stab tips on blue

[Forkbeard]

If anyone wants to affect change in this area, there is a simple way to do it. I'm doing ths myself.
1)meet up with each other at events.
2)vollenteer for weapon check.
3)pass stabbing weapons. If they are safe, of course.
We are the one who get to set these standards. All we have to do is help out a little ate events instead of sitting around * about it.
FB

[Soo Ma Tai]

I agree 100% FB, that's how we do it.

[Satanaka]

Wow- to make this even better- lets take the meanest and toughest in the game- ONLY the people that have the highest threshold for pain and we will let these guys check the weapons. We all want the hardest of fighting. This will ensure that almost 99% of weapons will pass- and lets play test this at Octoberfest or Chaos War and see how it goes on Saturday.

(better have those disclaimer sheets up to date, as well as that insurence- we don't want those tough people being held responsible) I wonder what will happen? What do you think?

If anyone wants to affect change in this area, there is a simple way to do it. I'm doing ths myself.
1)meet up with each other at events.
2)vollenteer for weapon check.
3)pass stabbing weapons. If they are safe, of course.
We are the one who get to set these standards. All we have to do is help out a little ate events instead of sitting around * about it.
FB

[Satanaka]

Glad you asked Mike- as an example- I'll use the "lets make Belegarth in to HACKS" example. Or Lets make Belegarth Like SCA- they ARE different and for good reasons. I don't understand why certain people want to make Belegarth into HACKS/SCA- why not jsut go there and play? The cost will be the loss of people as well as an increase in safety issues and injuries. If 20 people are on the field fighting in "HACKS" Mode- people that are just normal Belegarth people- have a higher chance of getting hurt by these people as well as a chance to make people NOT want to play Belegarth.
Is that a cost?? Is is "mythical"?

Looking at Stabbing tips: Certain people SAID that the old Kegg mart swords were safe to stabb with- welll a LARGE % of Heralds said "NO" so NOW- there is a new way to build the sword that is suppose to make them safer to stab with. So- was the 1st ones really as safe as they needed to be?
I am sure that I would be a little tougher on safety that you- so- there is one of the differences. Where you would pass certain things- I might error on the side of safety. I'd also bet that for the average Belegarth member- your way is gonna get more people hurt and lose members.

Is that a cost? Is that mythical?

I'm not sure what your point is Saki.
You stated earlier that there was some mythical price to be paid for playing a certain way.
I replied with "that isn't true" because we simply point people in the direction of the game (or the way) they want to play.
I'm not sure what your last post has to do with either of those things.

[Satanaka]

Thanks Jimmy-
I actuall got that much- was sorta talking about the "grey" area between the different games. I'd be willing to bet that Mike and a good number of Arnor- COULD step over to SCA with very little change- I am not sure it would work as well on the Amptgard field.

I also thing that Mike and Arnor would be the first realm to make Belagarth more like SCA and or HACKS. (like the using old style Edhellen swords to stab with) I don't think Angmarth and Arnor represents the average Belegarth member. Closer to being Keggs dream team.
Jimmy- you want to send your GF down to Arnor to go full tilt with theri weapons???

Thanks

Saki I think you misunderstood Angmarth, he never said that SCA people fight SCA on a belegarth field. The only thing that I know of that Arnor does remotely unsafe is use Edhellen swords standard as stabby. And that's something that both Amtgard AND the SCA do (SCA has a little modification, Amtgard has none from a standard sword.) He doesn't say they come out in SCA armor and swing rattan on the same field as Bel guys are swinging foam stick.

[Big King Jimmy]

Jimmy- you want to send your GF down to Arnor to go full tilt with theri weapons???

Well, no, but that doesn't mean it's up to me to tell them how to play the game. That's a realms right.

[Sir Anastasia]

Any weapon in unsafe hands is an unsafe weapon. This is a percentages game. Weapons that have passed a stringent check can still hurt people, however these are rare occurences that are reduced when weapon's checkers are paying attention. However, I do not think mandatory construction methods (such as having open cell on a tip) are necessary. Many weapons that are currently considered "non-stabbing" are in fact safe to stab with. Chamonix and its daughter realms have been stabbing with swords that do not have open cell tips for over 10 years and no one has ever sustained a serious injury from them. I admire people for wanting to err on the side of safety, but weapons checkers need to learn how to "feel" what a good stabby is. They don't have to go "Kush" to be safe. As long as you feel "Thud" without feeling the core AND without feeling discomfort that lasts for more than 10 seconds (on the hard hit), it should be a passable weapon, regardless of the construction technique employed.
-AoC

[Angmarth]

Glad you asked Mike- as an example- I'll use the "lets make Belegarth in to HACKS" example. Or Lets make Belegarth Like SCA- they ARE different and for good reasons. I don't understand why certain people want to make Belegarth into HACKS/SCA- why not jsut go there and play? The cost will be the loss of people as well as an increase in safety issues and injuries. If 20 people are on the field fighting in "HACKS" Mode- people that are just normal Belegarth people- have a higher chance of getting hurt by these people as well as a chance to make peopel NOT want to play Belegarth.
Is that a cost?? Is is "mythical"?

I don't recall my ever backing head shots, so turning Belegarth into the SCA is a statement completely out of left field. Personally I find the SCA too limiting in its choices during combat. No back stabbing, no grappling, no hitting your opponent with your shield, no bashing, etc. At the very least if you are going to accuse me of something make sure it is the correct thing. As for raising the bar on contact, I am guilty as charged. I want more bashing, would love to have the restriction removed for grappling unarmored opponents and have a few other things I would like to see altered, but I don't think I want to change the game into something different. I will tell you this NO ONE that has ever played at our park for any length of time has ever been surprised by the level of physical violence on the national level. I'm not saying we kick all sorts of * or anything, but I make sure that all of our members are fully aware of what kind of impact to expect and how to avoid getting creamed. Last time I checked, we still haven't had an injury as a result of shield contact or grappling. If people don't want to play Belegarth because it is too rough, then so be it. There is an Amtgard group up the street, that we work with and will be happy to send you to. On the same lines there are people occasionally who show up to that group that don't fit in, and they are sent to us. Many of the stick jock Amtgarders come out and play with us now and fit in just fine.

