My ideal fighting system

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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Oisin » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:43 pm

As usual, Magnus raises good points regarding the definition of plate, but I think that regardless of the definition, the potential for active blocking of arrows (coming at yourself or your buddies) with a single plate armoured limb is a more important concern.

Actually, not that I think about it, armour giving even a single hit of protection against arrows (note I say arrows, and purposely disinclude javelins) could pose a significant safety hazard, in that there will be some individuals who use that point of protection to actively block, swat or try to catch arrows. Those of you who have seen the pictures of arrow knocks embedded in shields should realize the danger that this could pose if swatting at arrows became a widespread practice . . . and then what's next, require some sort of severe anti-penetration device that would gimp arrowdynamics (pun completely unintentional, I swear :angel: ) even more than they already are?

Allowing any protection against arrows besides shields and helmets just seems unsafe to me. Gimping helmets provides some major playability issues in terms of people realizing they've been hit in the head by a valid projectile (especially against javelins, whose shots can't be called). Plus, as Magnus pointed out, helmets are the LAST piece of armour that arrows are going to penetrate . . . some known historic helmets have been as thick as 3 or even 4 mm of iron, no arrow is going to penetrate that.

This isn't the right solution to the problems at hand yet, and to be honest, I don't think those problems are nearly as severe as Physic and others make them out to be.

Until there is a distinction made between different types of armour, which considering the conservatism of the War Council is likely never to happen, the protective value of armour should not be increased.
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Cyric » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:49 pm

If we are simplifying the rules, then giving metal armor 2 points and leather 1 point doesn't make sense. Also, what about composite armor? it's needlessly complicated.
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Oisin » Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:51 pm

I agree, Cyric. I would be very strongly against any rule that increased the protective value of any armour, especially by adding a multiple point system.

What I'd be in favor of is some sort of system by which leather armour provides less protection than it does now. The idea of making leather armour provide no protection against single green hits has been raised before on several different forums, and I'd be in favor of a change of about that magnitude.

And, you're right, there are complicating factors (aren't there always?).

Assuming that I had free control over the rules:

In order to count as heavy/metal/whatever you want to call it armour, I'd require that 90% of the surface area be covered by armour grade metal (which I would raise to 18 gauge minimum thickness), and there must be no more than a .5 inch gap between plates or studs. Thus, true plate armours, maille, lamellar, brig, etc count as metal/heavy armour, and everything less counts as less.

I know that'd never pass, though, and I'm even entirely convinced it'd be a good thing if it did.

To be honest, I don't think that the rules are actually overcomplicated. I don't think it's broken now, and have not been convinced that there's anything that really needs fixing, except maybe that any two limbs hurt by any type of damage count towards death. Florentine and red are harder styles to succeed with in a mass melee, but nerfing archery WILL NOT CHANGE THAT AT ALL.

Spearmen (or glaives, but long polearms in general) will still have 2 to 3 times the reach of a guy with a redsword, and if they're protected by their shield wall they're just as hard to reach as the archers are.

In a skirmishing situation, the guys with the swords and boards will still dominate both florentiners and redsworders. It's just the way things are, archery does't change the balance of power, the problem is that red and florentine are weak in mass melee, not that archery is too strong. Archery, sword and board, and polearm (especially spear) are the dominating styles on our battlefields, as they were throughout most of history in infantry combat.
Last edited by Oisin on Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:57 pm

We have already one of the simplest fighting systems in all of medieval sword fighting. As far as I know, the only one more simple than us is the SCA, cause they don't have armor points. Honestly, I think things are fine as they are. I have never had any trouble explaining the rules to any of the new players we have ever had. I just save the more complicated parts for later and start with the simple basics.
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Black Cat » Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:40 pm

Oisin wrote:Actually, not that I think about it, armour giving even a single hit of protection against arrows (note I say arrows, and purposely disinclude javelins) could pose a significant safety hazard, in that there will be some individuals who use that point of protection to actively block, swat or try to catch arrows. Those of you who have seen the pictures of arrow knocks embedded in shields should realize the danger that this could pose if swatting at arrows became a widespread practice . . . and then what's next, require some sort of severe anti-penetration device that would gimp arrowdynamics (pun completely unintentional, I swear :angel: ) even more than they already are?


