Crossbow Question

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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Turin » Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:14 am

AND, the discussion & use of "power stroke" is a necessary one. Particularly for hand bows. This is why: my bow, which I consider to be fairly standard example of what we commonly use, has an at rest distance from the front to the string of 8". In our rules & using our arrows, it cannot draw further than 28". So the difference is 20". That is the effective distance that the string can actually move & do work upon the mass of the arrow. I had a string made for my bow so that it pulls 35# * 28" of total draw, so: 20" (power stroke) * 35# = 700ip of force.
Now, let's say that I decided to make my own bow. After all the work, after painstakingly tillering it, I get a measure 3" from the front of the bow to the string at rest. Now my power stroke is 28"-3"= 25". I go get a made for it that also pulls 35# * 28" of draw. Now the math is 25" (power stroke) * 35 # = 875 ip.

Thats 20% more force - to your face. And it completely within the rules.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Forkbeard » Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:43 am

My face isn't scared of your fancy bow, even with 20 extra pounds.
\Simplicity in the rules is my goal here. Compplicated rules will not pass. Simple rules will.
I'm not saying anyones ideas aren't important. I'm sighting the fact that our WC council is against anything more complex than a few line added to the book. I want xbows to work. I also want to be alble to have some rule proposals come out of this.
If we try to write rules the will apply to every peice of **** xbow in the world, with the weapon checker(or the bow owner) either doing a mess of math at every weapon check or checking some deuchbags math at every inspection, they will never pass.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Oznog » Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:14 am

Turin wrote:AND, the discussion & use of "power stroke" is a necessary one. Particularly for hand bows. .


Ha good observation. However, this is what it comes down to:
Straight limb self bow 6.0" - 6.5"
Straight limb or reflex laminated longbow 6.25" - 6.75"
Reflex - deflex long bow 6.5" - 7.0"
Recurve self bow 6.5" - 7.0"
Hybrid Long Bow 7.25" - 7.75"
50's Style Recurve 6.75" - 7.25"
Modern Hunting Recurve 7.5" - 8.0"
Modern Target Recurve 64" or longer 8.0" - 8.5"


The prototype the rule worked from was probably the 50's recurve, so 7" brace height. Thus the most extreme example would be 6" BH, or 4.7% higher. You cannot brace lower that 6", the bow will strike your hand and be very badly out of tune for a number of technical reasons. There are some monsters that brace 9.25" and those get 11% less power stroke as the extreme, which kinda sucks but it's not a safety problem.

Now remember my question of "how do you measure draw" though? If you measure by drawing until the 28" stick hits the front of the shelf, a thinner handle allows you to draw further, doesn't it? Well it's an interesting catch there but it gives like 0.5" more draw at most. And these thin handles occur in non-recurved longbows which have always been significant underperformers to begin with and I assure you are nothing to worry about.

The static-tip horsebows, on the other hand, do significantly outperform both the 50's recurves and any modern recurve given an equivalent draw length and poundage. But they are pretty rare to see in a LARP. They're expensive. I can only hope that people who bring them know what they're doing. I've not been able to measure one and haven't seen a good comparative analysis of feet-per-sec between the two, but everyone does say yes they're distinctly faster.

Again the difference is that crossbows have a much greater variation in power stroke. The 10" is 67% more than the 6", and that's not even considering the more "extreme" possibilities. Much more than the extremes of the handbow variations.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Forkbeard » Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:15 pm

Wrong, dude. Our rule were written with the most powerfull 35#*" bows in mind.
Weapon checkers always use the strongest bow at an event to do the physical shooting test on arrows. This mean the take the bow that shoots the hardest( a NEW hunting recurve that pulls exactly 35# * 28") and shoots every arrow at the event at a person so they can judge the safety of each arrow.
They also do pull tests on each and every bow.
They do this every day of every event before the fighting starts.
This is the biggest reason there will only ever be one type of xbow allowed in our rules. Each one will need to be tested every day of every event it is at. The people who check them will NOT do extra math of anything else to figure out if your xbow is safe. They will do a draw weight and draw lenght check. THen they will test all the bolts. Every Day.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Peregrine » Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:46 pm

I agree with forkbeard on this one. if you want x-bows, you have to keep it simple or it will stay max 15#
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Angmarth » Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:36 pm

There are a lot of good things here, but I think the simplest one is the "power stroke" measure. The distance between the string at rest and * is extremely easy. I think that the "inch-pounds" is the simplest and most accurate idea as well. We always have a head weapons checker at an event. It would not be THAT difficult to put this onus on him/her. We are going to put this rule immediately on the Arnor books as a house rule and work on getting some tests done.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Oznog » Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:11 pm

Forkbeard wrote:This is the biggest reason there will only ever be one type of xbow allowed in our rules. Each one will need to be tested every day of every event it is at. The people who check them will NOT do extra math of anything else to figure out if your xbow is safe. They will do a draw weight and draw lenght check. THen they will test all the bolts. Every Day.
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But how is the difficulty any different?

