Belegarth

by **Loptr** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:14 am

So I have heard grumblings far and wide related to stabby tips on blues.
There seems to be inconsistency from realm to realm, event to event.

Brief searches lends some input on the topic. But I am not really sensing a general trend either way that would result in the consideration of a rules modification. Is there not enough interest or have I missed a key thread?

Safety is certainly a very important consideration. Based on reading and experiences it would seem that the burdensome construction rules are actually creating a more dangerous weapon that is likely to fail faster than a non stabbing sword. My assumptions for this is the requirement of a "soft" tip to be placed on the sword. Most construction causes this softness to flex more thusly failing upon inspection or (worst case) during combat.

Are stabs from a weapon that truly dangerous? Or is it possibly a more nefarious “we don’t like to be stabbed so we will legislate it out”? Or is it possibly "this is how we have always done it, why change the horse in mid race?" I would hope option #2 is just paranoia and not grounded in reality.

Anyways, I am really interested in this conversation. I am not at present interested in the effect of stabs to armor or anything BUT stabby tips on blues. Please help keep it relevant to the topic.

*edit for typos*
Loptr

by **Derian** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:23 am

There actually are very few rules on how weapons are constructed. There are none that specifically apply to stabbing tips.

The harshness of weapons checkers on stabbing tips is something more of convention; it's been done that way for many years.

Around here, and especially Illinois, it seems like many, many people are realizing that stabbing tips don't have to be comfortable to be safe and are implementing much more realistic requirements for stabbing tips.

I can't speak for the West because I've yet to make it out there.

I've heard others say that, given a couple years, stabbing tips should be the standard, rather than the exception.

by **Cyric** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:21 pm

The trouble is that most people expect stabs to feel like getting punched with a pillow, but a blue stabby is to small a surface area to realistically expect that. i would think that as long as core isn't felt, it should be safe. not everyone is as hardcore, though.

i don't think it's a matter of trying to get rid of them, as stabs have seen a resurgence recently, due to the new edhellen stabbies.

by **Derian** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:42 pm

Loptr PMed me and asked me to move it here.

by **Ryu** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:01 pm

so i guess ill be the "voice of the west". in our local area(idaho/utah) stab tips get failed alot because people dont built them right. the few people that want stab tips are on the boards learning correct way to build them. i have built reds and blue with stab tips that pass at most events. like cyric and derian said, the stab tip is in a resurgence, its true for the west just as much as the east. more and more people are becoming educated on the matters of good builds.

by **Black Cat** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:59 pm

I want to have every weapon I own have a stab-tip on it, but I haven't had good luck with blue/green weapons. There doesn't seem to be any way to keep open-cell foam from being flimsy on a sword without double-boxing before adding the stab-tip. Open-cell also tends to go out quickly, especially on smaller weapons.

Are there any closed-cell builds that would work for a blue/green? I thought I read somewhere a while back about 'egg-crate' foam providing more cushion to a smaller surface area than normal (blue) foam, but I don't remember where. Would that stuff work?

Open-cell foam only works well for me on spears, red/green weapons with double-box builds, and missile weapons. Otherwise, I have had only bad luck with the stuff.

by **Ryu** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:11 pm

i just use reblade kits and nerf footballs, if im doing a blue sword i dap a blue reblade kit on it. after it sets i take a jig saw and slice off the outer most layer and the tip. next is the stip of leather and the one layer of blue to prevent the core from stabbing though. then come the nerf ball. last is the reinforcement layers on the out side (blade and flat)

same steps are taken for a red with stab except i dont cut the outer layer off

by **Derian** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:34 pm

A couple posts is fine, but if you're looking for advice on how to make stabbing tips, head over to the Foam Smithing forum.

by **Black Cat** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:56 pm

I cross-posted my question in the Foam Smithing forum.

Hopefully, finding good designs for stabby blues that are safe and effective would help solve this problem.

by **Loptr** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:03 am

Derian wrote:A couple posts is fine, but if you're looking for advice on how to make stabbing tips, head over to the Foam Smithing forum.

Thanks,
I posted a link for a construction PDF over there.
Now about the stabbing requirements in the game.......
I think there is room to explore relaxing the rules.

