Flail hafting is Legal?

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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Satanaka » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:56 am

guess that's why your not paid to think...
:devil:
Last edited by Satanaka on Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Dabbanoth » Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:14 am

Aegis wrote:
Dagganoth wrote:"Did you get hit in a target area with legitimate force in a target area?"



do you take shots that bounce off your head first? why not?


Yes, actually, i do. When you are as tall as i am, a shoulder drop is a really common shot that i see alot of. Being taller than most of the people who throw it on me, they have to stretch upward to throw it, decreasing their accuracy, if a shot catches my head, then continues on down to shoulder, then it went to my shoulder. It hit my shoulder. I am dead.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Aegis » Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:14 pm

the unwritten rule down here is punishment for headshots, cause if theres no punishment then there is no reason not to do it.

which leads to people throwing shots to disorient you and kill you or someone whose throwing a wild shot cause they arent as skilled a fighter simply wont care if they headshot you cause it increases their chance to score a kill...

im sorry, safety comes first and anything that encourages headshots removes safety.

Im all for adding helmets to the mix and allowing headshots as LEGAL target areas... but most people have fragile faces.

I know a guy with a detached retina, and a guy with a fractured jaw(both permanent injuries now) as well as several black eyes, some concussions and a couple bruisings.....

and the argument I keep hearing is, Even tho its UNSAFE, headshots are ok because the rulebook doesnt have a penalty for them... just whether the heralds arbitrarily want to pull someone based on a very subjective safety clause, after its too late.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Derian » Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:57 pm

If someone is intentionally throwing headshots, they should be removed from the event/practice. There's no subjectivity about it; that is a blatant disregard for the rules.

Accidental headshots do happen and are just that: accidents.

Is there some rash of people intentionally throwing headshots to gain an advantage in the south? I haven't made it to any southern events, but in over seven years of fighting, I have never seen someone doing this.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Dabbanoth » Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:00 pm

Derian wrote:If someone is intentionally throwing headshots, they should be removed from the event/practice. There's no subjectivity about it; that is a blatant disregard for the rules.

Accidental headshots do happen and are just that: accidents.

Is there some rash of people intentionally throwing headshots to gain an advantage in the south? I haven't made it to any southern events, but in over seven years of fighting, I have never seen someone doing this.

No.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Big King Jimmy » Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:06 pm

Aegis wrote:and the argument I keep hearing is, Even tho its UNSAFE, headshots are ok because the rulebook doesnt have a penalty for them... just whether the heralds arbitrarily want to pull someone based on a very subjective safety clause, after its too late.


There's a difference between "okay" and "**** happens."

At our practice, we just don't care, we don't want to punish people, and we don't want to stop the fighting, you call head and move on, and usually it's a 3 line exchange:

"Head!"
::fight fight fight::
"My bad!"
::fight fight fight::
"It's okay!"
::fight fight fight::
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Aegis » Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:18 pm

Derian wrote:If someone is intentionally throwing headshots, they should be removed from the event/practice. There's no subjectivity about it; that is a blatant disregard for the rules.

Accidental headshots do happen and are just that: accidents.

Is there some rash of people intentionally throwing headshots to gain an advantage in the south? I haven't made it to any southern events, but in over seven years of fighting, I have never seen someone doing this.



no, but discussions where you PROMOTE hitting people in the head and then legal and making them take it will generate new jerks,

I can almost guarantee that the next major event, this discussion will come up as some jerk insists that someone take his head to shoulder shot so that he can have a kill, making the headshot ok. which its not, which needs to be absolutely frickin clear that its not safe, and unsafe should not be promoted.

make no mistake, by condoning headshots followed by legal shots as legal and allowed, people WILL try to take advantage of it..

"oh my bad, didnt mean to whack you upside the head with every ounce of force i had, youre still dead tho.... take your frickin hits cheater"

and its that kinda * that doesnt need to be encouraged, keep it illegal and they will at least pretend to be sorry.

to Reiterate, its not rampant,yet, but I fear with the language used here to defend headshots as still legal to kill, it will become more so, and many of us get hit in the head plenty as it is.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Aegis » Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:23 pm

Big Jimmy wrote:
Aegis wrote:and the argument I keep hearing is, Even tho its UNSAFE, headshots are ok because the rulebook doesnt have a penalty for them... just whether the heralds arbitrarily want to pull someone based on a very subjective safety clause, after its too late.


There's a difference between "okay" and "**** happens."