That is indeed a huge problem. Swatting arrows without an anti-penetration device on the arrow (which gimps arrow performance) is a very unsafe practice. I didn't even think of that. I have however seen the pictures of an arrow getting stuck in a shield before. Someone had such a picture as his avatar not long ago.

Plus, I also forgot about (and just remembered) Magnus of the Red Hand, (or more particularly his fighting style) whom can block arrows reasonably well with a buckler and still effeciently fight with his glaive.

Overall, gimping the effectiveness of arrows against armor doesn't look like the answer for improving the playability of shield-less styles. Too many safety concerns get in the way and shield-users can still pick up the same benefits. Shield users (especially coreless tower shield users) are already powerful enough without armor that can provide a point of protection versus arrows.

Maybe red-users and polearmists should just start wearing bucklers and learn how to use them? Otherwise, I am out of ideas for improving their odds on the field.
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Oisin » Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:45 pm

Black Cat wrote:Maybe red-users and polearmists should just start wearing bucklers and learn how to use them? Otherwise, I am out of ideas for improving their odds on the field.


Truth.

Helmets help too.
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Arrakis » Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:47 pm

Does it have more than 2 points involved, ever? Does it ever talk about "breaking" armor?

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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Rasheab » Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:48 pm

I was leaning more in the idealized direction then simplified (though I don't think it's actually more complicated). Good point though about people using it as an opprotunity to 'block' arrows though. So fair enough.

Does anyone have a link to the arrow nock in shield picture?
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Angmarth » Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:06 pm

IF I were designing it from the ground up, and were trying to keep it ULTIMATELY simple, I would only allow body armor to be made of metal. (Extremities could still use leather.)

Since that is going to eliminate a great deal of really good looking armor (which would personally make me sad), I would compromise to a slightly more complex system. I would do the following things that while more complicated, would make it beneficial to wear metal armor and still retain the ability to use leather.

1) All armor absorbs 1 blow from a hand held weapon, no matter how the blow is delivered
2) 2 handed blows from a great weapon penetrate armor
3) Missiles penetrate leather armor
4) Missiles count as hand held weapons against metal armor
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Kegg » Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:05 pm

I like your system Physic. I really like Angmarth's alternative.

The one down side with nerfing arrows against metal armor though is...

A 5x increase in the number of people I shoot in the face. Why?

I go out of my way to avoid shooting people in the face. Why?
1.) Because no one likes getting shot in the face.
2.) I can get an alternative killing shot in the body if I wait one or two seconds (they open up their shield).

Since there are few helmets, even on fully armored individuals. The only target that is a one shot kill is the face/head (remember if it hits armor and unarmored, it is unarmored - think eyes). At 30 feet I can hit a face 8 out of 10 times in combat.

I am not sure that we want to give such a huge incentive for head shots.
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Arrakis » Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:32 pm

Kegg wrote:I am not sure that we want to give such a huge incentive for head shots.


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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Hatchet » Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:29 am

Maybe red-users and polearmists should just start wearing bucklers and learn how to use them? Otherwise, I am out of ideas for improving their odds on the field.

Allow reds to kill shields in one hit instead of two. In this fashion reds would be more dangerous in mass melee and on the shield line. To balance this you would have to increase weight and length requirements so mini-reds[I've seen them swung ridiculously fast] don't become a bit more powerful. Arrows I don't worry about because, if I see one coming head on I can just move, if I am not paying attention to it, is there really any reason to worry about it?
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Angmarth » Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:02 am

We have been using the light/heavy shield rule for going on 2 years now in Arnor. (1 hit for non-cored shields and light shields, you need to have plywood or tech-ply cores to get 2 hits). It adds some power to great weapons and makes light shield users more cautious.

I beg to differ about how many "face" shots it would increase. I think head shots would increase (shooting from behind), but most of the time faces are the target from the front and shield side as is. If it caused an increase of helmets on the field, that is a good thing. You would see more heavy leather masks at least for arrow protection, which I think makes our group look better anyway.
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Angmarth » Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:26 am

Thinking about this some more, I would refine damage like this.

1) There are 2 kinds of damage. Slash/Crush and Pierce.
1a) Damage is only delivered by blows of sufficient force.
2a) Missiles are considered to ALWAYS deliver sufficient force.