Looking at Stabbing tips: Certain people SAID that the old Kegg mart swords were safe to stabb with- welll a LARGE % of Heralds said "NO" so NOW- there is a new way to build the sword that is suppose to make them safer to stab with. So- was the 1st ones really as safe as they needed to be?
I am sure that I would be a little tougher on safety that you- so- there is one of the differences. Where you would pass certain things- I might error on the side of safety. I'd also bet that for the average Belegarth member- your way is gonna get more people hurt.

Just because you think something is one way, or a bunch of you think one way, doesn't make it right. However, it will be the standard we play by on the national level. The irony of this is, as much as we give our foam brothers in Amtgard grief about not having a sufficient force rule, their stab tips can be BRICKS in some cases. They have every right to call 90% of our realms PANSIES regarding that subject. (For the record, I pass Amtgard stabbing tips.)

Is that a cost? Is that mythical? And please explain "WE point people in the direction of the gamethat WE want to play"?

If you are going to quote me, at least don't change it. I said, "WE point people in the direction of the game that THEY want to play". Go back and read my post, try to keep from inserting new text in, unless you were making a point.

[Oisin]

I'm skinny, break easily, and and am not all that resistant to pain, and I've never had a problem fighting at Arnor. Neither has my girlfriend. I've seen far more problems from people being unsafe and overaggressive at national events than I've ever seen because of the rules differences we use at Arnor. I've never had a problem, my girlfriend has never had a problem, neither has anyone else that I've ever seen. Problems don't arise from the rules at Arnor, but they arise all the time at events when people act like douchebags (which is quite common, as I'm sure you're all aware).

The only exceptions are that we have a history of not running weapons check at the worst possible times, and (in the course of the past four years) have had a couple of major injuries result from unsafe weapons. Of course, I personally consider Edhellen redswords (one of which caused one of the injuries mentioned above) to be unsafe weapons in any iteration, but that's a completely different issue.

We use the same rules modifications at the university group where we regularly have small, unathletic girls, as well as other people with very low pain tolerances, and there's never been a problem resulting from modified grappling rules or more generous stabbing tip requirements. Never. In four years.

It's not nearly as big a deal as people make it out to be, although I am firmly opposed to relaxing the standards of armoured vs. unarmoured grapple initiation. It should be pointed out that at the moment, Arnor actually doesn't allow armoured combatants to initiate grapples against unarmoured, although the calculation of armoured vs. armoured and who's allowed to grapple who is based on body locations covered not types of armour worn.

[Loptr]

lots of great stuff about over legislating stabby tips

QFT

[Loptr]

Th
** what did you mean by "..And that's something that both Amtgard AND the SCA do.."


Thanks

The only thing that I know of that Arnor does remotely unsafe is use Edhellen swords standard as stabby. And that's something that both Amtgard AND the SCA do (SCA has a little modification, Amtgard has none from a standard sword.)

This quote is pretty * clear. Amtgard will pass an Edhellen sword for stabbing with zero modification. This is assuming the tip is not cheesed out and unsafe.
After a brief review of your posts. I garner your opposed to stabby tips unless they hit like a downy chick. A stab is gonna be reasonably stout due to smaller area hitting the body. NOBODY is advocating a blown tip be passed for stabs.
It sounds as if there is advocation for becoming less pussified in what constitutes a safe stabbing tip. I promise you at Amtgard Spring War a few weeks ago I took some downright righteous stabs from an unmodifiled legal Edhellen sword via Sir Shadow. That **** hurt for a few but I was and am fine.
Honest to god peeps stabs do not need to/should not land like a **** pillow. They can knock the wind out of you, but you should never feel core.

Safety is critial and a cheesed tip should NEVAR pass. but lets remove the sand from our collective manginas and remember we are playing a combat sport/game.

Loptr (* Amtgard crossover)

[Soo Ma Tai]

Don't listen to Loptr, he's a huge puss...

On another note, Saki, you used to get stabbed, by me, with uncapped PVC swords, that had 5 layers of blue camp pad on the tip and those ~used~ to pass Dag/Bel stabbing standards pretty much anywhere. I was quite distraught when I went to my first recent event, CW 6 and was told my weapon didn't pass for stabbing cause they hit two hard. This was after two years of stabbing in our realm with the same or same build weapons we used in Dur-D in the 90's. No poof foam, nothing. No injuries, nothing.

All people like Fork and I are saying is we need to relax the standard a bit. Not allow any ole thing to hit the field and start stabbing people. Just the ones that are good, solid construction, no core felt, and don't injure people with a hard stab.

[Elebrim]

I don't think anyone disagrees with the point, Soo, that stabbing tips can and should be both more firm and still safe. If I can ever get out to CW, I would love to get stabbed by one of your blue foam stabbies and see how it feels.

The problem with the Edhellens is that the tips have almost no give at all. Edhellens hit like a brick brand new; anyone who has run a weapons check knows this and has probably given the "hey, you need to break this in first" schpeal. But even when broken in, the tips stay rigid for much longer because there is less foam and more tape and glue reinforcing it - it's part of their construction, since a thinner middle section of the fry is what folds over the core. It's just not designed for high impact, which is why the added marine foam on the tip is helpful in reducing the force. It's still firm, but there is some give that dissapates the force of impact.

[Satanaka]

So- why would you NOT send her out there to fight?

Jimmy- you want to send your GF down to Arnor to go full tilt with theri weapons???

Well, no, but that doesn't mean it's up to me to tell them how to play the game. That's a realms right.

[Satanaka]

Now- to start off- mostly to people Reading- I have known Mike for a long while- respect him as a person, as a fighter and a leader. I may not agree with methods and/ or where Belegarth should go BUT- I still respect and care for him.

