Crossbow Question

[Soo Ma Tai]

Wow Angmarth, that is a lot more math than I want to do, but I can't see any miss-calculations in it. Your idea of a 14" max draw and a 50# draw weight seems very useable.

[Arrakis]

The current eventing crossbow rules, near as I can tell, are basically show up with it and give it to the testers, stand around and be helpful if they ask questions and volunteer to be shot in the face with it at 10'.

If they decide that they think it's safe, they'll pass it.

[Oznog]

Well, you're on the right track with those observations. Neat. There are 2 factors you have not taken into account though.

Crossbow shafts do weigh about half what an arrow shaft does, how much % that reduces total weight depends on the ratio of head weight to shaft weight but 30% is reasonable. That does result in it shooting faster for a given energy.

BUT, here's the neat thing: Halving your shaft mass makes the arrow much safer. Think about it. The shaft kinetic energy is the whole problem. Without a shaft, we have a foam ball flying at 100fps+ and you wouldn't even need a core and a penny if there wasn't a shaft KE problem. So, you will find that for a given head design the lighter crossbow bolt will strike much softer at any given speed. For a given total kinetic energy, the crossbow bolt will be traveling faster yet strike softer.

The other thing is that I listed a bunch of testing data here: http://board.belegarth.com/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=26058&p=354194&hilit=crossbow+20ft#p354194

There are 2 interesting things there to sum up. One, you can SEE that putting a fullsized arrow in the crossbow (yeah you can do that) and hitting something at pointblank range is less velocity than the arrow has at 20ft from a fulldrawn handbow, which is your established legal standard of "safe", right? So this isn't even apples-and-oranges at this point, but that's even before factoring in that a crossbow bolt with have half the shaft mass anyways.

Second, I didn't get into it too much but I noted that my design, despite being a fiberglass recurve which I believe is about as efficient as it's gonna get, is still significantly less efficient than a bow. And the stuff people most make with fiberglass flats- or wood- isn't going to compete with that for efficiency.

[Davit]

Holy crap Angmarth, something that will keep things simple and easy, yet make the people (and yes I am one) who want to see more X-bows out on the field happy(ier?). I like this and it's something I will fully support and try to get my realm to say the same thing if a rule such as that is passed.

[Kyrian]

So, using Angmarth's calculations, the BoW might look something like this:

1.4.8.2. The maximum poundage allowed on a bow is 35 lbs pull at 28 inches of draw.
1.4.8.3. The maximum poundage allowed on a crossbow is 50 lbs at 14 inches draw.

I don't think it gets much simpler than that.

[Oznog]

1.4.8.3. The maximum poundage allowed on a crossbow is 50 lbs at 14 inches draw.

I don't think it gets much simpler than that.

Well, it seems simple on the surface except that:
1. It's not specifying power in a particularly specific way. You go to an SCA maker and they may make a repro with an 8" power stroke, which would score about 25% too high by that method. They'd have to reduce the ip by 20% below the intended point to make it pass and IMHO that's not workable. Basically that would be the same as having a wording that somehow conflicted with a period bow design such that you'd have to reduce it from 35# to 28# to make it pass. That's a huge penalty for no real reason.

2. You're gonna have to get into an explanation of how to measure "draw" on a crossbow. I don't even know what to tell ya there, draw has no established meaning for a crossbow. If you tried to go with the "furtherst part of the front of the bow" concept then you'd probably have to measure any bits of wood past the bow itself and even the stirrup (if present). Like the Wham-O Powermaster here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Old-Powermaster-Crossbow_W0QQitemZ170270949821QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20081013?IMSfp=TL081013102008r3901
If you look close at the pics, there is a shelf past the bow's binding area.
So I'm saying this "simplified" wording won't work, you're gonna have to include a detailed description of how to measure "draw". And it would be best not to call it "draw" at all because then people would cite it as the way to measure handbow draw or at least get confused when remembering how this goes. That's where it makes no sense to make up new measures when "power stroke" is already known to the world as a real, defined term, AND is totally what you're looking for to limit the power whereas "draw" (to the prod or the front of the bow or... whatever) is not going to be accurate because it includes variations in brace height.

