Stabs to limbs

[Kyrian]

The current rule reads like this:

3.4.1.5. Two disabled limb Target Areas (Arms and/or Legs) cause Death. Limbs injured with Class 3 and Class 4 Weapons do not count towards this total.

Does anyone know why do we do this?

What if we made it two disabled limbs by any class (other than rocks, of course) cause death?

From a safety perspective, I don't see anything changing dramatically. From a playability perspective, it makes the two-limb rule more straightforward. We would be able to explain it as, "Two limbs equals death." instead of "Two limbs equals death unless they were stabs or pierces from javelins or arrows. Pierces to limbs count to loss of use, not to the two-limb rule." From a realism point of view, a pierce to a limb, even if it didn't break the bone, would still cut and tear tissue as well as open major blood vessels causing the person to bleed out.

Thoughts?

[Ralimar]

I'm glad that you brought this back up, Kyrian.

I agree that for safety, the rule change would have no realistic impact.

For playability, it gives more power to archers, who deal the majority of piercing wounds. In particular, Archery tournaments would change. I've seen archers fire arrows with only one arm and one leg, but that would be no more. It's novel and entertaining, but it doesn't really occur on an active battlefield.

Historically, arrows caused the most damage by being pulled out. If a slashing weapon fractures your femur in 13th century Europe, you're probably going to die. The same is true for an arrow shot through your forearm and an arrow through your thigh. If you're tough enough to scramble around on your knee after a sword slash to your thigh, then you're probably tough enough to fight through 2 debilitating arrow pierces. Regardless, you're probably going to die after the fight. Historically, I think it's a moot point.

I personally don't feel that "Full gimping" adds a unique aspect to our sport. It does have a history, but the helpless gimp is ridiculously rare. I don't think that the rule's complexity adds to our sport as a whole.

[Kyrian]

For playability, it gives more power to archers, who deal the majority of piercing wounds. In particular, Archery tournaments would change. I've seen archers fire arrows with only one arm and one leg, but that would be no more. It's novel and entertaining, but it doesn't really occur on an active battlefield.

That was something I hadn't considered. It might increase the number of javelins and stabbing swords also.

I personally don't feel that "Full gimping" adds a unique aspect to our sport. It does have a history, but the helpless gimp is ridiculously rare. I don't think that the rule's complexity adds to our sport as a whole.

About the only time I've seen this occur regularly is during CTF battles.

[Elebrim]

From a realism point of view, a pierce to a limb, even if it didn't break the bone, would still cut and tear tissue as well as open major blood vessels causing the person to bleed out.

True, but by that same token we don't have a two-minute death timer for someone who is legged or armed. Blood loss isn't really a factor in our game.

Also, how might this affect the current rules that function off of pierced limbs? Would a pierced limb still be able to receive an infinite number of stabs? Also, would a pierced limb still be able to be slashed off by a Class 1 or Class 2 and not count against the overall wound total?

It might increase the number of javelins and stabbing swords also.

It probably would. And armor would increase, given that wearing armor over a target area negates a one-handed stab to that area. And it would probably increase the effectiveness and popularity of spears and glaives, though to a lesser degree.

However, stabbing swords break down much more quickly than non-stabbing swords, and that armor can sometimes increase the risk of injury in combat if it is poorly made, or if the opponent is unarmored. Also, I have seen a large number of spears that have broken down in mid-combat and stabbed several fighters before they were seen by a Herald. (On one occasion, I was on the receiving end.)

So, would the new safety risks be justified if the rules surrounding piercing damage were changed?

[Skydd]

It wouldn't really be a new risk. Stabbing Swords and Spears still can break down quickly and in mid combat, and poorly made armor can still present problems. It's just a matter of having more of them on the field.

In regards to the "full gimp" rule, I think it was originally conceived to balance out missle weapons as mentioned earlier. You can still deal damage from farther away, but you have a decreased chance of actually killing someone.

I don't really see a reason to argue either way in regards to keeping it though. It's one of those quirky rules that don't come up often enough to really matter in the grand scheme of things. You still can't use whatever limb was hit, amounting to either being legged or having a gimp arm. It just takes one more swing to kill you. Although we've all had to chase after that one douchebag who drags on battles because both of his arms are pierced...

[Arrakis]

Much simpler. I like it.

I take death from two limbs in most cases anyway, from forgetfulness or habit.