At our practice, we just don't care, we don't want to punish people, and we don't want to stop the fighting, you call head and move on, and usually it's a 3 line exchange:

"Head!"
::fight fight fight::
"My bad!"
::fight fight fight::
"It's okay!"
::fight fight fight::


thats exactly how ours go, but again, if enough people read and misinterpret this thread, it will go

"Head!"
::fight fight fight::
"Dude I hit you, youre dead"
::fight fight fight::
""* you, you hit me in the head"
::fight fight fight::
"Dude headshots dont count, but i can bounce them off your head and its all good."
::fight fight fight::
"Herald calls Fighter that got hit in the head dead cause he read this thread too"

Fighter leaves the game and takes his fun elsewhere, cause being punished FOR BEING HIT IN THE HEAD IS NOT ONLY STUPID BUT THE OPPOSITE OF SAFE.

really.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Derian » Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:26 pm

I really think you're overreacting. If anything like this happens, it will be an isolated incident, and the heralds at the event in question will handle it.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Arrakis » Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:03 pm

Aegis, do you ever fight with a flail?

Also, how often do you get hit with a flail haft? Having seen the style of shield you use, I would think that most hafts would hit your shield.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Ralimar » Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:27 pm

First: If you feel core consistently on flail hafts, that is a weapons checking issue that needs to be addressed at a local or possibly even regional level.

You're saying that if headshots are made "OK" (which I don't think anyone is trying to do) it will be abused.

But if we go by your example, and headshots are punished, it will also be abused. If any shot that contacts your head doesn't count, then there will be people who intentionally block with their heads. Many years ago, The Highlands of Chaos had the "push-up rule" that Dur Demarion had for years, and the result was the same. Younger fighters would run up to experienced fighters, block with their head, and take them out of the fight because they had to do 10 push-ups in the middle of the brawl.

Obviously, our first concern is safety. Followed by playability.
If we make headshots legal, then participants will need to wear helmets. That goes against the spirit of our game, where people can walk off the sidewalk, pick up a sword, and start having fun.

No matter what, headshots WILL happen. To maximize on safety, realms need to monitor their own members. Example: Don't let new people use two-handed swords. Most of the serious head injuries I have seen have come from two-handers in the hands of reckless fighters.

As far as playability goes, if there is going to be a rule change (which I'm not convinced there needs to be, as only a dozen or so people have posted on this) it needs to be something that minimizes the potential abuses. We need a compromise. Headshots will ALWAYS be illegal. If you're unsafe, you'll get thrown off the field--PERIOD. But if you get nailed in the shoulder by a flail and the ball bounces up and taps you on the side of the head, you need to die.


This has gotten to be a really personal debate, and I think we need to start approaching it objectively. The problem is headshots, and I believe Aegis brought it up first. Do we need to fix it? In regards to rules, how? If we don't need to fix it, can we have faith in our players and the lengthy precedent of "unwritten rule" understanding in our sport?
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Big King Jimmy » Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:16 am

Anyone ever hear of a discussion on rules from this board ever being brought up at an event? Ever?

Or are people gonna read this, and continue to play the game they've always played, because this is the web board, and not real life?

I'm pretty sure we have several threads of "hitting in the head is not okay." all over the place. Do you have fighters that believed their friends when they said you don't have to stop for white bordered stop signs too?
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Aegis » Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:05 am

Theres an example already in war council where a disagreement already caused an issue at a practice.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby debuenzo » Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:05 am

aegis, it's always up to the target to call the shot, as i'm sure you know

so if they hit your head first and then an actual target, say it hit your head first, and that you won't take the shot.

you might cite the rule than one swing does one point of damage so cannot successfully strike two taget zones or something like that

i feel that head-> shoulder is not a good shot
shoulder-> head ok shot

to me it is about what got hit first


as far as the "Numenor 1-2" (headshot followed by good shot) goes, this would be a killing blow
if a fighter used this regularly (which you seem to be leary of) then a herald could make the call and throw them out
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Satanaka » Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:15 pm

Derian- no disrespect to you brother- but- We DO have people that do it on purpose....

Again- how can you Herald 'intent' if people are sly enough to "numenor 1, 2" oh- sorry dude about the busted lip- *** happens- but your dead... :axed:

When I visited Iowa the two times?? It WAS very fresh and clean and I had a blast- because the people had not gotten to the point of "I MUST WIN" and just wanted to have fun. That is NOT the way it is through out all Belegarth & Dagorhir...

If you think I am full of B.S. on most things- please take this one as truth.