For that matter, the lawyer in me sees one other flaw in this wording. It says the maximum poundage is 50# at 14". Technically, this does NOT limit your crossbow from drawing 55# * 15" as long as it is only 50# when drawn to the 14" point.

The SCA didn't have any trouble implementing the inchpounds rule BTW. I'm just sayin. It's not rocket science to implement that limitation. I'm on their missile combat mailing list and they go anal (or nearly insane) about a lot of things on archery rules, I've seen like a hundred different complaints show up, but I've never seen them say that measuring inchpounds was impractical or even a known problem.

[Big King Jimmy]

Your missing something key: Belegarth is used to bows, and it would be implemented the same as our rules for bows.

A crossbow designed for maximum power would have to have 14" from the front of the bow (as in the bow part of the crossbow) to the latch the holds the string, a bow tester is applied there. Over 50#, bam, fail.

If the crossbow were designed to draw less than 14", awesome but we'd still measure it at 14", so you wouldn't get your full 50#. If it was designed to draw further, fail.

[Rasheab]

Is there a reason why your picking 14" Jimmy, or is it just an arbitary number?

Granted the 14" #50 idea is indeed simple. But is it really that much harder to have a simple chart printed out on a piece of paper, and a measuring tape? Round up to the nearest 1/2".

[Oznog]

And this is a typical crossbow, where the idea of "draw" falls apart completely:

(New World Arbaltest, SCA producer)

The foot stirrup is technically "part of the bow". Even if you excluded it, your "draw" would include add 2" of wood on there that have nothing at all to do with the bow's draw. Other bows may have 1" of binding or no binding at all:


That wording becomes pretty much nonsense at that point. You'd be saying the crossbow is above the legal power limits because of a block of wood in front of the bow.

And I don't get it: you have to measure something either way, right? So measure the string travel (power stroke) which is what most directly relates to power and thus safety. Even if you are die-hard against a chart, you could say 10.5" max power stroke. Power stroke is easy to measure. When you've got "stuff" in front... someone may even put padding on the bow for safety... not only is it a wildly inaccurate measure because it's including features irrelevant to the power question, you can spend all day arguing where the bow's "front" actually is.

[Big King Jimmy]

hence why I say the bow part of the crossbow. In the first example it would be 2" behind the front of the stock. The next picture would be the front of the bow.

I guess the only other word I can come up with is the front most part of the limbs.

I understand what you're saying about power stroke though, and that would be a better way to test it.

And you have to understand, a typical national event weapons check takes 1-2 hours at the beginning of each day at an event. Anything that adds to that time will get knocked down in war council. And referencing a chart is an example of this. Also it means having the chart at weapons check, which isn't always easy either. All of our rules are fairly easily memorized by an expirenced weapons checker, a whole chart is not easily memorized.

So, instead of draw, if we want something akin to what we had before, how many lbs do we want at a, say, 12 inch power stroke? or 14? I mean at some point a number must be picked and we just stop there and roll. So, pick a typical power stroke, find a comfortable poundage at that stroke, make a rule.

[Arrakis]

Oznog:

IF you had to pick just ONE single power stroke length as the max power stroke for Belegarth crossbows AND just one maximum poundage of draw weight, what two numbers would YOU pick?

Just give us something average-ish that'll let people build a nice max-power crossbow or a better-than-we-have-now underpower hand crossbow and we'll be happy critters, at least for a couple of years.

[Forkbeard]

Ozong, your making this more complex than it really is.
What we need is some prototypes.
I'll try to make one by Xmas.
FB

[Olos]

I see no reason why crossbows could not be measured by power stroke length. Doing this would be impractical with bows for several reasons. However, it would be really easy to define it as the distance between the string's at rest position and the catch point it is on when drawn.

If you measure by the front of the bow part even, you still have massive differences due to a longer or shorter brace height. This makes a huge difference when you are trying to define something by inch pounds as you are with crossbows. I like having a chart, giving a max draw weight for different power stroke lenghts, rounded up to the next half inch, or even quarter inch if you want to be pretty technical. It'd be pretty easy to just have the checkers print out the sheet of paper and bring it in, and all you'd need is a ruler or tape measure and the standard scale, both of which should already be at weapons check.