The only times I would LIKE to be alive with two limbs gone is when I'm being brutally legged by some spearman over and over.

[Angmarth]

Any 2 limbs as death is a house rule in Arnor. It is much simpler.

[Magpie Saegar]

If it encourages more stabbing weapons, which would in turn encourage more armor.... I'd say that that's two steps in the right direction.

[Forkbeard]

I've always thought the peirced limb rule we have now was stupid. When I explain our fighting rules to people its one of the two things I'm actualy embarassed about. The other is death by spanking, but that's a whole nother kettle of fish.
2 limbs =death is the fastest, easyest way to go.
I'll vote for that.

FB

[Cyric]

I agree. it's much easier to keep track of, you don't have any of the "oh, i'm not dead, i was stabbed in that leg, not hit".

I think stabbed arms would still need to be hacked off, and wouldn't count for death. that would maintain a bit of difference between stabbing and slashing.

I would support this rules change.

[Oisin]

Any 2 limbs as death is a house rule in Arnor. It is much simpler.

QFT. It's soooo much simpler. When new people who have been playing to us are getting ready to go to national events and we have to explain the national rules to them, the universal reaction to it is some variation on the theme of: "Why? That's so stupid. It makes no sense."

Safety, Playability, Realism.

I don't really think there's a good argument against in terms of safety. "Allowing stabbing tips to do full damage would increase the number of unsafe armour and swords on the field" is, from a logical standpoint, completely invalid. Concerns about armour and stabbing tip safety should be dealt with by not allowing unsafe armour on the field, and by having less stringent stabbing tip softness requirements. Seem a bit counter intuitive? In every case I've ever seen of someone getting hurt by a stabbing tip, not counting head/groin shots and the like, it's been because the tip broke down, not because the tip was too hard. In fact, we allow standard blue swords with NO concessions towards softness to count as green here at Arnor, and I can't think of a single person hurt because a stabbing tip was too hard in almost four years now that I've been in St. Louis. Tips don't need all that extra massive padding in order to be safe, and swords with those huge tips break down and become unsafe much quicker.

In terms of playability, I don't really see anything that this adds positively to the game (by the time you've lost two limbs, you're basically useless as a combatant in 99% of situations anyway, regardless of whether they're pierced or hacked). Does it tone down missile weapon power? Maybe, a little bit, but at most events I go to, most people just take death anyway once they've lost two limbs. I think that the increased complexity is not in any way justified by the benefits, which are marginal if they exist at all.

Realism is a whole different can of worms that should probably not be opened, because the truth of the matter is that our rules don't really reflect realism beyond the barest shadow. Anyway, I guarantee you that a wide-bladed infantry spear, a broadhead arrow, or a thrust from a sword designed for stabbing will wreck one of your limbs just as quickly and effectively as a cutting blow from a sword. And if one of your arms was actually completely hacked off, as our rules represent, you'd be dead or dying already anyway, not dropping whatever was in that hand and running around with your sword still acting as a potentially effective combatant.

Anyway, as I see it, playability is the real argument here in favor of making all weapons count the same towards limb-death. The complication just doesn't justify the complexity.

[Elebrim]

In every case I've ever seen of someone getting hurt by a stabbing tip, not counting head/groin shots and the like, it's been because the tip broke down, not because the tip was too hard.

...

Tips don't need all that extra massive padding in order to be safe, and swords with those huge tips break down and become unsafe much quicker.

That I will agree with; one of my safest green weapons has an incredibly tough stabbing tip. The problem is that people are so accustomed to the super-soft stabbing tips that building tougher stabbing tips is now counter-intuitive. People expect the pillow-soft stab, almost to the point that some heralds will not pass a stiff stabbing tip at all. Until people figure this out on a mass scale, stabbing tips will stay soft, which will means they will break, which means people will get hurt more frequently.

[Angmarth]

As Oisin has stated so eloquently, there is no real reason to have the ridiculous stab checking for swords. If I am weapons checker, and someone asks for their tip to be passed, I would pass it. If we didn't have a sufficient force rule, I would be more likely to agree with the camp that wants softer tips. Currently with a poofta tip it becomes harder to get a solid strike with a stab, which seems to me is counter to the culture in which we claim we come from.

