Method to Madness

[Satanaka]

OK- Method to Madness:
I have seen over just a little while- people wanting to get rid of anything that does not benifit a 'stick jock'. Matter of fact- it does look a lot like to me- that certain people are wanting to turn Belegarth rules into HACKS rules.

So- man up- if that is what you are doing- have the balls to admit it. Be forward and in the open instead of all the little sneaky political manuvers. Be that overagressive ego and just say that's what ya want.

heck- 90% don't even care or realise (untill to late) they just want to play and have fun. Then- not to many are going to stand up and question most of you (well except crazy me). Some have already said that the state of Belegarth is to "*" or "Wussy" now and they want it tougher, harder, etc, etc. So- Admit it.

[Loptr]

Your poll is clearly slated to your personal views.

Let me ponder this a bit and I will post a few more poll options that perhaps are valid considerations also. Or perhaps others can present additional poll options that are relevant choices you may have neglected or didnt think of.

L

[Cyric]

There is no conspiracy, save in your own mind. No one is trying to turn the game into HACS. Hell, HACS doesn't even exist anymore. All of the rule changes that have come about have been voted on democratically by all realms, just as it has always been. Most of these rules have failed, and the status quo has been maintained. The people playing the game are changing, and so the game itself is bound to change as well. Rather than cling to tradition and * and moan about every new idea coming down the pipe, you should cast your vote like everyone else. But claiming that there is some kind of conspiracy is just ridiculous.

[Satanaka]

It just SEEMS like some of the "newest and greatest ideas" that have come down the pike from certain people- wow- do run inline with what people thought would make HACKS so great. And since these things keep coming up so often- and as often said- if we did not win this time- comvince some more people and bring it up the next time.

No cyric- I don't think it is a conspiracy- but I think these ideas are moving in a wrong direction. As you many know- 90% or more of the people have no interest in voting or even being part of the process- all they want to do is play and have fun. So that leaves it up to people that 1) have an agenda, or 2) just want to actuall help. I'll use Arnor as an example- to me- they are sorta far to the right- with Numenor not to far behind- so compare Arnor to Wolfpack- I think wolfpack is closer to being the spirit of Belegarth and Arnor being mostly stick jocks or closer to HACKS. You do agree that Arnor is closer to being HACKS than Wolfpack- don't you Cyric?

I don't want to see AL belegarth become Arnor- but the rules that seem to keep coming up are more in line with that. I'd rather Belegarth stay closer to Wolfpack.
So Cyric- do you want to see Belegarth more like Arnor or Wolfpack?

and in case you mis spoke or I mis understood- WC is who votes on these matters Cyric- NOT every member of Belegarth. Did I state there was a conspiracy? Also- 1 more thing- stating your opinion and your thoughts are not considered * else- you'd never get to speak. Right?

There is no conspiracy, save in your own mind. No one is trying to turn the game into HACS. Hell, HACS doesn't even exist anymore. All of the rule changes that have come about have been voted on democratically by all realms, just as it has always been. Most of these rules have failed, and the status quo has been maintained. The people playing the game are changing, and so the game itself is bound to change as well. Rather than cling to tradition and * and moan about every new idea coming down the pipe, you should cast your vote like everyone else. But claiming that there is some kind of conspiracy is just ridiculous.

[Thomas MacFinn]

We all have pet peeves and opinions that we would like other people to share. Some people yell their opinions, some people just quietly refuse to yield. I know for certain that I have one that I will never conceed.

Martial arts and combat sports of all types will always have bullies, the timid, the uncoordinated, the enthusiastic but fragile, and the loud but secretly kind. We each have to decide how to deal with all of them.

[Rasheab]

What rule changes are you speaking of, Satanaka? (And are you writing in all bold?)

[Black Cat]

I thought that HACKS was something that people do when they cough...

Seriously though, I was actually around (on the boards) when they tried to make HACS (spelled without a K) a reality. That was around the same time the crash-and-burn-boards, eh, I mean Fireboards were being tested out. I stopped hearing about it a few months after we got phpBB back and haven't heard hide nor hair of it outside of rules-change political lingo usage since.