[Big King Jimmy]

It'd be pretty easy to just have the checkers print out the sheet of paper and bring it in

No, it really really wouldn't.

If I've learned anything about Belegarth, it's that you should definetly follow the rule of "whatever can go wrong, will go wrong." People will forget this chart, all the time. This leaves crossbow users up **** creek.

[Davit]

Someone recently brought this situation up, and yes I know it's unlikely, but so is a knock to the eye, a pommel to the eye and some other situations we talk about in concern of safety.
Someone ditches their x-bow to grapple someone. Random person A is running from their opponents, doesn't notice a drawn x-bow sitting on the ground, steps on the x-bow which goes off. Random person A's ankle breaks because of our newer higher poundage rules.
Granted I'm not a bone Dr. nor do I have the desire to sit down and calculate how many pounds of pressure would be exerted by a 50 pound at 14 inch x-bow, how many pounds of pressure it would take to break an ankle, the different ways it could rebound off the ground or someone's foot, etc.. If you want too, by all means go ahead, but I think it could be a valid safety concern.

[Peregrine]

So, using Angmarth's calculations, the BoW might look something like this:

1.4.8.2. The maximum poundage allowed on a bow is 35 lbs pull at 28 inches of draw.
1.4.8.3. The maximum poundage allowed on a crossbow is 50 lbs at 14 inches draw.

I don't think it gets much simpler than that.

I think this is the best solution. It is easy to use and should not hold up weapons check.

[Big King Jimmy]

Someone recently brought this situation up, and yes I know it's unlikely, but so is a knock to the eye, a pommel to the eye and some other situations we talk about in concern of safety.
Someone ditches their x-bow to grapple someone. Random person A is running from their opponents, doesn't notice a drawn x-bow sitting on the ground, steps on the x-bow which goes off. Random person A's ankle breaks because of our newer higher poundage rules.
Granted I'm not a bone Dr. nor do I have the desire to sit down and calculate how many pounds of pressure would be exerted by a 50 pound at 14 inch x-bow, how many pounds of pressure it would take to break an ankle, the different ways it could rebound off the ground or someone's foot, etc.. If you want too, by all means go ahead, but I think it could be a valid safety concern.

If all I get from a full day of bow slap from my 35lbs pull bow, I don't think 15 more lbs will break my ankle. I mean I've fired bows of higher poundages, and it's not THAT bad. Someone is being a carebear.

[Forkbeard]

Davit, this image of a xbow breaking someones ankle when it goes off is total * brought up god knows how long ago in one of these threads about xbows. It could not ever happen to anyone who is healthy enough to fight.
MAYBE if you were some how soooo calcium deficient that your bones were this fragile it could. But, you wouldn't be able to walk, so the likelyhood of your tripping over a xbow while running is pretty small.
FB

[Angmarth]

Oznog, my 50lbs and 14inch draw are the maximums for each. While it isn't a perfect system, it is simple and easy to measure. Yes it will eliminate many crossbows because of draw length, but ease of weapons check is the important thing here.

EDIT: After looking at some of the last posts I wanted to mention that you would measure the DRAW from the front of the BOW part to the trigger mechanism, in order to mimic the same measurement from a bow.

EDIT 2: You would word the rule like this: The maximum poundage on a crossbow is 50lbs. The maximum draw length on a crossbow is 14".

[Peregrine]

. Yes it will eliminate many crossbows because of draw length, but ease of weapons check is the important thing here.
.

and you will see more crossbows then you do now.

[Arrakis]

I'd just write:

RULE #.#.# - The maximum poundage on a crossbow is 50lbs. The maximum power stroke on a crossbow is 10".
RULE #.#.# (under the Definitions heading) - Power stroke of a crossbow is measured from the string at rest to the catch.


We have definitions for all sorts of other stuff. Simple enough to formally define power stroke.


And why would a rule specifying a huge max draw length like 14" eliminate crossbows? You mean eliminate their effectiveness?

[Angmarth]

It would only eliminate crossbows with a draw greater than 14". In reality, there is probably a draw length to poundage ratio that performs best with our padded projectiles. Like I stated before, for my simple math, I equate the "bow" part of the crossbow to an actual bow for purposes of what should be considered draw length for this argument. When you approach it that way it becomes much clearer to the weapons checker.