IMHO- it seems that you and those that follow the same train of thought want to move Belegarth to be "HACKS" Which would be like SCA X 5. Now- I may disagree with you- heck- may be the ONLY person that will voice a disagreement with you. I think you and your realm lean to the far right of the fighting/ stick jock side (but you - Mike do have good garb for a stick jock )

I tend to see the true heart of Belagrth as realms like: "Wolfpack, Dur-Demarion, Numenor (max limit), Southern Marches, Dun Abhon, Nan Belegorn, Rausumea, Tir Asleen and other such realms.
These realms seem more like the type of realms that are open to almost everyone. Not just 'stick jocks, and such. When I see a realm that is 99% guys- and 75% of them are all athletic types- I see more injuries, more physical fighting, more hot heads and more egos.
I don't want to see Belegarth to go: "...If people don't want to play Belegarth because it is too rough, then so be it. There is an Amtgard group up the street..."

Angmarth: "Personally I find the SCA too limiting in its choices during combat. No back stabbing, no grappling, no hitting your opponent with your shield, no bashing, etc. At the very least if you are going to accuse me of something make sure it is the correct thing. As for raising the bar on contact, I am guilty as charged. I want more bashing, would love to have the restriction removed for grappling unarmored opponents and have a few other things I would like to see altered, but I don't think I want to change the game into something different. If people don't want to play Belegarth because it is too rough, then so be it. There is an Amtgard group up the street, that we work with and will be happy to send you to. Many of the stick jock Amtgarders come out and play with us now and fit in just fine. "

sorry, my bad. I guess that was more how I interpret your vision. So- that WAS the way I see most of your moves via rules and such.

Angmarth: "If you are going to quote me, at least don't change it. I said, "WE point people in the direction of the game that THEY want to play". unless you were making a point.

Now as I said above- I respect Angmarth/ Mike- heck I understand what he wants to make Belegarth become- I just disagree. I still respect him and I know when I meet him on the field- I'm not gonna have to call light- BUT I also know he is not gonna cheat or try to hurt me. I also know if I need help - I can call on him. BUT- I'd also not want my wife to fight in Arnor. SO- Jimmy said the same above- yet I don't see anyone saying anything else.

Thanks Mike for the discussion- I appreciate your response.

Respectfully,
Allen

[Satanaka]

?????? They (amtgard) passed all my sword- BUT- the minute I applied any of hit (that we would call light) it was to hard and un-safe.
With stabbing tips- I have found marine foam makes a good balance (not pillow cushion). the problem is that to make a good passing stabbing tip - ends up destroyed tip when used as a swinging blue. So- MANY people have NOT learned to make a sword that will hold up as a striking blue and stabbing green.
Edhellen- could not get the general agreement that the construction was safe enough - else a "NEW" weapon would not have been made.
If Arnor uses them- that's cool for Arnor BUT all it takes is one bad injury. Then we will see what happens. I am as happy as a fire cracker at a bondfire to see and get one of the new Edhellen stabbing blue swords. KEGG- Hook me up!!!

It's not a matter of 'pussified' else everyone that has been playing for how ever long- would be considered. BUT- your remarks do re-enforce my post above with Angmarth. So thanks.

NO- Absolutely NOT my opinion or stance. I am against : "watered down" rules or Heralding to get certain swords to pass that normally would not- I think that is cheating. and I think it is wrong and unsafe.- That is what I am saying and supporting.

"Loptr": after a brief review of your posts. I garner your opposed to stabby tips unless they hit like a downy chick. A stab is gonna be reasonably stout due to smaller area hitting the body. It sounds as if there is advocation for becoming less pussified in what constitutes a safe stabbing tip.

I agreed- I don't want to * blood.

Honest to god peeps stabs do not need to/should not land like a **** pillow. They can knock the wind out of you, but you should never feel core.

Agree.

Safety is critial and a cheesed tip should NEVAR pass.

hmmm..... seems more like an insult. So- do I add one myself or ignore???

but lets remove the sand from our collective manginas and remember we are playing a combat sport/game.

[Satanaka]

And I am not opposing any of that. Over the last 3 years I have seen a move to increase stabbing tips- that's cool as ice cream. BUT- in that effort- some people can't make a good weapon- so they "...i want my weapon to pass- so change the rules..." - I don't agree with this.

Soo Ma Tai- if you refer to the past many times- Jimmy will be on your * so- keep it to a min.

So- all of a sudden- some people have stabbing tips that pass- others don't- It's hard to make a good blue/green sword that will pass and last- very hard. Not everyone is going to be able to do it. to use one of Loptr's words: I don't see why we should "pussified" our rules due to people NOT having the ability to build a safe, good blue/green sword that is the latest move, craze or "in" thing. we don't need weapons to be harder JUSt to pass them- or change the rules to make it easier for people who can't make them safe enough.

Keep the rules safe and become better weapons smith. That's what I believe.

As far as allowing an old weapon on the field- it should pass all weapons check like everything else.

Question- where do you hit someone MOST the time with a stabbing sword???????
Question 2- where do you test a stabbing tip??????

Hmmmmm... I wonder.......

Don't listen to Loptr, he's a huge puss...

On another note, Saki, you used to get stabbed, by me, with uncapped PVC swords, that had 5 layers of blue camp pad on the tip and those ~used~ to pass Dag/Bel stabbing standards pretty much anywhere. I was quite distraught when I went to my first recent event, CW 6 and was told my weapon didn't pass for stabbing cause they hit two hard. This was after two years of stabbing in our realm with the same or same build weapons we used in Dur-D in the 90's. No poof foam, nothing. No injuries, nothing.

All people like Fork and I are saying is we need to relax the standard a bit. Not allow any ole thing to hit the field and start stabbing people. Just the ones that are good, solid construction, no core felt, and don't injure people with a hard stab.

[Satanaka]

BUT- there are those that say: "... an edhellen sword is perfect- straight from the cashier to the field- don't need to be checked..." and they want the rules basicly changed to reflect this.