L

by **Forkbeard** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:40 am

I would say 95% of the stab tips I have ever seen failed. Not becuase theyweren't safe, or made incorectly. They failed becuase the weapons checkers inspect them to an imposible standard. They either do this"becuase it's they way we've always done it" or becuase they are part of an older culture of player who for some unknown reason, do not like stabbing tips. Either way, they are wrong.
Arnor and several other realms have been stabbing with unmodified edhellen weapons for years and years with no injuries.
Blue weapons need NO additional soft padding tobe safe.
It is my one wish that Bel as a whole stops being such pussies about this issuse.
I would vote to change it.
FB

by **Soo Ma Tai** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:21 pm

I agree 100% with Fork. We used basic blue foam swords to stab all the time when we first started up the Stygia realm, as well as doing so when I fought in Dur-D in the mid 90's.

by **Derian** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:49 pm

Yep. Like I said, there's no rules that govern how soft stabbing tips must be, it's merely 'how it's always been done'. Stabbing tips won't get an easier time at check until everyone realizes it's dumb to check them like that.

Fortunately, many are starting to come around.

by **Cyric** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:48 pm

Unfortunatly, it's nothing we can vote to make go away. All we can do is try and change the pervailing thoughts on what is a safe stab. It's not going to feel like an arrow or a spear, it's going to be solid. A hard stab will hurt about as much as a hard swing.

So, if you want to see more stabs in your area and are a weapon checker, pass them.

This is not to say pass anything with a stabby tip on it. But as long as it doesn't actually injure (not hurt them) someone, and you can't feel core, pass it. It may leave a bruise, but so does a good sword swing. If you're concerned, find out how it was made. Make sure it was made by someone you trust to make good weapons.

by **bo1** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:56 am

i would not pass a basic edhellen sword for stabbing. 3/4" of marine foam on the tip, aok to me. makes a huge difference in how it feels.

by **Sir_Mel** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:33 pm

I know this isn't for construction, but I'm gonna second Bo on the marine foam. I've had many weapons pass under quite "rigorous" testing with 1/2" -3/4" of ensolite on the end. It also makes for a much quicker, easier, and overall safer design.

by **Angmarth** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:28 pm

I think that people are WAY to stringent on stabbing tips. While I may be on the extreme end of the spectrum on what I think is safe, let me put it in another way.

There have been a lot of people mentioned as "hard" hitters. For ease of discussion, and because most people know who he is, I will use Peter the Quick.

If Peter the Quick were using a standard sword and swinging as "hard as he could" without impediment how would you like to be struck? Would you prefer he hit you with a stab or a strike? I'm telling you right now, I would rather be hit with a stab. The mechanics for stabbing just do not translate to the same amount of power as a strike WITH OUR WEAPONS. Yes I know that a well placed stab will be felt by someone and might even be uncomfortable, but it also delivers less traumatic crushing damage.

Here is a little math: (Pressure = Force/Area, Force = Mass*Acceleration)
1) If you could throw a 25mph stab (similar to a PROFESSIONAL boxers speed)
2) If your sword weighed 1lb
3) You delivered your blow in .5s

The pressure you would be exerting on a 1 inch area would be:
P=Ma/Area
P=(1lb)(v)/(t)(a)
P=(1lb)(25mph)/(.5s)(1 inch square)
P=(1lb)(73.333 ft)/(1 inch square)

P= 73.333 ft-lbs per square inch

Now if you assume:
1) If you could swing the sword at 90mph (similar to a PROFESSIONAL baseball players speed)
2) Your sword weighed 1lb
3) You delivered your blow in .5s

The pressure you would be exerting on a 1 inch area would be 3.6 times HIGHER than with a stab. Which means, if you are hitting an area that is 3.6 inches wide by 1 inch tall, you are hitting with the same amount of pressure in both cases.

Of course there are tons of intangibles to consider (insert sarcasm) such as 1) a stab is harder to connect with, 2) strikes more often than not will hit areas that are smaller than 3.6 square inches with great regularity increasing the strength of the blow or 3) the fact that it is MUCH easier to do actual trauma with a strike. My point is that anyone who is looking at standard tips and saying "these are tooooooooo dangerous", isn't looking at the big picture. Everyone should step out of the box and look at this again before deciding that something HAS to be added to the current tip technology.

by **Slagar** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:06 pm

My .02 - I agree with Angmarth and the Arnor method, for the most part. I use the new Edhellen stabbing tips on Bel fields, since those are the rules, but when I'm just messing around with my friends and my brothers, we check the swords to make sure they aren't failing, and then we just call them all stabbing-legal.