Since the inception of Arnor in 2000, we have been using standard Edhellen technology swords as stabbing. We have had ZERO injuries from stabbing. If you include the HA guys from Riverbend (Brutus, Daemarth, Angwyn, Ohtar) in that group, you should see that there are plenty of hard hitters down here. We even have a fairly large contingent of Amtgarders who cross over and stab all the time. NO INJURIES from stabs. Plenty of minor injuries from everything else, but none from stabs. IMHO that makes the safety issue here pretty much moot.

[Arrakis]

*whine*

But Aaannngmaaarth! Sure, they don't injure people or do any damage, but non-open cell stabbing tips huuuu-uurrrrt!!

*/whine*

The only stabbing tips of mine that passed at Rag or Beltaine were the stupefyingly squishy ones that only the more honorable fighters actually accept stabs from as being of sufficient force. I * near have to aim for the spine from in front of them to get sufficient force with these things. Come on, guys.

[Olos]

As Oisin has stated so eloquently, there is no real reason to have the ridiculous stab checking for swords. If I am weapons checker, and someone asks for their tip to be passed, I would pass it. If we didn't have a sufficient force rule, I would be more likely to agree with the camp that wants softer tips. Currently with a poofta tip it becomes harder to get a solid strike with a stab, which seems to me is counter to the culture in which we claim we come from.

Since the inception of Arnor in 2000, we have been using standard Edhellen technology swords as stabbing. We have had ZERO injuries from stabbing. If you include the HA guys from Riverbend (Brutus, Daemarth, Angwyn, Ohtar) in that group, you should see that there are plenty of hard hitters down here. We even have a fairly large contingent of Amtgarders who cross over and stab all the time. NO INJURIES from stabs. Plenty of minor injuries from everything else, but none from stabs. IMHO that makes the safety issue here pretty much moot.

Minor adjudication:

A tip blew out on kat's spine at one practice like 6 months ago. No real injury, she was just * as all hell and * about it for a few days. I do agree with the rule though, stab tip checking gets a little ridiculous sometimes.

And honestly, with the number of people that wear armor there (about half on any given day) not many people really do much of the stabbing. I would say that maybe it's because I wear armor and I don't notice, but I don't really get stabs my way from swords even when I take the armor off. In general, I say it's no worse than blues really, and as stated above, adds more stabbing and more armor, both of which I consider a good thing.

[Soo Ma Tai]

People dont stab you because there ins't hardly a blue sword out there with a passing stab tip. I know I can't make one with the materials I have available.

Unfortunately there is no actual rule about stab tips. The stapping tips checking is sooper lame at this point. We used blue foam stabbys in Dur-D and the fledgling Stygia realm for a long time with no injuries. I really don't like that we basicall went to a non-stabbing game. I also don't like that Ethellen pole-arms pass for stabbing with no extra padding to be used two handed, but my sword wont pass cause it hits to hard...come on, what a joke.

BRING BACK STABBING!

[Big King Jimmy]

I have a blue sword stabby that has passed at the last 3 events that I've been 2. 1 minievent, 'Geddon and Summer War.

It's a firm stabby.

If weapons check whines about your stabby, maybe it just sucks.

[Arrakis]

I have taken a pile of stabby blues and reds to Beltaine and Geddon this year. Different tips passed different days at different events. There was no consistency WHATSOEVER.

Jimmy, you got SUPER lucky and got checkers that knew what they were doing. Don't get *.

[Angmarth]

This post is for whomever is running weapons check at O-Fest.... relax on the stab tips and pass them. See how it goes.

[Cyric]

I'll be helping/running weapon check at okfest, i'll see what i can do. there's a big difference between an edhellen sword and some sword made all out of blue foam by someone who may or may not know what they're doing. I have never been one to fail things unnecessarily, but i've also seen some pretty scary "stabbing" tips in my day. If a tip is stable and solid, it'll probably pass. if a tip is wobbly and has the chance of shifting aside to core, then i'll fail. how the weapon is made will make a big difference, so if you're trying to pass your sword as stabby, you'd better be able to explain exactly how you made it, and what materials you used.

It is a very subjective thing, but a hard stab at weapon check shouldn't mean the weapon fails.

[Oisin]

So if I put green tape on my Edhellens before weapons check at Oktoberfest, you'll pass them as green? Really? Please?