You pull 57 lbs and measure 8.25". They're gonna take both those measures either way, right?
Then the Marshall would ask for the calculator and 57*8.25=470 which is less than 500. Player can't produce a calculator, Marshall says tough that's not my problem rules say you gonna provide me a calculator with a crossbow, so I can't pass you.

In fact it's slightly simpler because there aren't two limits to remember there.

I see the chart as a problem. 1" graduations are too coarse. At 7"-ish you get into a question over whether it's a 7" 71# limit or round up to an 8" 64# limit. That's upping the standard by 14% based on a question of whether that counts as just under or over 7". And that's kind of a lot, 14% more on a 35# bow is a 40# bow. It's a big jump to be making based on nitpicking the exact length reading. Plus, of course, you gotta have that chart present and someone has already objected to having the player provide the chart at all due to a slight possibility of alteration.

The permanent markings are a slight problem too. Sometimes we do play with string length or change string or the string stretches. So you could have a new power stroke or poundage which is slightly different than before, but I'm saying you could still be legal by "the chart" but the checker's gonna fail you if he doesn't read the exact same power stroke as what's printed on the bow.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Arrakis » Sat Nov 08, 2008 10:55 am

Just implement 50# max and 10" max power stroke.

That means that bigger, bulkier, more historical crossbows are more powerful than tiny pistol-grip, last-ditch hand crossbows.

That's appropriate, right?
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Forkbeard » Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:04 am

Thank you Angmarth. If you guys are gonna test these theories out, then I'm sure we'll have some buildable idea by spring.
Please keep us posted.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Oznog » Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:04 am

Arrakis wrote:Just implement 50# max and 10" max power stroke.

That means that bigger, bulkier, more historical crossbows are more powerful than tiny pistol-grip, last-ditch hand crossbows.

That's appropriate, right?


Actually the tiny pistol-grip, last-ditch hand crossbow might be deemed "illegally powerful" by that wording. They advertise 80 lbs, but don't actually measure nearly that much. Something like 50# but might be a little more it's pretty hard to measure.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Arrakis » Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:51 am

I didn't mean commercial ones.

I meant Bel-legal ones.

Jesus, it's like people don't even want to build their gear from scratch anymore...
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Turin » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:08 am

Actually, I'd rather more professionally constructed bows & crossbows. On the average, it seems safer.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Arrakis » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:12 am

Then why not just compile a list of Bel-acceptable commercial models?
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Turin » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:22 am

Arrakis wrote:Then why not just compile a list of Bel-acceptable commercial models?


Probably not, for the sake of simplicity, brevity & douche-baggery.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Skydd » Mon Nov 10, 2008 3:45 pm

Now, the problem with crossbows has always been the "Half-Draw" Rule. We can increase the poundage from 15# at a range of greater than 15', but what happens when you get into "Half Draw" Range? Can a crossbow not fire once the target is within 15 ft?
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Big King Jimmy » Mon Nov 10, 2008 3:49 pm

No Skydd, we're trying to find a strength that is viable at any range.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Skydd » Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:24 pm

Ok, question answered then. Carry on.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Oisin » Mon Nov 10, 2008 7:56 pm

A 50 lb * 10 inch crossbow (as an example weight) produces roughly the same amount of force as a 35 lb * 28" draw bow from minimum full draw distance, so even if you shoot someone point blank with one, you're within the acceptable range of force.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Skydd » Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:16 pm

Oisin wrote:A 50 lb * 10 inch crossbow (as an example weight) produces roughly the same amount of force as a 35 lb * 28" draw bow from minimum full draw distance, so even if you shoot someone point blank with one, you're within the acceptable range of force.

Going by that, if the 50# at 10" is equivalent to 35# at 28", what about half draw? That's my only concern, and from my understanding, the reason crossbows are as weak as they are currently. Within 15ft you're supposed to half-draw a bow, you can't do that with a crossbow, so the poundage was dropped to compensate for it.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Arrakis » Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:28 pm

Less impact from the lighter bolt was the last argument I heard.