My brother has wound up and put every bit of force he could into a clean stab with an unmodified Edhellen blue (he's a wrestler, kick-boxer, MMA fighter, and martial arts nut) and it hurt. Why wouldn't it? But it didn't injure me, and the sting stopped in a few minutes. Welcome to "full-contact fighting". Fortunately, many weapons checkers (leaving out individual names) have made it a point to stop screwing green tips, and as a result they're starting to make a come-back. Here's hoping this trend continues.

by **Sir Anastasia** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:55 pm

I think if the diameter of the core is >0.5" (either PVC 1/2" or penny blunted fiberglass), then it seems as though (generally), a sword can pass as stabbing provided that the amount of foam on its tip is the same as that on its striking side. I think Edhellen swords could pass unmodified, but they certainly feel better with a penny round top, and without the penny, the foam breaks down rather quickly if you stab with them.

This is the standard I use at my realm, I autofail anything with a diameter less than 1/2 inch for stabbing and then I hit test those weapons that meet the core diameter construction requirements.

I agree with many posts before me though, most inspections have been too harsh, I have been using the above rule for 10 years or more, and we have had no serious injuries from stabs.

-Anastasia of Chamonix

by **Arrakis** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:32 am

Anastasia, does that include weapons with square cores? I can make a pretty beastly, safe, stable stabbing tip (not too comfy, but better than solid blue) on a 3/8x3/8 square cross-section fiberglass core.

by **Sir Anastasia** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:33 am

Haven't worked with square cores. I know that a safe stabby can be made with smaller cores, but physics dictates that more force per area (pressure) is delivered on a smaller core. IE If someone hits with the same force every time, but the core is smaller on one weapon, either that weapon feels harder OR the foam underneath takes more pressure on impact, resulting in more wear on the tip. When the core has a greater area, force is distributed along that area, and generally the weapon have a safer and has a more resilient stabbing tip.

Math: Pressure=Force /Area
Force over 3/8" Core (in pounds per sqaure inch)> Force over 1/2" Core (in pounds per square inch)
Pressure Core 3/8">Pressure Core 1/2"

-Anastasia of Chamonix

by **Arrakis** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:52 am

*removed for uncalled-for meanness*

by **Derian** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:27 pm

How's does that work, Arrakis?

by **Sir Anastasia** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:34 pm

Apologies, didn't recognize your superior science skills from your posts. Also, didn't realize forum was only for you and that no one else would be able to view this and find this information useful. Wow...I must seem like such a jerk.

by **Arrakis** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:04 pm

No no...

I was extremely low on calories and was in crash-bitch mode.

Apologies.

by **Big King Jimmy** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:21 am

Angmarth wrote:I think that people are WAY to stringent on stabbing tips. While I may be on the extreme end of the spectrum on what I think is safe, let me put it in another way.

There have been a lot of people mentioned as "hard" hitters. For ease of discussion, and because most people know who he is, I will use Peter the Quick.

If Peter the Quick were using a standard sword and swinging as "hard as he could" without impediment how would you like to be struck? Would you prefer he hit you with a stab or a strike? I'm telling you right now, I would rather be hit with a stab. The mechanics for stabbing just do not translate to the same amount of power as a strike WITH OUR WEAPONS. Yes I know that a well placed stab will be felt by someone and might even be uncomfortable, but it also delivers less traumatic crushing damage.

Here is a little math: (Pressure = Force/Area, Force = Mass*Acceleration)
1) If you could throw a 25mph stab (similar to a PROFESSIONAL boxers speed)
2) If your sword weighed 1lb
3) You delivered your blow in .5s

The pressure you would be exerting on a 1 inch area would be:
P=Ma/Area
P=(1lb)(v)/(t)(a)
P=(1lb)(25mph)/(.5s)(1 inch square)
P=(1lb)(73.333 ft)/(1 inch square)

P= 73.333 ft-lbs per square inch

Now if you assume:
1) If you could swing the sword at 90mph (similar to a PROFESSIONAL baseball players speed)
2) Your sword weighed 1lb
3) You delivered your blow in .5s

The pressure you would be exerting on a 1 inch area would be 3.6 times HIGHER than with a stab. Which means, if you are hitting an area that is 3.6 inches wide by 1 inch tall, you are hitting with the same amount of pressure in both cases.

Of course there are tons of intangibles to consider (insert sarcasm) such as 1) a stab is harder to connect with, 2) strikes more often than not will hit areas that are smaller than 3.6 square inches with great regularity increasing the strength of the blow or 3) the fact that it is MUCH easier to do actual trauma with a strike. My point is that anyone who is looking at standard tips and saying "these are tooooooooo dangerous", isn't looking at the big picture. Everyone should step out of the box and look at this again before deciding that something HAS to be added to the current tip technology.