I know a little about the Edhellen weapons making- I support it and love what it has done to make the game better and a better uniform weapons accessible to everyone.
BUT- I still want them to go through weapons check and be checked like every other weapon without favoritism or shortcuts.

Elebrim": The problem with the Edhellens is that the tips have almost no give at all. Edhellens hit like a brick brand new; anyone who has run a weapons check knows this and has probably given the "hey, you need to break this in first" schpeal.

[Reverend]

Question- where do you hit someone MOST the time with a stabbing sword???????
Question 2- where do you test a stabbing tip??????

Q1: I try for the sword-arm pectoral or the armpit.
Q2: The back.

Random interjection: After reading over a lot of discussions and helping out with weapons check at Octoberfest last year, I've found that the way I check stabbing has changed.

Yup, that's right, I'll admit I was one that had 'pussified' expectations on stabbing tips. But, I've had that view point changed and for the better.

[Forkbeard]

I started making my stab tips with 3/4" eva foam. One 3/4" x 1 1/4" strip over the tip of my edhellen sword and a 1/4" peice on the sides for stabilizing.
THey all passed at thaw brawl and people kept coming up to me telling me they liked them. I made them the way Peter has been recomending I just replace his Marine Faom with the eva(all I had). I got the eva foam from WindRose armoury for padding my SCA helm.
Satanaka, I have to say, you sound like a paranoid wuss. I've thought so for a while, but now your really starting to sound like a scared old *. I think you may feel like we're making Bel more agresive and violent. That's what it sound like.
We are not. It's always been like this. We're not talking about changin rules here. We are talking about regulating weapon checks on safe stab tips.
I feel like you and turds like Anistasia are going out of you way to make Bel weaker and more flurby. If you don't like the way it is(a game for physicaly adept people to hit each other very hard with foam version of weapons) then get the **** out. If little sickly people are afraid they will get hurt on the field, they should stay the **** off it.
I used to play a larp when I was young. You're "all inclusive, this should be fair for everyone" attitudes sound alot like them.
FB

[Satanaka]

Well- like the 'old' saying goes Forkbeard- Opinions are like * Everyone has one- and you are entitled to your own (even if it is bigger and louder)(opinion).

From what I am understanding in your description on your stabbing tips- sounds great. I don't remember failing very many weapons at this last Octoberfest- matter of fact- I think Kegg even failed a few that I passed- BUT- anything I did fail- was backed up by at least 2 other different Heralds. And yes- "YALL" are going to try to change the rule - in time and yes- you want to be able to pass more stabbing tips that have been failing to date. If they have failed in the last year- and SOME people are crying and want to lower the standard on stabbing tips so they get their weapon passed- I vote NO
Just make them better- sounds like you did.

Forkbeard: I started making my stab tips with 3/4" eva foam. One 3/4" x 1 1/4" strip over the tip of my edhellen sword and a 1/4" peice on the sides for stabilizing.
THey all passed at thaw brawl and people kept coming up to me telling me they liked them. I made them the way Peter has been recomending I just replace his Marine Faom with the eva(all I had). I got the eva foam from WindRose armoury for padding my SCA helm.

Thank you- Proved my point.

...If you don't like the way it is (a game for physicaly adept people to hit each other very hard with foam version of weapons) then get the **** out. If little sickly people are afraid they will get hurt on the field, they should stay the **** off it.FB

[Loptr]

Ok Satanaka here we go I would like you to please clarify things for me.

So- all of a sudden- some people have stabbing tips that pass- others don't- It's hard to make a good blue/green sword that will pass and last- very hard. Not everyone is going to be able to do it. to use one of Loptr's words: I don't see why we should "pussified" our rules due to people NOT having the ability to build a safe, good blue/green sword that is the latest move, craze or "in" thing. we don't need weapons to be harder JUSt to pass them- or change the rules to make it easier for people who can't make them safe enough.
Keep the rules safe and become better weapons smith. That's what I believe.

Again nobody is advocating an illegal sword on the field.
My first several attempts at a stab legal sword resulted in a rediculas tip that would fold over. This results in an unsafe weapon and I am 100% behind the idea that a tip like that is not safe and should not be on the field.
My comments about pussified are that the construction required to get a tip to pass was onerous and **** redicuals. I for one am excited by the amount of cross sharing of foam smith tech. In Amtgard there are very few peeps that keep their construction secret. I have occasionally encountered this attitude in Bel, it is gratifying to see open honest communication on making safe legal stab tips (and the recognition that they should not hit like a pillow).
As a result of what seems to be a national movement towards stabbing tips being more prevelant on the field tip construction tech is being shared and spreading. Additionally there is an "education" front with heralds. I give you Reverend as a classic example of my point:

interjection: After reading over a lot of discussions and helping out with weapons check at Octoberfest last year, I've found that the way I check stabbing has changed.
Yup, that's right, I'll admit I was one that had 'pussified' expectations on stabbing tips. But, I've had that view point changed and for the better.

And yes- "YALL" are going to try to change the rule - in time and yes- you want to be able to pass more stabbing tips that have been failing to date. If they have failed in the last year- and SOME people are crying and want to lower the standard on stabbing tips so they get their weapon passed- I vote NO

I for one would favor clarity in the BoW to be more clear on what "safe stabs" are. But I respect the counter arguments of keeping the BoW fairly simple. Here is the relevant excerpt from the Bel and Amt rule books. Exactly where is there a push to change the Bel rule? I quote the Amt rule so you can understand where the lions share of my experience in building legal swords comes from.
Bel BoW quote:
1.3.1. All striking surfaces of Weapons must be padded adequately to prevent personal injury when striking an opponent with full force on that surface.
Amt Rop V7.5 page 9:
Weapon Construction Notes
A safe weapon is one that will not mark, bruise, or break bones or teeth when it strikes a person. If your weapon
hurts you when you are struck, it is not safe.
*snip*
Weapon tips (points, guards, pommels, etc.) and striking surfaces must be at least 2.5 inches in diameter (flat blade
weapons must not be able to pass their tip through a 2.25 inch diameter ring) in diameter. The ends of all weapon
cores must be blunted by capping them with a layer of foam and tape. Stabbing weapons should include extra
padding on the tip to ensure safety.

