incidental contact

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incidental contact

Postby Satanaka » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:54 pm

Please define "incidental contact"
:devil:

In regard to the rule dealing with shield contact with the shield on someone's back...
Last edited by Satanaka on Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: incidental contact

Postby Derian » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:57 pm

Moved as this really isn't a War Council discussion topic.
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Re: incidental contact

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:01 pm

incidental: Loosely associated; existing as a byproduct, tangent, or accident. That character, though colorful, is incidental to the overall plot.

contact: The act of touching physically.

Incidental contact: The inadvertant contact of non-striking areas with an opponent during the normal action of combat.
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Re: incidental contact

Postby Satanaka » Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:13 pm

So- in relation to contact to the back- what is it???



Soo Ma Tai wrote:incidental: Loosely associated; existing as a byproduct, tangent, or accident. That character, though colorful, is incidental to the overall plot.

contact: The act of touching physically.

Incidental contact: The inadvertant contact of non-striking areas with an opponent during the normal action of combat.
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Re: incidental contact

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:46 pm

I don't really understand the question Saki, do you mean were someone to swing at an opponents back, where could incidental padding hit you?
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Re: incidental contact

Postby Big King Jimmy » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:51 pm

"3.5.4.3. A person may not Bash or Check an opponent's rear quadrant. Shield pushing or incidental contact in an opponents rear quadrant is allowed."

Soo Ma Tai wrote:incidental: Loosely associated; existing as a byproduct, tangent, or accident. That character, though colorful, is incidental to the overall plot.

contact: The act of touching physically.

Incidental contact: The inadvertant contact of non-striking areas with an opponent during the normal action of combat.
s rear quadrant is allowed."[/quote]

I would say contact existing as an accident. ie: if you trip and fall forward into someones back while holding a shield, no one is going to call you dead. If someone pushes you from behind, and you bump the guy in front of you's back, no ones getting bent out of shape.
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Re: incidental contact

Postby Satanaka » Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:23 pm

Incidental "bashing, checking , etc" from behind. So- I lay you out and got "woops my bad" type of thing.





Soo Ma Tai wrote:I don't really understand the question Saki, do you mean were someone to swing at an opponents back, where could incidental padding hit you?
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Re: incidental contact

Postby Thomas MacFinn » Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:12 am

Satanaka wrote:Can I be an a ss and get away with it?


Marshal's don't need a rules reason to throw you off the field. It is the very first rule on the sheet.

1. Adjudication
1.1. Marshal - Person responsible for rules enforcement and weapons inspection.
1.1.1. A Marshal has the authority to remove anyone from the field of battle.
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Re: incidental contact

Postby Satanaka » Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:22 am

What????And how long will you last on the field till your crying to someone- cause I kicked you off the field for just "because"????

If A Herald/ marshall's duty is to enforce rules and weapons inspection- (and keeping the field safe) I think that the reason for removing someone has to fall with in one of those reasons there Thomas MacFinn. Don't you agree? What rules are you reading?

What idiot goes around kicking people off the field for no reason? Why are they a herald and why are they still in our game???


Thomas MacFinn said Marshal's don't need a rules reason to throw you off the field. It is the very first rule on the sheet.


1. Adjudication
1.1. Marshal - Person responsible for rules enforcement and weapons inspection.
1.1.1. A Marshal has the authority to remove anyone from the field of battle.
[/quote]
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Re: incidental contact

Postby Thomas MacFinn » Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:37 am

Satanaka wrote:What idiot goes around kicking people off the field for no reason? Why are they a herald and why are they still in our game???


If Judas or Coach (our local marshals) toss somebody off the field, it is usually just for a battle or two and they will usually pull the guy off to the side and explain why after he has calmed down. They have that authority because the rest of us trusted their judgement enough to give them that authority when we made them marshals.
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Re: incidental contact

Postby Thomas MacFinn » Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:56 am

To give you a couple real-world examples, I've been tossed off the field twice during practice.

The first time, during the middle of a battle, Judas yelled out "Thomas, you're dead." Our local rule is that if you want to discuss something with the marshal, the discussion takes place after the battle. I dropped, as instructed.

I was a new fighter and hadn't noticed a nice clean shot to my right side that occured while I was bashing somebody's shield with my left shoulder. After the battle, Judas explained that he normally doesn't call fighters dead but he knew that I was new and was used to SCA fighting and went over blow calibration with me.

By exerting his authority for 5 seconds during a battle and taking 10 minutes with me after, he avoided a lot of unintentional rhino-hiding for what could have been a long time.

The second time I was thrown off the field, I was tired and swinging a heavy red sword. My blows were getting wild and I clocked the same guy in the ear twice less than ten minutes apart. The other guy lost his temper and Coach made us both "take a breather."

During that ten minutes we both calmed down, I caught my breath, apologized to the guy I had hit and we asked Coach if we could fight again.

You can argue the letter of the rules all you want, but this is a sport played among friends. No matter how hard we play or how many scrapes and bruises we earn my opponent is not, and should not be, my enemy and I have no problems with the marshals keeping it that way.
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Re: incidental contact

Postby Satanaka » Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:06 am

You just proved my point- and backed my remarks- Thank you. Keep up the good work.