[Freyson]

Personally I love the stab rules (death-wise) as they are currently. Equalizing stabs with hacks would take away from the game too much. The safety issue on changing is a non-issue since there are pro's and con's to either side. Yet the realism and playability issues are something to consider. Realistically a stab to a limb is less likely to result in shock or even death than a hack. Even multiple stab wounds to an arm or leg are much more survivable than a single hack or crushing blow. To the torso it is actually the opposite, a stab wound to the gut is a quicker kill than a hack to the same area. Realistically the current rules on stabs are pretty good when it comes to what would actually drop a person out of combat. But the real reason I would oppose a change is playability. Though there is little tactical reason to stab over hack in most open field toilet battles, in resurrection and other scenario type battles the current stab rules can make a huge difference. Being able to floor-mat someone in a woods battle so that person cannot get to the rez point or even pick up a weapon to kill themselves is not only a tactical advantage, it can be just plain fun. Coming from a realm that has 90%+ stab legal weapons and does some type of rez battles almost every week, the full gimp floor-matting happens quite a bit. There is also the point that with a change to equalize stabs and hacks archers would now be even more dangerous and overpowered. I just don't feel that this would be a good change.


Realm specifically, Southern Marches has been much more consistent and slightly more lenient on stab tips over the past decade than many other realms. As mentioned above, 90%+ of the weapons down here are stab legal. At one point like Arnor we did try to allow the standard Edhellen weapons as stab legal, but unlike Arnor we had injuries. Those weapons as made were too stiff for stabbing without modification, as well as having too much fold over and cores poking through. For perspective though, our average temperature is much higher which weakens the foam and due to the heat we have fewer armored people than Arnor. I do agree that current stab checking standards are too tough in most places, but disagree that 'as is' Edhellen swords are stab safe. (Side note - Galan showed me one of the new stab designed Edhellen swords and they were not horrible, though I still want to see them in play test.) A stab tip should not fold more than 45 degrees, and should fold less depending on the core diameter. Thinner cores should have less fold since they poke through easier, which was the cause of some of the injuries down here. A large diameter core is less likely to poke through so can have a bit more fold over. The 'softness' should also be tested and judged by the way the weapon is being used. A two handed, braced running charge with a one handed sword or dagger is just ridiculous. The 'softness' should also be based on where the hit is most likely to connect solidly and the injury possibility of that area. Stabs rarely land super hard on the limbs since they glance off, they land super hard on the less injury prone torso. A stab tip which feels as hard as a swing and which does not fold should pass.

[Arrakis]

Raise your hand if you like laying in the woods at Ragnarok for an hour with all of your limbs stabbed waiting for the battle to end instead of fighting, which you paid lots of money (travel costs, fee, etc.) to go do.




Anybody?




No?



Freyson, how does getting taken out of a battle in such a manner make ANYONE's day of fighting better?

Also, a Public Service Announcement: Res Battles Are STUPID. That's like ALL this little chapter up here ever wants to do and it's just frustrating. All you do is get worn out with no breaks and no winner, no adjustment of the teams.... It's just crappy. Don't play res battles unless you're trying to wear the young guys the hell out so you can beat them in the team battles later.


Freyson, talking about realism with respect to death and damage in our game is like saying that Merlin is more realistic than Gandalf. If you were to actually hit me in the leg with a sword hard enough to make me drop to the ground, I'm dead within about 10 seconds, period. If you hacked my arm OFF, I'm dead relatively quickly, or at least totally incapacitated. And, you said it yourself: stabs to the body are deadlier than hacks and slashes. Shouldn't we make it so that stabs penetrate most or all body armor and kill instantly to more realistically portray that? Or should we just require TWO blue hits to the unarmored torso or one stab to kill someone?


The stab rules are uselessly overcomplicated and add nothing of value to the game. When I have two limbs gone, I take death most of the time because it's just not worth the effort of remembering what got stabbed and what got slashed in the heat of combat. All the stabbed limbs rule is GOOD for is for letting shieldmen live at the front edge of a line against spearmen with both legs stabbed. I personally don't value that highly enough to keep the extra complication of no-death-by-limb-stabs.

[Elebrim]

Raise your hand if you like laying in the woods at Ragnarok for an hour with all of your limbs stabbed waiting for the battle to end instead of fighting, which you paid lots of money (travel costs, fee, etc.) to go do.

...

Freyson, how does getting taken out of a battle in such a manner make ANYONE's day of fighting better?

*Raises Hand*

Piercing enemy limbs does serve a strategic purpose in disabling them, if not killing them outright. Also, when pierced you can still roll around on your torso without using your legs to be mobile, and you can still shout to help allies and annoy enemies just to have fun.