Also, 28" draw (call it 22" power stroke) yields 770 inch-pounds. 10"*#=500 i-p, so it's already at least lower than a bow at fulldraw.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Big King Jimmy » Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:28 am

At oct-fest, a cross bow was passed that exceeded the current max specifications after Kegg volunteered to be shot in the face point blank.

At Muxlovia Mayhem the bow was pulled off the field after complaints that it hit too soft.

Zoop, it's owner, was pretty pist. *. Can't wait till we have this fixed.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Arrakis » Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:31 am

I forget who (maybe Fearoft?) but someone had a hand crossbow that mad exceeded the current crossbow specs (65#s, I think, but at like a 6# power stroke) and it got passed after the marshals determined it was safe and it was used as a * effective one-shot pre-engagement weapon.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Peregrine » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:13 pm

Big Jimmy wrote:At oct-fest, a cross bow was passed that exceeded the current max specifications after Kegg volunteered to be shot in the face point blank.

At Muxlovia Mayhem the bow was pulled off the field after complaints that it hit too soft.

Zoop, it's owner, was pretty pist. *. Can't wait till we have this fixed.


who pulled it? you can pm.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Big King Jimmy » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:30 pm

It was Smiley. I don't mind posting because I talked to him about it later. It was right near the beginning of the event when he was trying to do like 5 things at once, and he basically pulled it to shut up a couple of retards. I told him to stick to his convictions next time.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Oznog » Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:05 pm

Never test an arrow in slow motion, it'd never pass. Slow motion hits are always much worse.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Arrakis » Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:51 pm

Did that dude just pwn himself in the side of the head trying to block your bolt??
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Oznog » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:12 pm

This is Amtgard... the rules are different in that if an arrow hit the weapon, it destroys the weapon but won't hurt you. That rule goes way back to the beginning. There is no restriction against blocking intentionally. As such it is very common for people to make kamakazie runs at archers with 2 swords, expecting to sacrifice one but still run over the archer. This is legal and we don't really have a sense of "frowning upon" it.

As you can see from the original, he came out of the blue and surprised me and I'm struggling to get the opening for a torso at the last moment, which typically happens as they open up to swing. I was too high to begin with, there was a slight deflection off the sword and thus the gross facial deformation.

The head's not a legal target though so he's still alive. Which presents quite an etiquette problem. You don't shoot a guy taking a moment to recover from getting smacked in the face illegally. But, he's behind me and can pick the moment he's "back" and backstab me, being an archer we're vulnerable to these backstabbing suicide runs. Nor is it really ethical to reload and hover in front of him and say "just lemme know when you're back in play so I can finish you off".
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Arrakis » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:25 pm

Awkward...
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Oznog » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:45 pm

Another funny point- sprinting in at 20 fps (or more) is not unusual.
Take a projectile traveling at 100fps and the new relative velocity is 120fps. But the impact's not just 20% greater because energy is the square of relative velocity so it's 44% greater impact.

The idea of "running into an arrow" may be really hard to see as that significant but that's the way it works. It's the exact same impact situation you'd have with a 44% stronger bow against a static target.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Kegg » Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:04 am

Just read through the whole thread. Good discussion.

As others have said, I have been planning on bringing up new crossbow rules to make them more usable.

I believe that a power stroke x draw poundage is the way to go. I think 500 inch-lbs may be a touch too much. I think something nearer 450 in-lbs is better.

Here is a completely different possible solution.

When checking crossbows, I always shoot them and see how far they fly. If they fly a long ways (high initial velocity), they are too strong. If they only fly 60 feet, when shot at a 45 degree angle, its safe. After that I shoot test the bolts into the back.

Procedure would be something like.
1.) Archer may only use own bolts (bolts are not communal).
2.) Load x-bow with proper bolt.
3.) Aim at 45 degree angle from ground.
4.) Shoot.
5.) If bolt flies more than 20 full paces (60 feet), cross bow is too strong.

The exact distance needs to arrived at by consensus as to what is safe (arrows out of a maximum weight/draw bow will fly about 200 feet).
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Oznog » Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:19 pm

Distance is not a useful measure at all.
Simply building your arrows lighter- which is a really good idea- will increase the speed and range as much as increasing poundage.

And subtle changes in the drag profile and flight dynamics can greatly increase range and accuracy far more than poundage changes.

On the other hand, with the worst high-drag but light designs, giving the checker a legal bow and then one +25% more powerful he may not be able to notice a range difference with the same arrow anyways. Every arrow's going to end up in a different place each time due to slight differences in angle and wind. The drag is way stronger at the higher speeds though so the range increase may be indistinguishable from the normal differences seen in the landing spot.