Thomas MacFinn wrote:To give you a couple real-world examples, I've been tossed off the field twice during practice.

The first time, during the middle of a battle, Judas yelled out "Thomas, you're dead." Our local rule is that if you want to discuss something with the marshal, the discussion takes place after the battle. I dropped, as instructed.

I was a new fighter and hadn't noticed a nice clean shot to my right side that occured while I was bashing somebody's shield with my left shoulder. After the battle, Judas explained that he normally doesn't call fighters dead but he knew that I was new and was used to SCA fighting and went over blow calibration with me.

By exerting his authority for 5 seconds during a battle and taking 10 minutes with me after, he avoided a lot of unintentional rhino-hiding for what could have been a long time.

The second time I was thrown off the field, I was tired and swinging a heavy red sword. My blows were getting wild and I clocked the same guy in the ear twice less than ten minutes apart. The other guy lost his temper and Coach made us both "take a breather."

During that ten minutes we both calmed down, I caught my breath, apologized to the guy I had hit and we asked Coach if we could fight again.

You can argue the letter of the rules all you want, but this is a sport played among friends. No matter how hard we play or how many scrapes and bruises we earn my opponent is not, and should not be, my enemy and I have no problems with the marshals keeping it that way.
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Re: incidental contact

Postby Satanaka » Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:13 am

Thomas- maybe if you re-read the post above- you might understand better- Your remark was: "Marshal's don't need a rules reason to throw you off the field. It is the very first rule on the sheet."

But- all your example are of a Herald that is: " A Herald/ marshall's duty is to enforce rules and weapons inspection- (and keeping the field safe) I think that the reason for removing someone has to fall with in one of those reasons..."

Just as I said.

Are you getting something mixed up there?





Thomas MacFinn wrote:
Satanaka wrote:What idiot goes around kicking people off the field for no reason? Why are they a herald and why are they still in our game???


If Judas or Coach (our local marshals) toss somebody off the field, it is usually just for a battle or two and they will usually pull the guy off to the side and explain why after he has calmed down. They have that authority because the rest of us trusted their judgement enough to give them that authority when we made them marshals.
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Re: incidental contact

Postby Thomas MacFinn » Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:19 am

My point was that the marshals don't owe you an explanation when they kick you off the field. When a marshal says get off the field, get off until he decides to come over and explain why.

Most marshals I've met are calm reasonable people, but if you p* him off, he is allowed to wait until he is calmed down before explaining to you why you are cooling your heels on the sidelines.

Go out of your way to bend the rules (by, for example, bashing people in the back) and I guarantee our marshals will have you on the sidelines, even if you say "oops" when you do it.
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Re: incidental contact

Postby Satanaka » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:27 am

Thanks again- that is my point- "incidental VS on purpose"- I think it's gonna be hard. That's why I was asking for a wider meaning for 'incidental'.
I'd kick both incidental and "on purpose" off the field. Then talk with them- the incidental might be let back on the field- but I doubt the "on purpose" would be...


Thomas MacFinn wrote:for example, bashing people in the back) .


Also if your point was: "...That Heralds can kick you off without an explanation.."

then why say: "Marshal's don't need a rules reason to throw you off the field. It is the very first rule on the sheet." You agree that they DO NEED A REASON. A good Herald can call someone dead and also say "Arrow to the back" and still keep Heralding.

Agree?
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Re: incidental contact

Postby Theros the Large » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:56 am

Why is this such a huge issue? I have not seen an incident of a back area shield bash in years. It is listed explicitly in our rules that you can not bash or check from the rear. The rule is clear and written in plain english.

Incidental contact is minor or accidental. Bashing or checking do not fall under "Incidental".

I doubt that I would ever throw someone off the field for bumping into someone from the rear with their shield. A bash or check is another issue.
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Re: incidental contact

Postby Thomas MacFinn » Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:05 pm

My experiance is limited, but I've never seen a fighter (myself included) who agreed with the marshal's reasons at the time he was sent to the sidelines.

In my second example, the guy thrown off the field with me thought it was horribly unfair that he was thrown off the field when he was the guy getting hit. At the time, I thought the guy needed some time out to get his temper under control but felt I was fine. In the end "the marshal said so" trumps either of our opinions on the matter.

You asked about the limits of incidental contact and Big Jimmy gave an excellent answer over a week ago.

I would say contact existing as an accident. ie: if you trip and fall forward into someones back while holding a shield, no one is going to call you dead. If someone pushes you from behind, and you bump the guy in front of you's back, no ones getting bent out of shape.
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Re: incidental contact

Postby Satanaka » Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:36 pm

And even then- they had a reason. not JUST "becasue I said"...

Thomas MacFinn wrote: In the end "the marshal said so" trumps either of our opinions on the matter.


It's not- it was a question- right after ANOTHER UNNEEDED RULE was created. As you said- "...I have not seen an incident of a back area shield bash in years..." It is listed explicitly in our rules that you can not bash or check from the rear. The rule is clear and written in plain english..." BUT- we had to create a new rule that states the same thing with people with shield on their backs.- so- I wondered what would be considered "incidental'. I was sorta looking at the amount of force no matter the intent.


Theros said: Why is this such a huge issue?
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