[Big King Jimmy]

Angmarth, I don't think "From where the string rests to the latch" is any LESS clear, and as oznog has pointed out it makes much more sense.

[Angmarth]

Touche.

[Rasheab]

(If a chart were to be utilized, then people who wish to have crossbows tested should be smart enough to bring a copy with them, in case something happens to the copy at weapon check. And if they aren't smart enough, to bad, there is no chart, so we can't pass your weapon. Go find a copy of the chart, and we'll test your crossbow.)

Not that I'm 100% hardcore for the chart system (I understand what your saying about weapons check), but people need to take partial responcibility for that type of stuff. I carry a measuring tape and extra cloth tape in my weapon bag. If I had a crossbow, I would add the chart.

[Big King Jimmy]

I would not check a crossbow with a chart someone provided. It's like having a game show contestant give you the answers.

[Rasheab]

Ahh, fair enough. I forgot about "those people." I was being all idealistic and naive there for a minute.

[Big King Jimmy]

Ahh, fair enough. I forgot about "those people." I was being all idealistic and naive there for a minute.

We all make mistakes

[Mekoot Rowan]

It seems like Angmarth's solution of 14" at 50lbs is workable and a * sight better than the way things are now. It keeps things simple for the checkers while improving crossbows by bounds.

It may be that we change things, play by these rules and then revisit them when we find out that they have worked better than we could have forseen.

[Oisin]

Power stroke is a MUCH more accurate and effective measure of the actual power being generated by the crossbow, and is NOT more difficult to calculate. You just measure from a different point that should be very clear and well defined. 50# * 10" max gives us a 500 "# maximum on crossbows which, to my mind, is fairly reasonable.

I see nothing wrong with having a listed inch-pound requirement, since inch pounds is a very, very, very simple calculation (power stroke x draw weight . . . pretty simple, especially considering that I can't imagine there ever being more than a very few xbows at an event). Either of these wordings would be perfectly simple to actually implement:

1.4.8.3. The maximum poundage allowed on a crossbow is 50 lbs draw weight to no more than a 10 inch power stroke, measured from the string's at rest position to its * position.

(note that by this rule, the 50 lbs max is measured to the actual power stroke, not to the hypothetical 10" maximum . . . so, a 50# * 8" weight is just as acceptable as a 50# at 10" weight)

--or--

1.4.8.3. A crossbow may not draw more than 500 inch pounds. This is calculated by multiplying the bow's draw weight (measured to the * position) by its power stroke, measured from the string's at rest position to its * position, rounded up to the next whole inch.

This doesn't require a chart, it doesn't require you to print anything out, it only requires a roughly 2nd or 3rd grade understanding of simple arithmetic, without any need to multiply fractions. Also, it means that crossbows with less than a 10" power stroke don't have to sacrifice a significant amount of power.

The choice between the two would be between slightly more simplicity and a good deal more flexibility . . . to be honest, I think that the gain in flexibility more than offsets the loss in simplicity. And even if you are completely mathematically challenged, every cell phone has a calculator on it, and I guarantee you that someone at check is going to have a cell phone on them.

It's really, really not hard, people.

[Big King Jimmy]

I'm not saying it isn't hard. I'm saying it won't pass War Council, so it's useless.

[Oisin]

Which is really, really **** annoying. Our rules have not changed one word since 2005 (since the changes to the minimum weights and lengths for blue and red weapons), and have only barely changed since they were first written in, what, 2001? 2002? There are some areas that could do with some real improvement, even some areas that are fairly noncontroversial that could be significantly improved, but nothing ever happens.

Also, for the record, I believe that Amtgard now allows 450 inch pounds for their xbows, and Dag allows 35 # * 12", or effectively 420 inch pounds.

[Black Cat]

A set limit of a 10-inch power stroke at 50 pounds could pass as long as such a measurement isn't seen as being too powerful. That would be easier to measure than draw length on a crossbow, as the string will be helping you measure the crossbow instead of getting in the way.

I don't see anything more complicated than that passing though. I've been on the boards long enough to know that most people here prefer simplicity and aren't fond of having to do math problems of any complexity just to participate in Belegarth. Many people value their ability to get drunk off their keester one night and still be able to attend to weapon check the next morning a little too much.


