely can't tell that you've been contacted. If you can, why not just call light if it's light??

For many years- the 'sword' people would not call light from the 'flail' people mostly due to the attitude of the 'flail' people. It seems like only over the last 6 years more people have been bolder about calling light. We still have the people that throw a fit due to the call- but- some people are gonna throw a fit anyway. It helps balance the flail out.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Big King Jimmy » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:59 pm

Satanaka wrote:
Big Jimmy wrote:Satanaka, the "I'm right because I'm old" argument is a load of crap. Angmarth may not have been fighting for as long as you, I'm honestly not sure, but you can't tell me he's not a vet, and he disagree with you.



Angmarth- Yes- less time than me.....

BUT saying that a flail should be used to hit with the haft " ....because they can AND WILL....." and me remarking about "I can NOT believe ANYONE that has been fighting for any cumulative amount of time whould say something like this."

I still feel this is true. I do not condone nor encourage people to use illegal shots, or to strike with illegal striking surfaces. (or "non-striking surfaces)

Now are you saying that Angmarth does, Jimmy? Or that you do?


What keeps coming to mind is a shot such as: fake a wrap to open up a sword and boarders sword side, then scoop that side low by the gut. If they fall for the fake late then I might assume they didn't bite and swing to try to move their shield, then when they do pull it late, I'm actually hitting their gut with the haft, ball at the back. I don't think they should get to ignore that hit because I hafted them. Also, I see tons of space for abuse. If a shieldman moves his shield so as to take a haft shot that would be a shield contact with a ball wrap, now he gets to ignore the ball... these are the kinds of problems I have, and I feel that simply requiring flail hafts be padded for striking, as my hafts always has been, is a better solution. Perhaps you've always felt that after a haft a shot from the ball should be able to be ignored, but I've never heard that, nor met anyone that plays that way. If that's the way the game was supposed to be then, I just don't think it's the way the game is played now, and our rules should reflect that.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:16 pm

If the haft touches me, the hit is no good. Sweet, I will never have to tak another flail shot again, Ill just block the haft with my arm and call haft, who care where your ball hits. Talk about a con o' worms to open.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Angmarth » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:59 pm

I don't recall saying anything about "condoning" using the use of non-striking surfaces, however... I really don't think it matters all that much if you get hit with them. The rules are made in such a way that as long as they are followed with regards to construction, there shouldn't be a problem. People are going to get hit with non-striking surfaces and blade flats. Those people are probably (more than 90% in my estimation) going to take that hit. Furthermore, probably 60%+ of heralds watching a fight would also call the hit good even tho you were clubbed like a baby seal with the non-striking surface. It is the nature of the way our weapons are built and how our combat works. For the same reason we say, "Shield contact to the head is discouraged", we also say "hitting with the haft or flat does not count as an injury". In either case, we refrain from saying something is FORBIDDEN. It just doesn't make any sense to put another "head shot" (something completely prohibited by the rules) into the combat system.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Arrakis » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:27 pm

Moral of the discussion:

No one should be maliciously attempting to haft people; no one should ignore a shot because it included some (or even a lot of) haft as long as it also included striking surface.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Satanaka » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:47 pm

I don't think they should get to ignore that hit because I hafted them. Also, I see tons of space for abuse.
OK- I see- I think I was seeing this as a blanten strike with the haft or like- the haft hits face- ball hits back. Then- I believe that there is room to error on the side of- BS swing. Does that make sense?

...I feel that simply requiring flail hafts be padded for striking, as my hafts always has been, is a better solution....
Agreed

Perhaps you've always felt that after a haft a shot from the ball should be able to be ignored...
No, I haven't. I was looking at it from a little different view.

Jimmy- thanks- IAAfter your post- I see more what you are talking about.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Satanaka » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:48 pm

So- you agree that we don't nned to "clarify" or add another rule on this issue?


Angmarth wrote:I don't recall saying anything about "condoning" using the use of non-striking surfaces, however... I really don't think it matters all that much if you get hit with them. The rules are made in such a way that as long as they are followed with regards to construction, there shouldn't be a problem. People are going to get hit with non-striking surfaces and blade flats. Those people are probably (more than 90% in my estimation) going to take that hit. Furthermore, probably 60%+ of heralds watching a fight would also call the hit good even tho you were clubbed like a baby seal with the non-striking surface. It is the nature of the way our weapons are built and how our combat works. For the same reason we say, "Shield contact to the head is discouraged", we also say "hitting with the haft or flat does not count as an injury". In either case, we refrain from saying something is FORBIDDEN. It just doesn't make any sense to put another "head shot" (something completely prohibited by the rules) into the combat system.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Satanaka » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:49 pm

What else would I expect from Orc Honor?
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Soo Ma Tai wrote:If the haft touches me, the hit is no good. Sweet, I will never have to tak another flail shot again, Ill just block the haft with my arm and call haft, who care where your ball hits. Talk about a con o' worms to open.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Big King Jimmy » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:49 pm

Good, I'm glad you're not the **** crazy old man I thought you were. Just the crazy old man.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Satanaka » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:33 pm

:devil:
Last edited by Satanaka on Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Angmarth » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:08 pm

Correct. No need to add or change rules, it is fine as is.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Satanaka » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:49 pm

:devil:
Last edited by Satanaka on Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Aegis » Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:35 pm

Saying you can just throw your arm into a haft to block is NO different than tilting your head to block a shoulder shot....it would be cheating either way....
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Dabbanoth » Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:38 pm

Big Jimmy wrote:Good, I'm glad you're not the **** crazy old man I thought you were. Just the crazy old man.

Satanaka wrote:HA!!!!! oh- I am gonna get you for that! hehehehehehehe
you make sure to get on my "parley" list for Octoberfest!! :devil:


"Did you get hit in a target area with legitimate force in a target area?"
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Aegis » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:51 am

Dagganoth wrote:"Did you get hit in a target area with legitimate force in a target area?"



do you take shots that bounce off your head first? why not?

thats the gist im getting from this thread, its an illegal shot followed by a legal one.

Legal striking surfaces are the only thing legal in my book because they are the only thing tested for safety.
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