2) All armor absorbs 1 blow from a small hand held weapon, no matter how the blow is delivered

3) 2 handed blows from a great weapon penetrate armor, no matter how they are delivered
3a) 1 handed blows from a great weapon count as a 1 handed blow from a small weapon
3b) 2 Slash/Crush blows from a great weapon when wielded with 2 hands destroys a heavy shield
3c) 1 Slash/Crush blow from a great weapon when wielded with 2 hands destroys a light shield

4) Missiles are piercing weapons
4a) Missiles count as a 2 hand pierce vs. leather armor
4b) Missiles count as a 1 hand pierce vs. metal armor
4c) Shields and helmets are immune to missiles

While people might argue this is more complex, I think it is reasonable. After all, it is MY dream. 8)
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Black Cat » Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:42 am

Angmarth wrote:Thinking about this some more, I would refine damage like this.

1) There are 2 kinds of damage. Slash/Crush and Pierce.
1a) Damage is only delivered by blows of sufficient force.
2a) Missiles are considered to ALWAYS deliver sufficient force.

2) All armor absorbs 1 blow from a small hand held weapon, no matter how the blow is delivered

3) 2 handed blows from a great weapon penetrate armor, no matter how they are delivered
3a) 1 handed blows from a great weapon count as a 1 handed blow from a small weapon
3b) 2 Slash/Crush blows from a great weapon when wielded with 2 hands destroys a heavy shield
3c) 1 Slash/Crush blow from a great weapon when wielded with 2 hands destroys a light shield

4) Missiles are piercing weapons
4a) Missiles count as a 2 hand pierce vs. leather armor
4b) Missiles count as a 1 hand pierce vs. metal armor
4c) Shields and helmets are immune to missiles

While people might argue this is more complex, I think it is reasonable. After all, it is MY dream. 8)


That sounds like a good system.

The only question I have is what would count as a 'heavy' shield or a 'light' shield? Would it have to be over a certain weight, or would it simply have to have a substantial core such as 1/2" plywood built into its construction? Would bucklers count as 'heavy' as long as they use a solid core? Would a 'light' shield simply be any coreless or excessively thin-cored shield that comes along, or would there be other criteria for defining one?

Also, If that system actually gets used, I think that the metal armor rule on missile weapons should only apply to torso armor for the safety reasons that Oisin outlined in this thread.
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Derian » Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:54 am

There's a massive thread from a few years ago on what would constitute a one hit shield and what would constitute a two hit shield. I believe it's in WCGD or WCRL.

If I recall correctly, it may have even gone to a vote.
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Angmarth » Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:55 am

The complex answer about shields (in my dream) is based on a linear density (circumference compared to mass). The easy answer is any substantial core (plywood or tech-ply).

The torso armor point is a good one and would be included in my little dream world.
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Angmarth » Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:56 am

The shield subject never came to a vote, but was discussed quite a bit. I had some samples in one of my threads.
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Angmarth » Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:06 pm

I looked around and found a reference to my original post, but the first one was long gone after the board was hacked a few years ago. Here is the base info (big thanks to Thorondor for reposting this). I have included Thorondor's comments, because they are relevant as well.

Thorondor wrote:Forkbeard, the ONLY problem with the one weight rule is this:

Bucklers = smaller = less weight
They are already small so they don't block as much. Why limit/hurt their use any more by giving them only one hit.

We don't want to get too complicated or we could say "a shield must weigh at least 1lb per square foot of surface area. That would get WAY too complicated at weapons check.

We COULD, on the other hand, put breaks on shields. Round shields at or under 20" must weight at least X for 2hits and round shields over 20" must weight at least Y for 2hits.

Then on non-square shields we could measure the LONGEST distance and use that for figuring the weight. Square/rectangle shields would be measured across the face (opposite corners). Heaters would be measured from their tip to the top of the shield, etc.

~?~

EDIT IN: Since at least one person decided NOT to read all of Angmarth's post, here it is...
Angmarth wrote:Edhellen Old Tech Cored from here on out known as EOTC is a plywood back, metal bolts, leather straps, DAP contact cement and trigger cover.

Edhellen New Tech No Core from here on out known as ENTNC is a foam shield with fiberglass rod handle, using DAP contact cement and a trigger cover.