Edit: I actually thought about it, and power stroke or even draw length wouldn't work. If 50# is acceptable at 10" power stroke, then what is acceptable at 8"? Nobody would know without having to do that dreaded math while suffering from a hangover.

The whole reason a set draw length works with bows is because all bows capable of drawing out to or past 28 inches can be drawn that exact distance for testing purposes without causing damage or excessive wear to the bow, whether that bow was designed to draw at 28 inches or not. A crossbow draws at a specific draw length because the string has to be drawn into a groove or stop on the crossbow, which makes the crossbow draw at a predetermined length.

[Arrakis]

BC, if you have a very, very small handbow with only a 24" spar, say, and you can only pull it maybe 20 inches, it still can only be a maximum of 35# of draw.

That would be the case here, where all stroke lengths would have a maximum weight of 50# and the maximum stroke would be 10 inches.

[Oisin]

How about this . . . means that the person with the crossbow has to do all the math ahead of time, the heralds just have to measure the power stroke and check the draw weight.

"1.4.8.3. A crossbow may not draw more than 500 inch pounds. This is calculated by multiplying the bow's draw weight (measured to the * position) by its power stroke, measured from the string's at rest position to its * position, rounded up to the next whole inch.
1.4.8.3.1. All crossbows must be marked in a permanent, obvious and legible fashion showing the following attributes:

Power Stroke, rounded up to the next full inch
Maximum allowable draw weight at that power stroke, rounded down to the next whole pound
Total maximum inch pounds generated by that power stroke and draw weight"

Or something very similar.

So, if you want to use a crossbow, you have to bring it to weapons check marked like this, in a medium like paint or sharpie, NOT just a piece of paper taped to the side:

12 inch power stroke (even if the actual power stroke was only 11.5")
41 lb maximum draw weight
492 inch pounds

And then when it gets to weapons check, if either of those two measurements are exceeded, it fails. If not (if, for example, the crossbow draws 38 lbs * 11.5 inches =437 inch pounds), it passes and there is no math involved, and no checking of charts. The necessary checking information is printed on the weapon itself, and if it isn't, you fail the bow until it is. There, simple, no math to be done at weapons check.

[Black Cat]

BC, if you have a very, very small handbow with only a 24" spar, say, and you can only pull it maybe 20 inches, it still can only be a maximum of 35# of draw.

That would be the case here, where all stroke lengths would have a maximum weight of 50# and the maximum stroke would be 10 inches.

I see what you are saying now. I must have overlooked that part of Oisin's post. The poundage on crossbows would be limited to 50 pounds regardless of the power stroke, and the longest power stroke that would pass inspection would be 10 inches.

That should work, since crossbows cannot be shot past their full draw because there is nothing past the stop to hold the string and crossbows are not designed to be shot by hand.

[Oznog]

Also, for the record, I believe that Amtgard now allows 450 inch pounds for their xbows, and Dag allows 35 # * 12", or effectively 420 inch pounds.

I discussed the issue at length with Dag people on their forum. They ran into a similar roadblock at their rules council meeting, but they said they were still open to xbow rules and told the fellow to give them a fixed limit. Unfortunately the number he threw out there was pretty whacked. It was done without any examples or experience with any crossbows and he was basically forced to "pull a number out of his *" as we say. So if you ask me it's still broken. I would not recommend a 35# crossbow for LARPing.

I had a lot to do with the Amtgard rule. I'd been working with several crossbow designs up to that point and had been playing with them on a fairly "gray area" basis for some time. I'd been overcautious with a 385ip but people weren't noticing it fairly regularly.

I had like 3 different strengths of prods and dealt with Brennon who doesn't especially like me but he doesn't like anybody really, just ask him. I had to put away my high tech MS2K arrows there because it's not what other people would bring out, and used a construction with an aluminum shaft and more common foams. He shot me pointblank in the back of the head there. Stung but not unlike getting hit with anything else, that was more of an initial "prove your commitment to your belief" thing rather than a controlled test. Plus I think he really just wanted to shoot me in the head. So after that we took a bunch of shots and the 450ip was deemed "good", that was the strongest one I had actually.