Derian wrote:I really think you're overreacting. If anything like this happens, it will be an isolated incident, and the heralds at the event in question will handle it.
Last edited by Satanaka on Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Satanaka » Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:18 pm

I wish it was that easy.
Many of you guys say "the herald should....."
1st you have to have Heralds that will say something about it.
Then we need 2-3 Heralds for each fighter- to get all the angles. Never gonna happen.
We have 1 herald for about every 100 people at the biggest events.
Even the best Heralds can NOT catch everything.
We also have new Heralds, NOT to mention weak Heralds, or Heralds that won't make call on their buddies or unit members...




debuenzo wrote:as far as the "Numenor 1-2" (headshot followed by good shot) goes, this would be a killing blow if a fighter used this regularly (which you seem to be leary of) then a herald could make the call and throw them out
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Aegis » Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:11 pm

Satanaka wrote:I wish it was that easy.
Many of you guys say "the herald should....."
1st you have to have Heralds that will say something about it.
Then we need 2-3 Heralds for each fighter- to get all the angles. Never gonna happen.
We have 1 herald for about every 100 people at the biggest events.
Even the best Heralds can NOT catch everything.
We also have new Heralds, NOT to mention weak Heralds, or Heralds that won't make call on their buddies or unit members...




debuenzo wrote:as far as the "Numenor 1-2" (headshot followed by good shot) goes, this would be a killing blow if a fighter used this regularly (which you seem to be leary of) then a herald could make the call and throw them out


quoted for truth.
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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Satanaka » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:47 pm

Here is the original post that stated the question & debate.

Dane posted: "There seem to be two schools of thought on what the proper hit-taking is when a weapon impacts the head and then the body in a single swing."

Here are the answers:
Derian: "I personally take the shot."
Soo Ma Tai: "Single swing, no way"
Ralimar: "If it has sufficient force, you always take the shot."
Jimmy: "If it's a hard head shot, and a body shot at the same time, such that the headshot was painful, nope, callin head"
Kenny: "If I take a reckless swing and blast you in the head on the way down to your shoulder, I should not be rewarded for my reckless swing. Nor should you be penalized for getting blasted by my reckless swing." "It makes far more sense to reduce the incentive to game the system than to rely on regulation. If there's a reason to cheat, people will cheat. If cheating provides no benefit, people will not cheat."
Satanaka: "I would not want to count the shot or in the most strict- leave the decision on the person that got hit in the head."
Rowan: "I will take most shots that bounce off my head and into another body part"
Ursyne: "illegal shot goes to illegal hit and no damage"
Elbrim:" "Cannot use an illegal action to make way for a legal action..."
Alchemy: "i either say head or die and hit you and keep on going"
Freyson: "It is so hard to respond to this topic because I am completely unable to wrap my head around the point that there are actually people in this game advocating an advantage for cheaters"
Aegis: "if you throw an UNSAFE shot that hits my head and then my shoulder im not taking it."


Now- for anyone that has been part of this- at what point did it become insulting? What changed it from debate to personal? Those that jumped in and did not adress the actual issue- why are you here???

So- how did we get to where it is now? Everyone has an opinion and has the freedom to have one.

The only other issue that I see stem from "HOW TO ADRESS THIS ISSUE": and it ranges from new rules to clarifying rules to Herald enforcemeent to leave it up to the person being hit to Nothing is wrong the hit should be valid.
So- for those that DO NOT SEE GETTING CLOCKED IN THE FACE AND IT SLIDES INTO YOU CHEST- to taking the chest shot as a legal hit- then your posting stops there. If you think this is a problem and need to be adressed- then those people can post about how we should handle it. This becomes a different issue. New rule, New clarification, no new rule- just enforce via teaching and Heralding, or just leave it up to the person being hit????

Anyone else wonder why it's gotten crazy and stupid???


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Re: Flail hafting is Legal?

Postby Big King Jimmy » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:51 pm

I think people get defensive about how they've played their favorite game, some for years, some for months, but everyone for 100% of the time they've played it. Different areas have different conventions for different things, and when you hear another area does something different from yours, it's like hearing they don't use toilet paper.

Also, I think it's important to note that for a lot of people headshots aren't black and white, it's not "you get clocked in the face" all the time, and when you do use that example it's like saying that all car accidents are like 80 mph head on collisions. There are head grazes, skims, brushes and so on, and then there's getting clocked in the ear or face. I care about one, and I just don't give a **** about the other. That's a key point for me.
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