Having experienced both, as anyone at the few mux practices he was at can attest to, I'd MUCH rather be hit. Peter aims for the solar plexus. :cry:

by **Sir Anastasia** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:33 pm

Arrakis wrote:No no...

I was extremely low on calories and was in crash-* mode.

Apologies.

Forgiven. Hypoglycemia makes me a * too.
-Ana

by **Sir Killian** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:02 am

angmarth- where did you get your math variables....
simplicity--- the fastest way between two points is a straight line...
i can stab a **** ton faster then i can swing...
and with a smaller striking area and all the weight behind the stab it is more powerful... so that pressure you talked about would be delivered to a smaller area

with a swing you hit with more mass but you are also spreading that pressure out over a larger area...and to boot the weight behind the weapon is on a different axis

just curious

by **Angmarth** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:01 am

I pulled my information from some sports science articles (for the speeds). I could look it up again if you really wanted to know.

I used a 1in x 1in area for a stab, because that would represent the surface area you would actually get hit with. I used a 1in x 3in reference for the swing, because that about the area (depending on what is struck) that you would be hit with.

In a stab, it is much more difficult to hit a target solidly. This isn't about how quickly you can hit someone, it is about the velocity of the sword at the time of impact. Whether or not it takes longer to get there (because the distance traveled is greater) isn't a factor in this particular discussion.

If you wanted to test this yourself in a crude fashion you could set up a simple test. Set up a baseball on a tee and then 2 hand stab it. Next, 2 hand swing it. You can argue that a ball is too small, but I say that you can take a basketball and do the same thing. The amount of power generated by a swing is far greater and more accurate than any stab. MAYBE there is some Master Fencer out there who can skewer you with a stab, but there are always exceptions.

This is my opinion of course.

by **Oisin** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:29 pm

I haven't really read the math, but from anecdotal experience, I have to say that I agree with Angmarth.

I know this may not come as much of a surprise, considering that I'm also from Arnor, but we've been doing this for years, and no one's ever gotten hurt by it. I'm a skinny guy, and not heavily built or particularly pain-tolerant, but I've never had a problem with it. Our fighters run the gamut from massive, heavy guys to small, skinny chicks, and I've never heard a complaint from anyone.

by **Loptr** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:07 am

So it seems that the nut of this topic is.

Its not a rules issue * but a weapon checker issue.

How does one go about helping the wepon checkers at events come to the realization that they are being (insert proper word) overly stringent.

Without some kind of clarification in the rules it seems that there will continue to be "ignorance" on behalf of these individuals. The individual that approches a checker about why a weapon failed may or may not get an intelligent answer. the checker may or may not respect the question and not consider it a threat to their authority.

In lieu of a rule * what about the passing of a "non rule" that states to the effect: "Hey wepon checkers the realms deem stabbys desirable take a chill pill with inspections."?

Loptr

by **Arrakis** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:12 am

The best thing to do is to volunteer to run or assist with weapons check and let stiffer stabbies on the field. Talk to the head heralds in your realms and assist with hit-testing, discuss the current national trends and your personal feelings, see if they're giong to an event where someone like Peter or Bo will be to check out their weapons and see what the new "safe" standard is....

etc.

by **Derian** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:13 pm

Arrakis his it right on the head.

Help check weapons, or if that's not your cup of tea, get someone who agrees with you on stabbing tips to check.

Overtime people will realize that uncomfortable can still be safe.

by **Sir Killian** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:57 pm

Angmarth wrote:Words

thanks Angmarth... i still think a stab hurts more.... but i agree a hack does more damage

by **Rasheab** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:32 am

I agree with Killian. While it hurts bad to get hit by a two handed swing, jumping onto a stabbing tip (or jumping and stabbing someone) hurts more.

I totally want ALOT more stabbing tips on the field (I agree that stabbing tips don't have to be "comfy"). I just disagree that we should allow completely unmodified tips.

by **Chicken** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:23 am

I think the difference in how they feel has less to do with contact area than with the mechanics of the motion. When you swing, the weapon is perpendicular to the direction of motion and point of impact, which makes it hard to prevent it from bouncing back off (though this is less true with a red). With a stab, the weapon is nearly in line with the direction of motion and point of impact, which means it'll either slide off, make the attacker bend their arm, or drive the stabee back. The second two will both tend to result in a harder hit.