Just make them better- sounds like you did.[/b]

Your statement is flawed. A year ago this tip would have likely failed our here in the west. How do I know? I had similar construction fail at the time in addition to my other construction that followed the then current designs on the Bel linked construction site. Now jump forward to today where there is a national push to increase stab tip presence on the field and working with heralds to recognize that a stab should not tickle to be safe. You have what I consider to be a more reasonable standard between safety and a tip that is more durable.

Side Note on Edhellen blade: I am not a fan of Amtgard passing them for stabbing, but at the same time while they are stout there have not been any significant injuries from them.

In closing Satanaka please clarify this.
1. Where are "we" advocating rules change to unsafe stabbing?
2. Where is anybody advocating an illegal weapon on the field?
3. Is it possible that the voices your railing against are seeking for a more realistic set of standards on what constitutes safe stabs?

Loptr

[Big King Jimmy]

(even if it is bigger and louder)

Listen, no. Just no. This is the internet, and if you read a post and use the correct voice inflections for the text presented, your posts are constantly yelling. Sure, Forkbeard uses bad language, but the end of the day he's at least direct and clear. The way your posts are all bolded, colorful, or use a lot of false logic trying to pick peoples posts apart and put words in their mouth. No one wants to post in these threads Saki, because your opinion won't change, their opinion won't change, there won't be a pitch fork and torches peasant riot. They'll just get told how they're wrong, you'll quote and bold their posts and tell them how they prove your point. Having a debate with you is like **** a cheese grater. Sure you could do it, but why the **** would you?

And before you pm me, yes, this time I'm talking directly at you, and not about your point. Because your point is set in stone, and your not the only one that cares, but the rest of Belegarth is pretty okay with letting WC handle things. They've done just fine so far.

[Big King Jimmy]

I still don't see the point to this but, no one wants to pass unsafe stabbing tips. Perhaps uncomfortable, but that's a matter of opinion from one realm to the next. I sleep on a soft mattress, some people prefer a firm. They're not wrong, they're different. There is no rule in our book of war that says "stabby tips must cause 'this' much pain." or "Stabby tips should be coushy and soft." Hit standards have always had to be shown from one realm or generation to the next. And they've changed. Hits aren't what they were 10 years ago or even 5. This game has constantly evolved.

There has been no attempt to pass a rule through WC to pass unsafe weapons. There has been a motion to improve the amount of damage stabbing can do, but I believed and still do that the intention is not to change this game to be more like HACS, it's to change this game to simpler. We have one of the simplest rules sets in foam fighting, it's one of the things that attracts people to this game. They would like to see it made even simpler... huh.... who knew?

And, as I've said before, Dag and Bel split. A certain demographic of people went one way, a certain demographic went another way. If the people who went this way wanted to change our rules to be different from the group of people who went the other way I wouldn't be surprised. We're basically using another games rules, when I believe we're comprised of a very different type of fighter. That's my opinion on why the rules are changing. And I know, it's not a happy one, I'm sure I'll get the people who say "zomg, how could you still think this? This is 2009, we're all equal, foam fighting is foam fighting. We're all the same." I disagree. Every year I have friends go to Rag, some for the first time, and every year they come back. From the vets it's "It was more of the same." with a negative tone, and they talk about why they bother every year. From the guys going for the first time it's "Wow, I can't believe the stories are true. It's really THAT bad."

So, yes I think there is a group that wants change. No I don't think it's for the same reasons you do. I think we're using another games system when we're a group of fighters that don't want to fight that way, and I think it's part of how we've evolved into a separate group.

[Satanaka]

??? *???

Decaf Jimmy- Decaf.

So- by your "logic" why have the boards for people to talk, to share, to inspire, to whatever- JUST have the WC post so people can see what was voted in? NO!

Jimmy- it's like TV- move to another station- You and Rush L seem to just keep going on.

BTW- it was Loptr who used colors- so lets see you post some crap agaist him- since your all "cowboy up"?

(even if it is bigger and louder)

And before you pm me, yes, this time I'm talking directly at you, and not about your point. Because your point is set in stone, and your not the only one that cares, but the rest of Belegarth is pretty okay with letting WC handle things. They've done just fine so far.

[Satanaka]

To explain the simple things to you Jimmy- if you look back through many post- MANY PEOPLE break down the reply to address different issues. Grow up big guy.

Now to address your first paragraph - how do you know hit standards have changed over 10 years? 1) your full of ****, 2) unless someone told you- you dont freaking know, 3) Hits are hits- what has changed is the construction of weapons- hits are still hits. That's more fact than opinion. You sound like you just have a hard on for anything I post- hey- you were invited to speak face to face BUT- seemed you were always 'somewhere else'.

"Big Jimmy" I still don't see the point to this but, no one wants to pass unsafe stabbing tips. Perhaps uncomfortable, but that's a matter of opinion from one realm to the next. I sleep on a soft mattress, some people prefer a firm. They're not wrong, they're different. There is no rule in our book of war that says "stabby tips must cause 'this' much pain." or "Stabby tips should be coushy and soft." Hit standards have always had to be shown from one realm or generation to the next. And they've changed. Hits aren't what they were 10 years ago or even 5. This game has constantly evolved.

No one said anything about passing unsafe weapons Jimmy- I said that the talk seems to want to soften the rules that would allow weapons that normally fail- to pass- just to get more stabbing tips on the field. I see fault in that. I'd rather just have the Technical level of weapon's smithing get better on a broader scale. That makes PEOPLE BETTER and keeps weapons safe. And as to the point about new motions- nothing besides the one issue has occured- YET.

"Big Jimmy" There has been no attempt to pass a rule through WC to pass unsafe weapons. There has been a motion to improve the amount of damage stabbing can do, but I believed and still do that the intention is not to change this game to be more like HACS, it's to change this game to simpler. We have one of the simplest rules sets in foam fighting, it's one of the things that attracts people to this game. They would like to see it made even simpler... huh.... who knew?