Standard Edhellen Buckler (EOTC): 1.85lbs, 154 square inches of protection - .19 oz per square inch

Standard Edhellen Coreless Punch (ENTNC): 2.92 lbs, 415 square inches of protection - .11 oz per square inch

Standard Edhellen Round Core (EOTC): 6.545 lbs, 594 square inches of protection - .18 oz per square inch

Standard Numenoren Heater Core (EOTC): 10.38 lbs, 756 square inches of protection - .22 oz per square inch

Standard Edhellen Coreless Tower Punch (ENTNC): 5.15 lbs, 864 square inches of protection - .095 oz per square inch


The shield discussion is really for another time, so let's stay to the topic at hand. We can start another one if people would like to talk about it.
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Black Cat » Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:59 am

Rasheab wrote:Does anyone have a link to the arrow nock in shield picture?


Ask To'Gur.

(now that I actually remember the guy's board name)
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Loptr » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:07 am

This has been a pretty good thread to read. I appreciate the fact that everyone is having a respectful conversation and sharing reasons why the support x idear.

Several responses to several good posts below-

Cyric wrote:It sounds really good to me, but we can't pass a single rule change without massive back and forth arguing on the same point, much less a complete overhaul of the rules.

Create a consistent rules clarification process. Example: Open discussion of proposed changes on the forum. Each realm selects a rules rep to collect and present the will of the realm. Require a 75% majority to pass a rules change. Do this on a regular schedule each even year is rules clarifications, every odd year is rules changes. Hold the votes at the same time every year with the same open process for discussion, play test then vote the will of the realm. Adjust BOW as appropriate.

Derian wrote:This would really simplify things. I think the best way to begin down that path is to let the current proposed stabbing rule die out (it's incomplete), and put forward one to standardize damage.
All one handed strikes do one point of damage: blue, single green.
Two handed strikes do two points of damage and negate armor: red weapons, double green, missile weapons.
The only part I don't like about what Physic proposed is the helmet rule. If missile weapons can damage helmets, there is pretty much no in game advantage to wearing them. People would only wear them for the extra protection from errant shots and looking cool.

QFT
I like Soo Ma Tai’s clarification of minimum lengths for “two handed”.

Oisin wrote: I completely disagree about double green and archery only doing one point to armour, and helmets should remain as proof against missiles, but standardizing damage and limb rules is a very good thing.
Any two limbs = death = a good thing.
Single green = single blue = one point of armour damage = a good thing.

As much as I personally dislike it archery probably ought to continue to pierce armor.
Oisin wrote: I also really like the idea of eliminating knee-running. *snip* Making legged fighters completely stationary seems like a bad idea to me. Maybe allow them to move at no faster than a slow walking pace?

If a legged person cant/doesn’t want to take a leg let them “post” just like in basketball.
Oisin wrote: *snip* Helmets being proof against missile fire is just a plain playability issue.

QFT
Oisin wrote: As far as armour goes, *snip* All the people who were already going to be wearing nice armour (either leather or metal) will already be wearing it, and everyone else will just rivet a few layers of suede together so that they can get that one arrow hit.

This is fairly simple to prevent. Simply state in armor rules that it must be made of a single piece of leather x thick IE: ¼ thick or whatever. Same thing with chain IE: 16 ga 4 in 1 steel at a minimum.
Oisin wrote: Archers don't need to be nerfed. *snip*but I've never heard a good argument as to why. *snip*

The only thing I have to add on this front is archers calling their shots. This is as weak as the sluffer who blows a shot. If one class of fighter can call their shots it should be consistent across the board. Not something I want to see.

I think removing double green from spear/pole class weapons is short sighted. Perhaps it makes it a bit easier for the average nooblet to process the rules. But it sacrifices reality for convenience. An 8’ pole/spear wielded two handed even pole que style generate a lot of penetrating power (assuming body mechanics come into play. To nerf that down to single point seems a bit unbalanced.

Oisin wrote:*snip*In a skirmishing situation, the guys with the swords and boards will still dominate both florentiners and redsworders.

I cannot disagree enough. This is a blanket statement and fails the litmus test. In a blue can stab situation it will come down to the skill of the individual fighters.

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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Derian » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:38 am

Loptr, your proposal for rules modifications is almost exactly how War Council functions now. The only differences is that changes/additions only require simple majority and votes are held quarterly.
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby MagnusofDregoth » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:45 pm

Just wanted to give a heads-up:

At the Dagorhir event I attended last weekend, the hosting realm allowed metal knee and elbow armor, so I brought my metal elbows with rondels on them. Basically these
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but with the rondels laced to the elbow rather than riveted, so as not to provide a rigid projecting piece of armor and also because I think it's more accurate to the period I am portraying.