That was before I had gone out and taken measurements showing how fast a fulldrawn handbow arrow was going at 20ft for comparison.

I guess my point there is that Dag's rule right now isn't a very good example. More of a situation you'd want to avoid IMHO. A 12" power stroke COULD be build in theory, but the 8"-10" range is more realistic, and for that 35# is sorely underpowered.

I don't know how Belegarth rulesmaking really goes but in my experience starting with a less-than-ideal rule because it's "better than it was" is still a problem because it inhibits the development of better rules, where the parties that be may respond like "we already 'fixed' that and gave you your rule so don't keep coming back to it" as if you're demanding a recount or something. So I'd suggest it's something you wanna get right the first time as opposed to seeing it as a stepping stone to "warm them up" to a more proper rule in a little while.

[Juicer]

How about this . . . means that the person with the crossbow has to do all the math ahead of time, the heralds just have to measure the power stroke and check the draw weight.

"1.4.8.3. A crossbow may not draw more than 500 inch pounds. This is calculated by multiplying the bow's draw weight (measured to the * position) by its power stroke, measured from the string's at rest position to its * position, rounded up to the next whole inch.
1.4.8.3.1. All crossbows must be marked in a permanent, obvious and legible fashion showing the following attributes:

Power Stroke, rounded up to the next full inch
Maximum allowable draw weight at that power stroke, rounded down to the next whole pound
Total maximum inch pounds generated by that power stroke and draw weight"

Or something very similar.

So, if you want to use a crossbow, you have to bring it to weapons check marked like this, in a medium like paint or sharpie, NOT just a piece of paper taped to the side:

12 inch power stroke (even if the actual power stroke was only 11.5")
41 lb maximum draw weight
492 inch pounds

And then when it gets to weapons check, if either of those two measurements are exceeded, it fails. If not (if, for example, the crossbow draws 38 lbs * 11.5 inches =437 inch pounds), it passes and there is no math involved, and no checking of charts. The necessary checking information is printed on the weapon itself, and if it isn't, you fail the bow until it is. There, simple, no math to be done at weapons check.

Personally, I'm a fan of this wording. Any direct opposition to it?

[Big King Jimmy]

On the side of my crossbow:

14" power stroke
45 lbs
500 IPS

[Oisin]

If somebody brings up a bow marked for 10 lbs over the allowed draw weight at their power stroke, it should be fairly obvious. If there's any doubt whether or not the inch/pounds are calculated correctly, you still have that cell phone in your pocket (or I guarantee that someone within a 15 second walk and conversation will) to calculate it real quick. If any crossbows are brought up to check, and you personally don't feel qualified to check it, send them to a higher-up weapons checker or someone who has been doing things for a while.

If they try and pull **** like that, throw them off the field, don't let them have the bow back for the rest of the event, and enshrine them on these boards as a blatant cheater.

This game is run on an honour system, and we have to give people a certain amount of benefit of the doubt. The rest of our rules are written in a fashion that assume that we are all going to be honest--why should this be any exception? If you still think that people might cheat, add a rule that specifies that the person bringing the crossbow much provide a calculator with which to prove that his measurements are correct, although I think that's a bit silly.

If people want to cheat, they will find ways to do it that aren't so obvious. They'll go off the field and switch a different prod (the bow part) into their crossbow, they'll tighten the string, they'll do something. Just like the rare douchebags who tighten the strings of their normal bows, or take the pass sticker off one weapon and put it on another that is not legal.

And anyway, that's why the markings are required to be permanent--because people at local practices will usually catch stuff like that and put an end to it before it gets to events.

[Big King Jimmy]

I just think that allowing people to do the math themselves and mark their weapons themselves is kind of asking for trouble. I mean I know we check the basis for the math, but if we don't check the math then we aren't checking the weapon.

[Black Cat]

Jimmy is right. In order to make sure that every crossbow that ends up on the field is safe, all crossbows have to be checked for that stuff at weapon check, not by the owner. We have a rule in Aquilonia that a fighter does not check his/her own weapons. There is a reason for that. I also want to be able to have a more decorative/stylized crossbow, and I don't want to ruin it with a sharpie.