Also, a Public Service Announcement: Res Battles Are STUPID. That's like ALL this little chapter up here ever wants to do and it's just frustrating. All you do is get worn out with no breaks and no winner, no adjustment of the teams.... It's just crappy. Don't play res battles unless you're trying to wear the young guys the * out so you can beat them in the team battles later.

What does this have to do with anything? That's only your opinion. Sometimes winning isn't everything; if they have fun, isn't that the point?

The stab rules are uselessly overcomplicated and add nothing of value to the game.

Except make it a little more fun?

All the stabbed limbs rule is GOOD for is for letting shieldmen live at the front edge of a line against spearmen with both legs stabbed. I personally don't value that highly enough to keep the extra complication of no-death-by-limb-stabs.

Or let spearmen or glaivemen live to keep stabbing or swinging at others with both legs pierced, or let archers get shot or stabbed in a limb or two and keep firing, or let a florentine fighter get pierced and keep fighting, or let a new player who got shot keep going ... or... or... Getting the picture? It's the balance point that lets people have fun. Not just the people who are skilled, but all people can have fun.

[Angmarth]

I don't think anyone can argue that "realism" does not play into this arguement, so let's just throw it out.

Playability - Under the current rules, you can take unlimited 2 handed spear shots to an arm which is in front of your body hanging limp. How does this not seem ridiculous?

Safety - If you have 2 pierced arms, and are running around like an idiot, you have no method to defend yourself. I (among many others of like mind) am going to go out of my way to fold you like Weird Al's accordion when you get close. If you can't defend yourself, or perform any particularly useful function on the field, why are you not dead?

[Arrakis]

Elebrim, everything you mentioned is silly crap that makes our sport look bad. Archers firing at people with one arm and one leg stabbed is STUPID. And yeah, that's my opinion.

Rolling around on your torso without the use of your limbs? You can move by way of abdominal contractions ONLY? No, I'm pretty sure you're pushing with your arms and legs, even if you don't think you are. Again, I'm glad to know that you like laying in the dirt and shouting as much as you like standing up and fighting, but I'm pretty sure you're in the minority.

And Elebrim, I'm saying our rules REDUCE peoples' fun. Think about your beloved Res Battle. No-skill-having Newbie Al gets stabbed in all limbs and lays on the field for 15 minutes shouting at people instead of fighting (primarily because he, and, apparently, all of you people who DO just lay there all-stabbed, doesn't understand that he can just call himself dead and go back to the res point at any time...). How much fun do you think he's having? Your way means that people who aren't great fighters can be cruelly disabled and denied their fun by more skilled fighters!

Elebrim, I'm just not seeing it.

[Derian]

Yeah, if I'm completely incapacitated, I'm going to just call myself dead and respawn or whatever.

[Soo Ma Tai]

Your way means that people who aren't great fighters can be cruelly disabled and denied their fun by more skilled fighters!

Or they can simply call themselves dead and start over...lol.

I personally like the fact that I can take some stabs and live on to fight. I have never, in an actual belegarth battle, seen someone with 4 stabbed limbs. That's preposterous. If I have stabbed all your limbs, I will take the fifth shot and kill you. If not, call yourself dead and go back to valhalla. I would hate to see archers with an even greater advantage than they already have now. I agree it may be more realistic, but this game does not approximate realm combat at all. It is not unsafe and adds a level of depth to the game that would not be there is we remove the stab rules. As far as playability goes...we aren't asking anyone to keep track of hit points or a ton of armor or anything else, how hard is it to remember an arm is stabbed and not hacked.

[Big King Jimmy]

Your way means that people who aren't great fighters can be cruelly disabled and denied their fun by more skilled fighters!

Or they can simply call themselves dead and start over...lol.

I personally like the fact that I can take some stabs and live on to fight. I have never, in an actual belegarth battle, seen someone with 4 stabbed limbs. That's preposterous. If I have stabbed all your limbs, I will take the fifth shot and kill you. If not, call yourself dead and go back to valhalla. I would hate to see archers with an even greater advantage than they already have now. I agree it may be more realistic, but this game does not approximate realm combat at all. It is not unsafe and adds a level of depth to the game that would not be there is we remove the stab rules. As far as playability goes...we aren't asking anyone to keep track of hit points or a ton of armor or anything else, how hard is it to remember an arm is stabbed and not hacked.