It was a very close-packed, hard-hitting battle with lots of shield bashes, pile-ups, shoving and kicking over of opponents, and also about 2' of snow. But despite all the close-in contact, and my participation in much of it, no one was injured by my fearsome metal elbows. Not even the guy I elbowed into the ground.

I am not sure if this counts as empirical data for your purposes, but I figured I would throw it out there.
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Kaimelar Morikayun » Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:43 pm

Im definitely hoping that the rules for single green get changed. I think single green should certainly do 1 point of dmg to armor. I still do enjoy the green affect on limbs though.

It gets a bit too into the technicalities but I also feel that a double green thrust that starts two handed, but which ends with one hand on the weapon (for momentum or reach purposes) should still count as 2 points. Hopefully that makes sense? ...sorry this is probably an altogether different topic, since we are talking about simplifying the text rather than making something more technical...soo moving on then...lol

I agree with limited movement on injured legs (perhaps because I am fat...shifty eyes) but I am on the border about missiles counting as 1 rather than 2. I dont think a thrown javelin would go through armor any more than a single handed dagger, but I do feel that an arrow on most occasions would penetrate. I would probably lean towards all missiles counting as 1 point rather than classifying arrows and javelins seperately. Archers would just pick on more unarmored or helmless fighters =P. I do think that red/florentiners can be discouraged to do so on the field when missiles are 1 hit death even with armor. Helms really are an awkward exception. I think that 2 missiles to a helmet should count as death.

I also agree with a limb is a limb is a limb. Dead leg should count towards death just as a dead arm does.

Armor can certainly be viewed as cheap. Sometimes I feel the same way about it. Im still working on having a suit myself, which I don't wear often now and prolly won't when its finished, but I do think that it should keep its advantages. I think the effort and time or money that goes into it should count for something, but I understand how it can make a fight very uneven. The person who is wearing the armor though, does not have to call it just because he/she is wearing it, and if they feel that not calling it would even a fight, then that would be quite noble. (as much as unlikely for the most part)
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Arrakis » Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:09 pm

Kaimelar Morikayun wrote:It gets a bit too into the technicalities but I also feel that a double green thrust that starts two handed, but which ends with one hand on the weapon (for momentum or reach purposes) should still count as 2 points.


So "pool cue" shots should ignore armor? Are you crazy? That's the easiest shot for a spearman to throw. Spears would be GOD.

Kaimelar Morikayun wrote:I dont think a thrown javelin would go through armor any more than a single handed dagger, but I do feel that an arrow on most occasions would penetrate.

It sounds like you're just going with what you sorta think would be the case from just conjecturing about it. Do some research: Well-armored men have traditionally been completely invulnerable to archers.

Kaimelar Morikayun wrote:I think that 2 missiles to a helmet should count as death.


And suddenly half as many people wear helms and archery gets EVEN MORE powerful?
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Kaimelar Morikayun » Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:22 pm

Ouch, sorry man. I just feel that the pool-cue shot has just as much power behind it. As far as javelins vs. arrows I could certainly be wrong, just my opinion. Obviously, armored men in Belegarth are not even partially invulnerable from archers, except for helmets. Like I said before, helmets are an awkward exception to the missile rules, because if an arrow penetrates THE SAME EXACT material that is on the wearer's torso, why does it not penetrate the helm? Just so people have a good reason to wear a helmet. Thats cool and all, and I think 1 free missile to the face is worthy of wearing it if you so wish. Especially if it would then take 2 missiles to kill/wound other target areas besides the head. A bit of a "nerf" for missiles, but then something to balance it.

These are simply my opinions. Sorry if they are not researched or sane. This is a great thread though and I would love to see some of these changes actually happen.
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Arrakis » Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:10 pm

Well, good on you for at least taking an interest in improving the game.

How's the old Dur-D South treatin' you?
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Kaimelar Morikayun » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:20 pm

Very good very good. I am currently squiring under Sir Lotek and having a blast fighting with them. I don't know if your familiar with any of the Sage Hill members from Smyrna but also been hangin with them.

sorry for the off-topic =P. Keep goin on with yah goin ons...
:fish: :fish: :fish: these fish * rock :arrow: :fish: :fish: :fish:
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Loptr » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:33 am

Lets discuss double green for a minute.