Luckily, blue stabbing tips are small enough that they do tend to slide (when they don't hit you in the gut at least), but I think that's what's missed when you just compare mass, speed, and surface area.

I know I can drive someone back with a spear better than I can with a glaive if I have the reach to stab "through" them - if I put my body weight into a stab it really doesn't matter how scrawny my arms are, the person on the other end is moving.

by **Big King Jimmy** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:13 am

I've been kinda paying attention to the areas people are from when the post about overly strict weapons checking for stab tips, and with a few exceptions it seems like it's partially east vs west (in IL at least, it's almost not even a problem anymore), I haven't heard many people from TN chime in one way or the other, but when people talk about not being able to get any kind of a stab through weapons check, they're usually from the west.

Just a thought, not trying to drive a wedge.

by **Arrakis** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:28 am

At least when I started out down there, people in Dur-D wanted my stab tips to be soooopa squeeeshy. So much so that the ones that passed with ease onto Dur-D's field (when I bothered to hunt down someone who probably had the authority to not pass my weapons...) fail on event fields for foldover.

*shrug* I was also, like, the only person on the field with a stab-tip most of the time, excepting spears and the occasional glaive.

by **Loptr** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:40 am

a round blade is gonna have to be easier to stick a stabby on since it has more surface area, tus less likely to fold over....

Going to experiment with this, everyone is gonna think its one of my noodle swords, till they get hit with it. :angel:

L

by **Arrakis** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:45 am

Speedbats with stab-tips, yeah. Izzy rocks those sorts of things, as do a few other DurD Horde cats.

by **Satanaka** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:09 pm

I'd have to say that Marine foam makes the best stabbing tips.

It is hard to build and not to many people can build a good blue/ green sword.I do not think the swords you can buy are safe to stabb- right out of the box (bar the new tech for stab- I have yet to get a good look at them).

I don't think the math stuff is considering the amount of force vs a smaller striking area.

Safety with stabbing has/ is a call that Heralds make. I like to use an 'average' fighter to test weapons on. This way- you don't get the far right or far left in regards to hit threshhold. So- the 'Average' fighter should be a good template NOT the hardest core fighter on the block.

Not attack Mike in Arnor- If I had a choice as to where to have my wife fight: Arnor VS Wolfpack or DD or Iowa or Wisconsin - I would pick any except Arnor. I think it would be safer. I think that goes with the way 'they' or the realm leaders want to play. I think you can tell a lot about safety via the people there.

With spears- they are built just for stabbing- most swords that are both Blue/ Green break down faster due to the way they are used- force on the side and from the top.

I don't think it is an issue of "we have always..." or that "weapon checkers are wussies"- I think it is a mater of safety and that a good Herald does NOT want any one to get hurt. If I have a question on a weapon (IE I think it hurts) I get a second opinion. I do not think all people share this vision or outlook- I am not sure why not. I know people like to fight hard- that's cool- but at what expense to we get the 'hard fighting'?

by **Angmarth** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:47 pm

There is no price to be paid. In St. Louis you have 3 choices of reinactment combat... Amtgard, Belegarth and the SCA. Each offers something completely different and there is some crossover between them. With this symbiotic relationship in place, there is no desire on any front to "change" one game to another. If someone at Amtgard wants to come out and grapple with us or swing sticks at your head they simply go to one of the other groups that week. It is the same for the other groups (Bel or SCA) if they desire something different or want to change up their pace.

by **Elebrim** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:21 pm

Angmarth wrote:If you wanted to test this yourself in a crude fashion you could set up a simple test. Set up a baseball on a tee and then 2 hand stab it. Next, 2 hand swing it. You can argue that a ball is too small, but I say that you can take a basketball and do the same thing. The amount of power generated by a swing is far greater and more accurate than any stab. MAYBE there is some Master Fencer out there who can skewer you with a stab, but there are always exceptions.

I don't think this example is accurate to the situation, as the baseball/basketball have less mass and are movable. They are simply reacting to the relevant force; in such a situation, a swing would consistently translate more force and motion to the ball than a thrust. Human bodies, however, are much more dense and less responsive to that same force. The issue isn't relative force, but force absorption by the target. That force absorption is what can cause pain or injury, if my understanding of body mechanics is correct.

Swings translate a large amount of force over a wide area, and the force is absorbed and diffused by a larger area of the body. But stabs take that same force and apply it to a much smaller area. The 1"x1" square mentioned earlier is the entire focus of the stab, and at a high velocity that is a large amount of force being absorbed and diffused by a disproportionately small area of human tissue on impact. There's a much larger risk of injury, hence why sword tips are checked to make sure that the tip is safe.