I have seen battles where people had 4 stabbed limbs. I've also seen battles where calling yourself dead was specifically disallowed. This happens a lot in IL in capture the flag battles.

[Soo Ma Tai]

Well, then that sounds like a problem with the battle rules, not the combat rules as a whole. And, if that were the rules, I would hold off on my 5th shot and leave you totally gimped.

[Arrakis]

Complexity of the game != Depth of the game.

Adding in a nonsensical damage-taking addendum like we currently have just adds noise to our rule system. It's a rule we could do without. It would only improve playability. It would increase the number of stabbing tips on the field and reduce the amount of thinking you have to do about your wounds while you're trying to fight.

It's realistic, too. You bleed out just as quickly from a stab as a slash. Ask anyone who's been on the bad end of a bayoneting or a shanking. I just don't see the point of the added complexity.

And if you want to nerf archery, just nerf archery! Say arrows no longer go through every * thing and can kill you if the archer THINKS he hit you. Say arrow-shot limbs don't contribute to death by dismemberment. Even that would be less complex.

[Mekoot Rowan]

And if you want to nerf archery, just nerf archery! Say arrows no longer go through every * thing and can kill you if the archer THINKS he hit you. Say arrow-shot limbs don't contribute to death by dismemberment. Even that would be less complex.

So one kind of piercing kills you but another doesn't? How would that be less complex? I don't think anyone in this thread is talking about nerfing archery, it's powerful enough as it is without adding something else that would ensure archers get more kills.

It seems like everyone is ignoring the arrow problem and focusing on how great an increase in blue stabbing would be. Furthermore, alot of the complaints in this thread are about stabbing tips, which is totally beside the point when we should be specifically talking about stabs to limbs and how the rules affect playability. I would be all for seeing another thread about a change in stabbing tip construction standards and checking, but that is a totally different discussion.

The way I see it, there doesn't seem to be a good way to change piercing damage to lethal without boosting archery to a higher level of effectiveness or making some kind of rule about different types of piercing weapons that would be more convoluted than what we have now.

[Arrakis]

The way I see it, there doesn't seem to be a good way to change piercing damage to lethal without boosting archery to a higher level of effectiveness or making some kind of rule about different types of piercing weapons that would be more convoluted than what we have now.

Sigh. That, unfortunately, does seem to be the case. I hadn't been considering archery until that last post; I simply don't see it very often, being from a Realm that only has two or three half-time archers, really, and now being in an area with no Realm or Chapter large enough to support arching as a real style.

Archery just seems to complicate the hell out of things.

[Angmarth]

1) Make 2 limbs death. (No matter the method of injury.)
2) Relax on the stabbing tips.
3) Make Missiles (ALL missiles) non-reusable.

That solves all of the issues with regards to overpowering archery and limb death to piercing. These are the house rules we play with in Arnor. We are also experimenting with making all great weapons CLASS 2. Shields can only be broken with a swing (spear stabs can't destroy shields).

[Cyric]

I don't think this will overpower archery that much. a shot to the body or head is still way more valuable than a limb shot. if you lose both arms or legs, your ablitly to impact the battle is pretty much over anyway.

Besides, how many people here have got shot in the leg, then take a hit to the arm and call death, forgetting they were peirced, not hacked? I think the simplification of the rules is a bigger benifit than slightly higher archer kills is a detrement.

[Sir Anastasia]

Although I very much enjoy this tradition, I do recognize that it would greatly simplify the rules. However, I also agree that stabbing tip checking should be relaxed. I come from a realm that has been using swords as stabbing legal without the open cell. We have been playing that way for over 12 years, and no one has been harmed due to a tip lacking open cell, provided all of the following things are true of the weapon:
1) penny blunted core or PVC core with an internal diameter >0.5"
2) # layers on striking surface = to # layers on tip
3) no twistiness or bending at the tip, or other common failings

I am curious as to how the stabbing tips with open cell ever got started anyway, in addition I abhor the idea of a "sword" that can slash and not stab. I do not believe there is much historical precedence for this type of weapon.

-Anastasia of Chamonix

[faline]

On the *actual* topic at hand and not all those other ones you guys are throwing out, simplifying the rules to '2 limbs gone = death' is the way to go.

The only place that'll truly be impacted will be regens, and when was the last time you saw an actual regen at a national BELEGARTH event?

Lets do it.