It would seem it ought to be based on power delivered. Therefore it seems unlikely a single blue sword ought to be able to deliver a double green (let alone a dagger)
A spear type weapon wielded with a single hand does'nt really have the control or power to make a significant thrust.
A spear type weapon wielded two handed has greater ability to push **** around and block. Once the pole has created its hole its not real difficult to follow through to the target.

My question arises on the two handed "firm" grip vs the "pool que" grip.
If one is using solid body mechanics and delivering a thrust with sufficient force I fail to see the argument against one style or another. If anything I would argue that a pool que grip allows you to gather greater hip, torso, and shoulder rotation. Thusly leading to a more devestating blow than the Fellow using solid double grip, who can get the hip and torso involved but you missing the last third of the power curve (the shoulder) for delivery of a solid blow.

In my experience I have been able to deliver decidedly solid clean "double" greens using pool que than with keeping both hands firmly connected. Magnus can be my charachter witness to this, in that more than once I have spun him around from such a stab. Where as my same target received a much less impactful stab "following the rules". (Be mindful I have never called double green on a pool que shot, but several targets have teken them as such due to the force delivered).

We already call light, it seems to me that double green should be delivering a more powerful shot than a single green. Following that logic is there a minimum barier for double green force? I am not advocating knocking your oponnents kidney out of their body. I also recognize the whole stabbing thing is gaining momentum on a single blue inspite of the delicate it hurts types out there. Added force may not be the proper response here.

Finally, I think we all hate rules lawering and cheesing from peeps. Making the red/green class weapon 2 points if wielded two handed and 1 pt wielded one handed is clear and to the point. Followed by blue/green is 1 pt regardless. (I think Soo Ma Tai wrote a rule suggestion related to length)
This could help eliminate a number of wrongful grudges of x is blowing my shot, or y didnt use two hands......

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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Arrakis » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:49 am

Peter the Quick, among others, can knock you off of your feet with a one-handed stab. Should his bluesword stabs count as double green?



I've sort of been thinking lately that we should just get rid of double green all together. Let Green hit do one point of damage to ANY target area (armored or unarmored) and forget double green ever existed. it makes the rules simpler, everyone's life easier (spearmen can pool cue all the like), and just sounds like a better proposal to me.

By the way, Loptr: A pool-cue shot can be harder than the hardest two-handed style thrust. It's a mechanics issue.
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Loptr » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:58 am

Arrakis wrote:Peter the Quick, among others, can knock you off of your feet with a one-handed stab. Should his bluesword stabs count as double green?



I've sort of been thinking lately that we should just get rid of double green all together. Let Green hit do one point of damage to ANY target area (armored or unarmored) and forget double green ever existed. it makes the rules simpler, everyone's life easier (spearmen can pool cue all the like), and just sounds like a better proposal to me.

By the way, Loptr: A pool-cue shot can be harder than the hardest two-handed style thrust. It's a mechanics issue.


Following your logic of removing double green the shouldnt we remove red doing two point too? I am not against the idea of single greem but am opposed to nerfing one shot and not another from a great weapon.

I am shopping for a consistency ease of play rule. I am biased toward the min length rule put forth in this thread.
Under x 1 pt blue/green
ielOver x 2 pt red/green wielded with two hands, 1 pt weed with one hand.

Course I tend to think red/green should be a bit bulkier in thier construction than a blue/green....

L
p.s. If someone hits me with an unusually powerful blue/green I tend to take it as a red/green. But hey that is just me.
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Re: My ideal fighting system

Postby Physic » Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:46 am

Allowing single handed thrusts to damage armor is a huge benefit to spears. If we actually changed to this type of rule system spears would gain the most from it. Armored spear men would not be an auto kill for missile weapons. They would become the new powerhouse on the field. Loosing the double thrust is actually a very minor nerf. When I spear I typically dont even attempt to double green people because it opens you up to much for counter attacks. The whole idea of this is to make the game balanced, easier and more efficient to follow. It is silly how complicated some of our rules can be, when it doesn't have to be that way.

On a side note this would also eliminate having to check all weapons for double green hits, making weapons check slightly more efficient.
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