"blah, blah, blah there was a split, blah, blah, blah..." sorta sounds like the pot calling the kettle... you get the meaning. Yeah- we get it Jimmy- some of us were around, son- move past it, get to A point.
Closer to reality Jimmy- the rules back in 1999- were something that was a work in progress by all members. To say that one person, or unit or realm "owned them" is complete *. The people that CHOSE to go to Belegarth- via the "split" or "kicked out" or were excommunicated- as some might say- decided to unite under the word "belegarth" (I think comprised by King Kegg) THAT was just suppose to be a united Illinois- like the way Aritari is made up of many realms. The game was the same- but due to threats- "class X" was used instead of colors- like blue, green, red, etc.

Big Jimmy" And, as I've said before, Dag and Bel split. A certain demographic of people went one way, a certain demographic went another way. If the people who went this way wanted to change our rules to be different from the group of people who went the other way I wouldn't be surprised. We're basically using another games rules, when I believe we're comprised of a very different type of fighter.

.... and opinions are like * holes.... blah, blah, blah- get it jimmy.

"Big Jimmy" That's my opinion on why the rules are changing.

Wow- you disagree with something- sorta the way I disagree with something- yet- since I don't agree with you- you want to attack me- talk about being hypocritical and just an *. But- continue with your "freedom to voice your opinion."
Question- why go then? Why support then? Have you seen the attendance at Armaggedon EVERY YEAR?????

"Big Jimmy" And I know, it's not a happy one, I'm sure I'll get the people who say "zomg, how could you still think this? This is 2009, we're all equal, foam fighting is foam fighting. We're all the same." I disagree. Every year I have friends go to Rag, some for the first time, and every year they come back. From the vets it's "It was more of the same." with a negative tone, and they talk about why they bother every year. From the guys going for the first time it's "Wow, I can't believe the stories are true. It's really THAT bad."

As far as I am concerned- the "system" we have is ours! Even before we changed "colors" for "classes"- Heck- I'd still use colors. We have ALL been using the same rules for a LONG TIME. It should not matter. Now- I do agree- with you that some people want to change the game. You think I am the only person that thinks some people want to make Belegarth rules more like HACKS?? if so- well- Jimmy- guess you'll wake up sometimes.
Is that the EXACT plan? I don't know 100%- I am just voicing my opinion- much like yourself. If it's to make things simple- we'd do a lot of things- get rid of Archery, NOT add hit points to plate and some other very radical changes- to "make it simple". I try to look further into it and also further into the future as to what the rules will effect and the dynamics it changes and new dynamics and situations it will cause.

BUT- Jimmy- through out history- it is a tactic- to try to just say that anyone that disagrees with you is "stuck in the past" or "has lost touch with the new generation"- so your tactic is not new. You try to destroy the person's thoughts via there race, religion, sex, physical attributes, etc. Good try- but- look at the reasonning and the words- not the person.

"Big Jimmy" So, yes I think there is a group that wants change. No I don't think it's for the same reasons you do. I think we're using another games system when we're a group of fighters that don't want to fight that way, and I think it's part of how we've evolved into a separate group.

regardless of where anyone "evolved"- I think Belegarth has the better weapons smithing- Edhellen has added to that- a mass production of weapons that are uniform throughout the whole GAME- and I believe we have the best fighters. We lack in numbers- BUT- who knows what the future will hold. I don't think we need to "radically change our rules not to look like Dag." Just be Belagarth and the best Belegarth we can be- keep it safe, fun and invite more people.

[Satanaka]

Again- Why not Jimmy- answer the freaking question.

Jimmy- you want to send your GF down to Arnor to go full tilt with theri weapons???

Well, no, but that doesn't mean it's up to me to tell them how to play the game. That's a realms right.

[Big King Jimmy]

Because my g/f is in Wolfpack, and Arnor and Wolfpack are kind of opposite ends of the system. It's not even really Arnor, I don't feel safe with her on just about any field. And that's fine with me, she's not in the kind of physical condition that I think is needed for this sport. She's kind of frail.

[Soo Ma Tai]

I started making my stab tips with 3/4" eva foam. One 3/4" x 1 1/4" strip over the tip of my edhellen sword and a 1/4" peice on the sides for stabilizing.
THey all passed at thaw brawl and people kept coming up to me telling me they liked them. FB

FYI, A year, these would have not passed out here. These are the things which we are trying to change Saki, not make edhellen straight from the factory good to go with absolutely no weapons check at all. The reason FB and I advocate a ~slight~ reduction in stab tip failure is that those same tips which are perfectly safe would not have passed last year. The awareness we have made about stab tips not having to be chushy pillows has made a difference. No need to make a rules modification. The work is done.

[Big King Jimmy]

So- by your "logic" why have the boards for people to talk, to share, to inspire, to whatever- JUST have the WC post so people can see what was voted in? NO!

No, see, that's more of you quoting people and deriving your own meaning and then telling them that's what they meant. It's a common Saki tactic. It's a pretty old one too. What I said was:

Because your point is set in stone, and your not the only one that cares, but the rest of Belegarth is pretty okay with letting WC handle things.

You point is about a group of people trying to change the rules, not about people talking, sharing, or inspiring. WC votes on rules, every rule you've had a problem with, they've voted no on. But, you know, you can just tell me that I don't want people to communicate on the boards, I'm sure that's what I meant. Thanks.

BTW- it was Loptr who used colors- so lets see you post some crap agaist him- since your all "cowboy up"?

Actually, I'm more talking about your sig line and posting history. I'll admit, you've toned it down in the last few months, but look at your sig if you need an example. It's something that people make fun of you for behind your back all the time. Sure, it was over the top and this was not the place for it, but it's not just me, your posting style that I described is a constant joke. I've told you this before.

To explain the simple things to you Jimmy- if you look back through many post- MANY PEOPLE break down the reply to address different issues. Grow up big guy.