[Angmarth]

Start talking to your realms folks... I'm bringing this one up at the next opportunity.

[Arrakis]

We would be keeping the "Stabbed arm hangs by your body instead of going behind your back and needs to be hit again with a slash before the shot goes through to the torso" rule thing, right?

[Timid]

I'm not in a speaking realm, but the people I've talked to so far in my realm are against this, and I am well against it as well. If you want true simplicity, then remove armor, because you have to count an extra hit, and what if you forgot you had armor, or forgot your armor is hit, or forgot that when that guy with two hands on his spear stabbed you it went through? My realm doesn't have alot of stabbing swords, but we do have alot of stabbing and missile weapons. Yes, there is sometimes confusion, and on might think they are dead when they aren't, but that also comes up when a sword hits you in a gray area and you take a leg, only to realize a couple seconds later, "oh wait, that one probably killed me." It's not too hard to explain to new people "and greens and yellow disable your limb but don't count towards your two point total. Torso shots with them, however, still count as death". Also, you're not useless with a stabbed arm and a hacked off leg, and to me, this sport is about fun, and it's alot of fun to be able to gimp someone now and again. We've had situations where a person is fully gimped, and yes, it tuns silly, but it also provides a good laugh for both the person gimped (Who usually dies soon after) and those watching.

The short version of all this: I don't think it's all that confusing to keep track of pierced limbs, I think it provides a bit of needed balance for stabbing and more importantly missile weapons, there is nothing wrong with complicated rules, its what keeps things interesting. Hate me if you want for being of that opinion, but ya, that's my two cents.

Sorry I didn't get to post any of this earlier, I've been watching this hoping more people would rally against this while I was working out getting permission to post here. If it gets changed, I guess we can always keep it as a realm rule, I'd just rather not have such a big rule here that we have to adjust when we go to events.

[Rocca]

I really object to this rule change, for the reasons already states above by those who also object to it. Also, I think that it allows for more variety and varying strategies in the game.

Again, I don't want to belabor the point but I really object to this and I only wish that the moderator of this forum had actually been active so I could have posted on this subject earlier.

[Arrakis]

I played with another medieval combat group recently that has no death by dismemberment rule at all. People routinely hop around on one leg with one sword out in front of them or run around with no arms just trying to be a bother to the enemy and guess what?

It's completely ridiculous. It doesn't look realistic, it doesn't look cool, and it doesn't look hardcore, three things that our sport needs to be to attract members.

Why the hell are people still arguing for the ability to stab someone in both freakin' arms and let them live??

[Timid]

As I said, I'm arguing because more often then not, a person gets an arm and a leg taken, and still lives, otherwise the person is useless, and usually gets killed very soon after. Also, the reason people are still arguing for this is because we are of the strong opinion that it should stay. I realize you have a strong opinion the other way, but don't belittle my opinion by saying I shouldn't voice it.

[Arrakis]

Timid, I'm not saying I can't believe that you are still expressing that opinion because I don't want you to voice your opinion, I'm saying I can't believe you're still expressing an opinion that makes absolutely no sense.

But whatever. We'll let representative democracy be the judge.

[Aslaug]

I think we should keep the piercing rule, but only for missile weapons.

[Rocca]

Ah i see. So belittling the opinion itself - because you don't agree with it - is better? Clearly there are people who agree with the current rule, and think that it makes sense. We've already heard what you had to say on the subject, and I don't think that those of us with dissenting opinions have had a chance to be heard yet as we weren't allowed on the forum for a while.

And you think that the results of representative democracy always make sense?

Aslaug - that is an interesting idea, and while I am still opposed to it, i think that its better than making all stabs the same as slashes.

[Cyric]

The arm-dangle would be gone under the new rule. if you get shot or hacked, you still put the arm behind your back.

[Arrakis]

Thank you, Cyric. I don't know if I prefer that outcome, but at least that's an answer.

Rocca: You guys aren't adding anything to the discussion. You guys are saying "Woah nao guise, I like it the other way!" and, if you're providing any reasons at all, are saying the same things that have been said to death in this thread or are just saying, "Well, I think being able to live as a useless fighter is great!"

Make a point and maybe I'll listen.

[Derian]

In the interest of furthering this discussion as opposed to letting it stagnate, I'm going to lock this thread.

Angmarth made a motion to change the rules, but it'll have to wait until the next voting period. In the meantime, this is your chance to discuss it in a more 'serious' setting.

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