I think we should just go with the 50# maximum regardless of power stroke. Just limit the maximum power stroke you are allowed to have on a crossbow to 10" and that will prevent any crossbow from exceeding 500 inch-pounds. That will make weapons check simple and crossbows in Belegarth will be more realistic since larger crossbows will be more powerful than smaller crossbows.

It's either that, or we can propose something more complicated that weapon checkers of most realms aren't going to want to deal with. Unless anyone has a better idea.

[Oisin]

All right, you've got a point. I still think we should allow more flexibility, though.

How about codifying in the rules the specific max draw weight allowed at each of a range of power strokes, and require that the appropriate line from the rule book be written on the crossbow verbatim?

This is still just brainstorming here, I'm trying to come up with something that works but doesn't sacrifice anything.

"1.4.8.3. A crossbow may not draw more than 500 inch pounds. This is calculated by multiplying the bow's draw weight (measured to the * position) by its power stroke, measured from the string's at rest position to its * position, rounded up to the next whole inch.
1.4.8.3.1. No crossbow may have a power stroke lower than 8 inches or higher than 14. (somewhat arbitrary, but you'll see why in a moment.)
1.4.8.3.2. All crossbows must be marked in a permanent, obvious and legible fashion with one of the following lines as appropriate to the power stroke of the bow, rounded up to the next full inch:
1.4.8.3.2.1. 62 lbs max at 8 inch power stroke
1.4.8.3.2.2. 55 lbs max at 9 inch power stroke
1.4.8.3.2.3. 50 lbs max at 10 inch power stroke
1.4.8.3.2.4. 45 lbs max at 11 inch power stroke
1.4.8.3.2.5. 41 lbs max at 12 inch power stroke
1.4.8.3.2.6. 38 lbs max at 13 inch power stroke
1.4.8.3.2.6. 35 lbs max at 14 inch power stroke"

That way, the math is even already done for them in the rulebook, and it's even easier to tell if they're trying to cheat.

Or, just specify max draw weight at 8 inches, 10 inches and 12 inches. Still a fair bit of flexibility, but less complicated.

"1.4.8.3. A crossbow may not draw more than 500 inch pounds. This is calculated by multiplying the bow's draw weight (measured to the * position) by its power stroke, measured from the string's at rest position to its * position, rounded up to the next whole inch.
1.4.8.3.1. Acceptable measures are 60 lbs draw weight at 8 inch or less power stroke, 50 lbs draw weight at a 10 inch or less power stroke, or 40 lbs at a 12 inch or less power stroke.
1.4.8.3.2. Heralds or event organizers may, at their sole discretion, approve crossbows of other draw weights and power strokes, so long as the power stroke is always rounded up to the next whole inch, the draw weight is always rounded down to the next whole pound, and the total inch-pounds of force generated do not exceed 500."

I think I like that wording the best so far. It simplifies it for people when it needs to be simple (40 lbs * 12 inches, 50 lbs * 10 inches, 60 lbs * 8 inches is not particularly hard to remember), but allows the possibility for more flexibility as long as it's ok with the people running the event.

Also, I think that a rule should be included banning crossbows with modern pistol grips, but that's a completely separate issue.

Black Cat--Your nice looking fancy crossbow does not have to be sharpied up so it looks nasty. Use paint, do it in a nice caligraphic (or block latin, or etc, whatever you like as long as its legibile) hand, and it can look very nice. A lot of nice, expensive bows are marked in such a fashion.

[Skydd]

I'm still a fan of "The maximum poundage on a crossbow is 50lbs. The maximum Power Stroke on a crossbow is 10".

Those two things are simple to check, no math/memorizing several different measuring standards. It's simple. If you want to get the maximum out of a Bow, make sure it draws a full 35# at 28". If you want to get the maximum out of a Crossbow, make it pull 50# at a Power Stroke of 10".

[Forkbeard]

"Flexible" rules WILL NOT pass WC. I mean c'mon, lets be serious. We have very little chance of getting these rules changed at all. It will never happen if we allow any type of xbow and give the checkers a worksheet to do with each inspection.
There is only going to be 1 kind of xbow with one set of rules.
the 50# * 14" idea is the only one that is going to fly in the end, so lets start applying brain power to that.
Somebody just **** make one for gods sake.
FB

[Arrakis]

Fork, why 50 at 14?