It might in theory be useful if you had a standard-weight test projectile that was designed as a more aerodynamic thing. Like not foam but a smaller, denser weight on the end. That could render aerodynamic losses and wind influences negligible. It still becomes real particular about the exact angle it's shot at though.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby debuenzo » Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:35 pm

i think checking it on a case by case basis is the way to go, especially with the small number of crossbows.

Perhaps we can create a "rule" but have it as a working rule that can be ultimately decided by the head weapons checkers.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Kegg » Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:40 pm

Oznog, I agree that the power stroke x weight is probably preferable (most likely around 450 in-lbs).

With that said, range is not a bad alternative metric. I don't care if arrows end up at different places every time. As long as no arrow goes long (past the maximum distance). A 25% increase in energy will have an obvious impact on range. As far as having a high initial drag, it won't matter. At the power level we are talking (half-draw), the drag is very small. I have shot Belegarth arrows out of recurve and long bows with draws from 20 lbs to 90 lbs in 5 lb increments. The maximum range of the arrow stops seriously increasing around a 50lb draw. Past that the foam collapses and acts as an air break (high drag). At half draw on a Belegarth arrow, the effect of drag is not significant. If drag is an issue, the crossbow already is too strong.

And yes, I am considering the compounding effect of low drag arrows + flight characteristics + stroke weight. Setting the limit with crappy gear, may allow the limit to be too high. I shoot a bow very akin to a horse bow (high recurve with limbs that unstack, short distance between string and bow when unpulled, optimal arrows). My bow and arrows fly faster and farther than probably any other in the sport. The difference is that I have complete control over how much power I put into the shot. At 25 feet, I can still choose to take a little off the shot if shooting at a head. With a crossbow, there is only one level of shot. Therefore it needs to be set so as not to injure, even at 5 feet, even directly into the face. That's why I tested the crossbow at Octoberfest by taking a shot to the face.

Assuming that the stroke times weight method is adopted, that total power (inch-lbs) that we will allow needs to be set. The distance of flight is an excellent metric to set that value at the right level.

The whole purpose of the half draw rule is so a fighter does not completely rock someones world when you shoot them in the face at 10 feet. It's just a matter of determining what that inch poundage is.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Arrakis » Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:15 pm

debuenzo wrote:i think checking it on a case by case basis is the way to go, especially with the small number of crossbows.

Perhaps we can create a "rule" but have it as a working rule that can be ultimately decided by the head weapons checkers.



YES.

Rule Proposal: Addition to the current crossbow rules:

X.Y.Z - The head herald may chose to allow other crossbows that do not meet the specifications indicated in this section at his sole discretion.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Oznog » Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:11 pm

Kegg wrote:As far as having a high initial drag, it won't matter. At the power level we are talking (half-draw), the drag is very small.... If drag is an issue, the crossbow already is too strong.


Speaking as the guy who's done a lot of crossbow work... no. Not even close. Aerodynamics is still VERY important. And it's not just a matter of simple drag, an arrow has some complex aerodynamics that steer it. If you have a design that goes into point-planing mode, you can gain a crazy amount of range. I've build point-planing heads by accident.

When you change density altitude the range will change. Differences in air temp from 65F to 100F makes over 2,000ft of difference in DA even when barometric pressure is the same. Back when we had Clan at Atkins Meadow, that place was over 9000ft and I was making arrow shots that went so far when they hit there was a very noticeable delay between when you'd see it hit and when you'd hear the hit.

But anyways the bottom line is you set the bar with one standard and someone can bring out draggy, heavy, dive-prone arrows (yeah I've had designs that dive) and could probably meet a range standard with a bow of twice the safe strength that would take your head off at close range.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Forkbeard » Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:16 pm

Ozong Wrote:::::::This is Amtgard... the rules are different in that if an arrow hit the weapon, it destroys the weapon but won't hurt you. That rule goes way back to the beginning. There is no restriction against blocking intentionally. As such it is very common for people to make kamakazie runs at archers with 2 swords, expecting to sacrifice one but still run over the archer. This is legal and we don't really have a sense of "frowning upon" it.

As you can see from the original, he came out of the blue and surprised me and I'm struggling to get the opening for a torso at the last moment, which typically happens as they open up to swing. I was too high to begin with, there was a slight deflection off the sword and thus the gross facial deformation.