And... that's fine? It's the same as I'm doing now. What most people don't do is take those quotes out of context and then tell the original poster "what they said." Which you seem to do all the time. After all, I'm so anti-communication on this board, right?

I still don't see the point to this but, no one wants to pass unsafe stabbing tips. Perhaps uncomfortable, but that's a matter of opinion from one realm to the next. I sleep on a soft mattress, some people prefer a firm. They're not wrong, they're different. There is no rule in our book of war that says "stabby tips must cause 'this' much pain." or "Stabby tips should be coushy and soft." Hit standards have always had to be shown from one realm or generation to the next. And they've changed. Hits aren't what they were 10 years ago or even 5. This game has constantly evolved.

Now to address your first paragraph - how do you know hit standards have changed over 10 years? 1) your full of ****, 2) unless someone told you- you dont freaking know, 3) Hits are hits- what has changed is the construction of weapons- hits are still hits. That's more fact than opinion. You sound like you just have a hard on for anything I post- hey- you were invited to speak face to face BUT- seemed you were always 'somewhere else'.

First of all, I was fighting 8 years ago. So you're right, 10 years back I don't really know for sure. And I can tell you for sure that in the realm of Dunharrow "sufficient force" is different now than it was then. I've also been told the same thing for the whole sport by veteran members of my realm.

And why oh why oh why would I want to spend time talking to you at events. The first time I ever formally met you you basically called me a key board cowboy piece of **** and talked down to me because I live with my parents. I go to events to enjoy myself, not look up at you looking down at me.

There has been no attempt to pass a rule through WC to pass unsafe weapons. There has been a motion to improve the amount of damage stabbing can do, but I believed and still do that the intention is not to change this game to be more like HACS, it's to change this game to simpler. We have one of the simplest rules sets in foam fighting, it's one of the things that attracts people to this game. They would like to see it made even simpler... huh.... who knew?

No one said anything about passing unsafe weapons Jimmy- I said that the talk seems to want to soften the rules that would allow weapons that normally fail- to pass- just to get more stabbing tips on the field. I see fault in that. I'd rather just have the Technical level of weapon's smithing get better on a broader scale. That makes PEOPLE BETTER and keeps weapons safe. And as to the point about new motions- nothing besides the one issue has occured- YET.

What talk? Where has there been anyone wanting to "soften the rules that would allow weapons that normally fail to pass?" There has been talking of having stabbing tips do more damage. There has been talk of softening the standards on stabbing tips at weapons check. There is no rule about that to change. It's simply whether or weapons checker thinks that it's safe or not. And, you might not realize this but like I've said, it's mostly Western fighters. In fact, I can't think of a time I've heard an eastern fighter talk about wanting to soften these standards. I've never been out west, but from talking to fighters in person and on the net their standards seem much higher than ours. If that standard is too high, it doesn't matter how weapons tech standards evolve. Now, no, you didn't say that you thought people want to pass unsafe weapons. What you said was:

From what I am understanding in your description on your stabbing tips- sounds great. I don't remember failing very many weapons at this last Octoberfest- matter of fact- I think Kegg even failed a few that I passed- BUT- anything I did fail- was backed up by at least 2 other different Heralds. And yes- "YALL" are going to try to change the rule - in time and yes- you want to be able to pass more stabbing tips that have been failing to date. If they have failed in the last year- and SOME people are crying and want to lower the standard on stabbing tips so they get their weapon passed- I vote NO

Again, I don't think you understand that this seems to be an east vs west thing. I have no doubt that the weapons you failed at 'Geddon were done so justly. But, the assumption that I made that may have been incorrect on assuming was that a weapon that fails weapons check is unsafe. By that assumption you're saying that people "are going to change the rule to get failed stabbing tips to pass." And if failed weapons are unsafe weapons then it's "Are going to change the rule to get unsafe stabbing tips to pass."

Did I miss something there? Did I read that wrong? I haven't seen anything to vote on that has anything to do with passing or failing stabbing tips.

And, as I've said before, Dag and Bel split. A certain demographic of people went one way, a certain demographic went another way. If the people who went this way wanted to change our rules to be different from the group of people who went the other way I wouldn't be surprised. We're basically using another games rules, when I believe we're comprised of a very different type of fighter.

"blah, blah, blah there was a split, blah, blah, blah..." sorta sounds like the pot calling the kettle... you get the meaning. Yeah- we get it Jimmy- some of us were around, son- move past it, get to A point.
Closer to reality Jimmy- the rules back in 1999- were something that was a work in progress by all members. To say that one person, or unit or realm "owned them" is complete *. The people that CHOSE to go to Belegarth- via the "split" or "kicked out" or were excommunicated- as some might say- decided to unite under the word "belegarth" (I think comprised by King Kegg) THAT was just suppose to be a united Illinois- like the way Aritari is made up of many realms. The game was the same- but due to threats- "class X" was used instead of colors- like blue, green, red, etc.

Yah, Saki, some of us were around, like me. I'm not saying I was a vet by any stretch of the imagination, but I definetly remember it.

If the people who went this way wanted to change our rules to be different from the group of people who went the other way I wouldn't be surprised.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean mean during the split and the formation of Belegarth. I mean presently.

I also understand how Belegarth was supposed to work in theory. But if the 2 groups are so similar a lot of people have lied to me when I've heard hundreds of times "We got more of the hardcore fighters, they got more of the social and party people."

Closer to reality Jimmy- the rules back in 1999- were something that was a work in progress by all members.

This confuses me, and I was wondering if you'd elaborate. Are you talking about the BoW or the MoA? The split happened in 2001, so I'm assuming you mean the MoA. What's changed? Why are the rules not a work in progress now. I don't remember anyone going "Sweet, that's it! These rule are perfect, shut down WC." Or was your point that at the time everyone had a say in how the rules should be changed? I don't understand.

That's my opinion on why the rules are changing.

.... and opinions are like * holes.... blah, blah, blah- get it jimmy.