50 at 10 sounded better.

[Black Cat]

Fork, why 50 at 14?


50 at 10 sounded better.

Yeah. If I understand this correctly, it was supposed to be 10" from the string to the catch.

[Oznog]

Silly question, but a pocket calculator is like $2 now and comes on a keychain. How about you place the onus on the player with a crossbow to provide a calculator? (and perhaps a ruler)

You might have 4 people show up with crossbows. Any one of them has a calc and feels like sharing that's great. If they're all forgetful on this point and assumed someone else would have one, then... well, if the checker wants to accept long division (or multiplication) on paper that's great or maybe he won't so nobody gets their weapons checked and that's their lesson for the day- Be Prepared.

This seems very reasonable to me. If you're gonna spend the bucks on a crossbow just bring a cheap calc so it can be checked. It does not require any particular degree of thought on the part of the checker. It leaves no room for the player to "fudge", as someone feared could happen if players were to provide the calculated value for their own bow to the checker. You're not going to hack a calculator to make it read wrong.

I guess you could make up a fake ruler in theory but let's be realistic, this isn't a realistic problem is it? You'd notice a hand-drawn scale was hand-drawn and you could only make the inches a little bit larger before someone is gonna notice and call you a cheater anyways. You could say factory-made rulers only too, people would just cut off the last ft of a $.99 tape measure and leave it in the bottom of the quiver so it'll be there when you need it. Done.

1.4.8.3. A crossbow may not draw more than 500 inch pounds. Inch pounds is defined as the bow's draw weight multiplied by its power stroke, measured from the string's rest position to its fully drawn position.
1.4.8.3.1 Players presenting crossbows for checking should be prepared to provide a calculator and tape measure to ensure their equipment can be checked.

No chart needed, one number to remember so that shouldn't really require a paper copy of the rule in hand, and there's no problem of "resolution" in the chart being too coarse.

You'd want a "should", not "must" in that second part. If you've got 2 guys with crossbows you're not supposed to say one guy doesn't get to play just because he doesn't have his own and borrowed the calc from the other guy. And I wouldn't necessarily say a calculator is essential- if it is 9.75" and 50lbs, well, duh it would need to be 10" to be 500ip so I can already tell you that's ok for sure even though I don't know its exact ip.

Doesn't this pretty much solve everything?

[Oznog]

Actually I have seen some aluminum-prod crossbows with scary tips to them. Not a deliberate spike, but like the one I have here is a 0.186" thick aluminum and they ground the tip into like 0.186"x0.25" rectangle.

The things that "up" this issue from handbows are that the prod may be metal, it's held horizontally at body level (I've bumped into people with the bow inside a crowded front line, sure) and it's got the mass and support of the stock there.

I wouldn't recommend requiring them to meet weapon standards or anything. Large tips are unnecessary, detrimental to bow efficiency, and fairly easy to rip off. Plus really they look dumb as hell. I use a construction with a plastic limbtip myself.

So you might wanna do is like:

1.4.8.3.2 Crossbows must meet the "penny round" standards of 3.1.8.

Actually that's a little lenient, heck the example I just gave that I didn't like would still pass the "penny round" standard. But, it's simple anyways and gives people the idea to look for unsafe surfaces.

You might pull this:

1.3.2. All non-striking surfaces must be padded adequately to prevent personal injury from incidental contact.

But that could be interpreted wildly, like requiring padding on the entire prod... or the whole stock.

[Turin]

Ok, how about:

"1.4.8.3. The maximum poundage allowed on crossbow 50lbs at 10 inches of power stroke.
1.4.8.3.1. Heralds or event organizers may, at their sole discretion, approve crossbows of other draw weights and power strokes, so long as the total force generated does not exceed 500 inch-pounds.
1.4.8.3.2. Total force for a crossbow is calculated by multiplying the bow's draw weight (measured to the * position) by its power stroke, measured from the string's at rest position to its * position.
1.4.8.3.2.1. Power stroke is always rounded up to the next whole inch.
1.4.8.3.2.2. Draw weight is always rounded down to the next whole pound."