The safe nature of a stabbing tip helps to reduce the impact effects of that force by diffusing the impact. They can and should be firm and still be OK to diffuse force, but they do still have to be safe. Standard Edhellen swords just weren't built with the structure to handle any sort of force diffusion; adding that square of marine foam makes a noticeable difference.

by **Thomas MacFinn** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:10 pm

I don't want to muddy the water too much as I like thrusts but I've found an extra hand on the pommel combined with a firm thrust is an excellent way to break a charge. I just can't do that with a swing no matter how hard I swing.

The biggest problem with this is people that angle their shield so that the thrust slides up the shield into their face.

by **Satanaka** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:01 pm

And I am sure that if 20 SCA guys came over and started fighting with the Belegarth group with their way of fighting- yall would be "ok" with that. I am sure that Arnor is closer to being SCA than most other Belegarth groups. (easy cross over)
BUT- If 20 guys from SCA came to most other Belegarth groups and wanted to play- they would play Belegarth- NOT SCA...

Looking back at some other post- it's not a matter of hard fighting but of simple safety. If the 20 SCA people stepped on a Belegarth field and started fighting- I am sure ther would be some issues. I'd say there would be some major issues with the SCA trying to play SCA on the Amtgard field. I know my own experience in all three of these games- I have to adjust my fighting style and method.

It's great to be able to play on different fields- and DIFFERENT FIELDS is a good way to keep it. I don't go to Amtgard and swing like I do at Belegarth. I could see people getting hurt as well as getting myself kicked off the field.

Angmarth wrote:There is no price to be paid. In St. Louis you have 3 choices of reinactment combat... Amtgard, Belegarth and the SCA. Each offers something completely different and there is some crossover between them. With this symbiotic relationship in place, there is no desire on any front to "change" one game to another. If someone at Amtgard wants to come out and grapple with us or swing sticks at your head they simply go to one of the other groups that week. It is the same for the other groups (Bel or SCA) if they desire something different or want to change up their pace.

by **Angmarth** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:21 pm

I'm not sure what your point is Saki.

You stated earlier that there was some mythical price to be paid for playing a certain way.

I replied with "that isn't true" because we simply point people in the direction of the game (or the way) they want to play.

I'm not sure what your last post has to do with either of those things.

by **Big King Jimmy** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:33 pm

Saki I think you misunderstood Angmarth, he never said that SCA people fight SCA on a belegarth field. The only thing that I know of that Arnor does remotely unsafe is use Edhellen swords standard as stabby. And that's something that both Amtgard AND the SCA do (SCA has a little modification, Amtgard has none from a standard sword.) He doesn't say they come out in SCA armor and swing rattan on the same field as Bel guys are swinging foam stick.

by **debuenzo** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:54 pm

I'm going to agree with Elebrim. I don't think Angmarth's "baseball on a string" scenario is accurate.
I understand that more momentum might be transfered to the ball, but I don't know about the force, because like chicken said, the direction of the attack makes a difference.

I'll provide another scenario/ test.

Set a pillow against a door. Swing at it. See how hard you have to swing to effectively "hit" the door behind it. Now stab the pillow. See how hard you have to stab to "hit" the door. I imagine that the thud will be much louder and the pillow will compress much more quickly and completely with a stab, which is probably why Killian and others think a stab hurts more.
Or another scenario/ test.
Punch the pillow directiy. Then swing your arm overhead like a clubbing motion. The same mechanics apply, I think. See what results as far as contact with the door.

by **bo1** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:45 am

well if you want to use meaningless examples, get a scale.

now push with the striking surface about 2" from the tip and see what kind of number you get. now do the same with a stab. i will bet you can double the force with a stab than a swing. the idea is there are 2 forces at work, different in each attack. arrakis will correct me if i am wrong, but i think i have a grasp.

a stab is a more static push, lots of force with little kenetic energy.
a swing is a collision, has little force with tons of kenetic energy.

the real question is, which one is more likely to cause an injury? and also perhaps pain is more likely than injury, so which causes more pain?

arrakis please correct me if i am wrong, i know you are probibly picking an equation to explain this.

by **Elwrath** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:39 am

well someone from out here in the west that i've fought seen i've started using home made stabbing tips might disagree with me (but they certainly didn't say anything to my face). But i've made home made stabbing tips that work just fine (on a blue sword) that don't get any complaints for stabbing to hard...i really don't think i need to say anything else.

Belegarth

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