Your right, we better stop people from sharing on these boards, shut 'em down and just let WC run things, we're all a bunch of opinion having *. You say that that rules are being brought up because some secret underground black ops Illuminati esk society is trying to turn our game into HACS. I'm offering a counter theory.

And I know, it's not a happy one, I'm sure I'll get the people who say "zomg, how could you still think this? This is 2009, we're all equal, foam fighting is foam fighting. We're all the same." I disagree. Every year I have friends go to Rag, some for the first time, and every year they come back. From the vets it's "It was more of the same." with a negative tone, and they talk about why they bother every year. From the guys going for the first time it's "Wow, I can't believe the stories are true. It's really THAT bad."

Wow- you disagree with something- sorta the way I disagree with something- yet- since I don't agree with you- you want to attack me- talk about being hypocritical and just an *. But- continue with your "freedom to voice your opinion."
Question- why go then? Why support then? Have you seen the attendance at Armaggedon EVERY YEAR?????

No, Saki, I'm perfectly okay with your sharing your opinion. With a sense of poise, and a little tact, and a lack of being able to change colors, text size, bolding and so forth in your posts, you'd be an awesome person to have on the board. Instead everytime you're posts come up at any practice I'm at it's a sigh, a shake of the head, and mention of how much you come across like a huge * to everyone on the boards while being a pretty decent guy in person. Now, let me try to speak to you in your own language: Whenever anyone tries to have a debate with you, you just just can't seem to help but belittle them and treat them like a piece of ****. Sure, I do it to you, but that's because I see YOU do it to EVERYONE. I have a lot of debates on this board where I don't treat people with disrespect, as I do you, because they treat people with respect.

And, I was second guessing this, when I got this PM:

I know you don't know me, I've been in Bele for over a year.

I was just curious, but I've been following the discussions on rule developement, and after seeing all the arguements while everyone tries to discuss, I am curious who Satanaka is, though I'd rather not bring it up since it's a constant battle with that one. I commend you on trying to remain respectable.

And, I've never been to a Rag. The info I get on Rag is from the Belegarth people that attend. They go for various reasons, for most it's because they go for the first time. Then they see that even 2000 people can't make a bunch of cheating and **** fighting for 2 hours a day look good. Those aren't my words, they belong to everyone I've ever heard talk about Rag who was a member of Belegarth and belonged to a unit that is largely Belegarth affiliated. IE: the only people I haven't heard say that are some black company guys and a small group of the fianna in nothern IL.

The ones that go back do so mostly because they're members of the EBF, and that's the event that most of EBF goes to. And that's pretty much just Morbian, he's the only person I can think of who goes to Rag about half the time.

I've seen the attendance of 'Geddon the last 3 years. The first one I went to was the last one not run by Bo, the one that Iowa ran. And it was pretty awesome. Last years was the best event I've ever been to. My most attended event is definitely octfest, which I've been to probably 6 times in 8 years.

And I know, it's not a happy one, I'm sure I'll get the people who say "zomg, how could you still think this? This is 2009, we're all equal, foam fighting is foam fighting. We're all the same." I disagree. Every year I have friends go to Rag, some for the first time, and every year they come back. From the vets it's "It was more of the same." with a negative tone, and they talk about why they bother every year. From the guys going for the first time it's "Wow, I can't believe the stories are true. It's really THAT bad."

As far as I am concerned- the "system" we have is ours! Even before we changed "colors" for "classes"- Heck- I'd still use colors. We have ALL been using the same rules for a LONG TIME. It should not matter. Now- I do agree- with you that some people want to change the game. You think I am the only person that thinks some people want to make Belegarth rules more like HACKS?? if so- well- Jimmy- guess you'll wake up sometimes.
Is that the EXACT plan? I don't know 100%- I am just voicing my opinion- much like yourself. If it's to make things simple- we'd do a lot of things- get rid of Archery, NOT add hit points to plate and some other very radical changes- to "make it simple". I try to look further into it and also further into the future as to what the rules will effect and the dynamics it changes and new dynamics and situations it will cause.

maybe not just you, but a very small number of people. Also, while sure we could just get rid of archery, everyone knows that a dramatic change has to be made in little steps. And, it's important to realize where rules changes come from. The people who want to make a stab effect armor aren't the same as the people who want to add a hit point to plate. Those are two different camps. I've spoken to people in the "competitive and athletic combat" group who WOULD like to ban archery, but that's a big change. So, yes, I still think the goal of this progressive movement is to simplify the game and make it more fast paced and competitive.

And I guess we just disagree on whether Bel's rules are ours or not. I always feel like we're using Dag's rules with a few tiny differences. I'm gonna try to phrase my point a little differently.
That quote I've heard from lots of different people, "We got the more fighting oriented people, they got more of the social party people." Let's assume for a second it's true. So, using numbers, and setting up a scale between people who do this foam swinging thing for hardcore combat vs a casual game, ie: Dagorhir was left with 70% casual fighters vs 30% hardcore stick jocks, and Belegarth got 70% hardcore stickjocks and 30% casual fighters. If the rules continued to evolve, I would expect that Belegarth would develop more stick jock rules and Dagorhir more casual fighting rules. So, we get people here wanting to make stabs count vs armor. What we get on their side is larger minimums on flail heads and weapons that have to balance in the blade. My theory doesn't just account for how our rules are changing (or trying to) but how theirs are as well.

BUT- Jimmy- through out history- it is a tactic- to try to just say that anyone that disagrees with you is "stuck in the past" or "has lost touch with the new generation"- so your tactic is not new. You try to destroy the person's thoughts via there race, religion, sex, physical attributes, etc. Good try- but- look at the reasonning and the words- not the person.

I really hope you die in a **** fire. I'm an exstremely tolerent person, and have never once spoken about any of the attributes you speak of. I think you're a **** bully and a douche bag, and would say the same thing if you were a black muslem ugly woman or a mexican buddist transvestite that peaked my sexsual interest. None of those things matter. I've never attacked someone based on any of that. You piece of ****.

[Derian]

Yaaaaaay.