The head's not a legal target though so he's still alive. Which presents quite an etiquette problem. You don't shoot a guy taking a moment to recover from getting smacked in the face illegally. But, he's behind me and can pick the moment he's "back" and backstab me, being an archer we're vulnerable to these backstabbing suicide runs. Nor is it really ethical to reload and hover in front of him and say "just lemme know when you're back in play so I can finish you off".:::::(sorry, the bottun aren't working for me today.
I wouls like to digress for a moment.
This is why I don't like amtgard combat. This scenario is rediculas and should never happen. I has happened at every amtgard event or practice I have ever attended where there were missle weapons in play. Lame.
Another lame point is just as lame is the concept of the head not being a legal target area for arrows. Since in EVERY battle some one gets hit in the head at least by a graise, the head should be legal and arrows should be made safe to hit it. Otherwise your just stroking yourselves for safety's sake.

Yet another lame * idea is the idea that an arrow would destroy a weapon. C'mon, thats just stupid.
Anyway, thats my 2 bits on amt-archery.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Oznog » Fri Nov 14, 2008 4:28 pm

Yeah I agree with the weirdness on destroying weapons. It goes back to the original rules set and has basically "always been that way", but AFAIK it wasn't written to allow people to block with the weapon like that, this was supposed to be the penalty. It wasn't because they thought arrows would actually snap swords or poles on impact. The thing is people don't want to get into a big thought process over where the arrow might have gone and/or let the archer call the shots on people so this was the compromise.

Yeah it's kind of odd (and dumb) but the game does flow fairly uninterrupted. Also, there is one benefit- sometimes you get a guy well hidden behind his shield but leaving his sword out. It's a barrel of laughs to pick it off. You stick it out, you're losing it. Actually there are several effects in Amtgard that make shooting them fairly pointless- Stoneskins and Protection from Projectiles are the big ones. In this case shooting the weapons can be an effective strategy.
Last edited by Oznog on Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Elebrim » Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:07 pm

Arrakis wrote:
debuenzo wrote:i think checking it on a case by case basis is the way to go, especially with the small number of crossbows.

Perhaps we can create a "rule" but have it as a working rule that can be ultimately decided by the head weapons checkers.

YES.

Rule Proposal: Addition to the current crossbow rules:

X.Y.Z - The head herald may chose to allow other crossbows that do not meet the specifications indicated in this section at his sole discretion.

This rule suggestion is a bad idea. Ideally, weapons checkers already have the power to pass said crossbow if they think it is safe or worth testing at practices; that should be the testing ground, especially in areas where realms are within driving distance and it can be tested at multiple places. But this rule creates a completely variable standard. What is passed at one event may not pass at the next, which may pass at the next, which may not pass at the next...

I can completely see someone side-stepping a herald who said "No" and going to another one like a little kid bouncing between parents. "They sent me over here for your approval, so it's safe, right?" Heralds and weapons-checkers have to be able to do their jobs without having their authority undercut.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Arrakis » Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:59 pm

Elebrim wrote:
Arrakis wrote:X.Y.Z - The head herald may chose to allow other crossbows that do not meet the specifications indicated in this section at his sole discretion.


Emphasis on HEAD Herald (Marshal, really) having sole authority.

Shrug. It was an idea.
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby debuenzo » Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:58 pm

This rule suggestion is a bad idea. Ideally, weapons checkers already have the power to pass said crossbow if they think it is safe or worth testing at practices; that should be the testing ground, especially in areas where realms are within driving distance and it can be tested at multiple places. But this rule creates a completely variable standard. What is passed at one event may not pass at the next, which may pass at the next, which may not pass at the next...


i've had numerous weapons pass at one event and fail at others...
i've had weapons with the same construction at events...some passed...some didn't (with the SAME construction...at the SAME event)

i think that leaving it up to the people in charge will work....granted, people might try to maneuver around wep checkers to get it passed, but this happens with other weapons as well....that will never change

if we feel that all of our weapons checkers are competent and keep safety in mind, then an unsafe weapon or crossbow SHOULD NOT get onto the field...no matter how much people complain or try to weasel something onto the field
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Re: Crossbow Question

Postby Elebrim » Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:48 pm

debuenzo wrote:i've had numerous weapons pass at one event and fail at others...
i've had weapons with the same construction at events...some passed...some didn't (with the SAME construction...at the SAME event)

i think that leaving it up to the people in charge will work....granted, people might try to maneuver around wep checkers to get it passed, but this happens with other weapons as well....that will never change


True, but I feel that the weapon disparity with melee is more feasible than with bows, and most weapon-checkers I have worked with are more than happy to re-check and ask for second opinions on more flexible standards ("hits too hard" is one good example). But some rules are firm; a pommell passing through a 2" hole is firm. Similarly, if a bow draws at 36 lbs. it will never pass. Crossbows as launching devices have to be held to the same firm standards, and inch-pound limits provide that standard.
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