[Big King Jimmy]

Okay, back round info.

HACS was largely affiliated with Edhellen.

Edhellen is headed by Kegg.

Kegg is King (maybe a different title?) of Numinor.

HACS (Historically Accurate Combat System) had some key rules differences, but was largely similar to Belegarth. It had a much more stick jock mentality, based around competition with cash prizes. One year at Octfest they ran a 10 man tourney with a $400 first place prize.

I don't remember the rules 100%, but I believe that stabs and hacks did the same damage, and I know that when you got hit in the leg you didn't go down to a knee, you dragged that leg.

There were also 5 levels of combat, based on... sort of how safe it was. At level 5 there were legal headshots (with helmets.)

[Satanaka]

Mostly- so I can see it- puter issues on my side...
sorry- if it comes across like yelling (all caps) I'll stop.

What rule changes are you speaking of, Satanaka? (And are you writing in all bold?)

[Satanaka]

And all I have said over the last 6 months is that it seems that the talks and motions dealing with rule changes, rule adding, and new "interpretaions" - look like they lead to a lot of the HACS system same type of rules.

AND with statments like : "...If you don't like the way it is (a game for physicaly adept people to hit each other very hard with foam version of weapons) then get the **** out. If little sickly people are afraid they will get hurt on the field, they should stay the **** off it... FB"

It sure sounds like it. That's what I have said.

see Jimmy- no colors.
And thanks for your post. Really.

...HACS (Historically Accurate Combat System) had some key rules differences, but was largely similar to Belegarth. It had a much more stick jock mentality, based around competition with cash prizes.
I don't remember the rules 100%, but I believe that stabs and hacks did the same damage, and I know that when you got hit in the leg you didn't go down to a knee, you dragged that leg.

There were also 5 levels of combat, based on... sort of how safe it was. At level 5 there were legal headshots (with helmets.)

[Soo Ma Tai]

I can tell you that FB has no intention of trying to make Belegarth into HACS. I know him personally and prolly better than nearly any other belegarth player. FB, like myself, feel that on certain issues, like stabbing tips, that somehow, over time, people have become pussified about them. A stab tip does not need to be a cushy pillow to be safe is all he is saying. That we should relax ~a bit~ in stab tip requirements is what both he and I are advocating, not that this should be HACS.

As far as stabs and hacks being the same damage, IDK about that one, not my bag baby. I like the stab drules the way they are. I am not really sure what other rules changes/modification you are referring to. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to the specifics of your conspiracy theory, cause I am just not seeing it at all.

[Big King Jimmy]

Also, things have to be put in perspective. Soo Ma Tai and Forkbeard are both Western fighters who visit western events. They are not saying that eastern stabbing tip checking should be toned down. So really, if you've never been to a western event, you don't really have a perspective on what they're trying to accomplish. It does, though, sound like western stab tip tech is behind the east's. Or, that their checking has become much more strict than ours. Most of the complaints about stab tip checking I hear about are from the west, not the east.

[Black Cat]

Also, things have to be put in perspective. Soo Ma Tai and Forkbeard are both Western fighters who visit western events. They are not saying that eastern stabbing tip checking should be toned down. So really, if you've never been to a western event, you don't really have a perspective on what they're trying to accomplish. It does, though, sound like western stab tip tech is behind the east's. Or, that their checking has become much more strict than ours. Most of the complaints about stab tip checking I hear about are from the west, not the east.

Good point. I haven't been out east to know what their checking standards are like, but I do know that they've been ridiculous here in the west in recent years.

As for western standards;

Requiring open-cell foam for a stab-tip to be legal? What the hell is that? Do you know how unsafe a single-boxed weapon with an open-cell stabby is? The tip isn't strong enough to support the extra weight and leverage of the open-cell, so the closed-cell foam around the tip weakens and the stab-tip structurally fails, if not entirely rips off. This almost invariably exposes core, which is highly unsafe by any reasonable standard. I have witnessed this on my own swords several times and I've heard of it happening to plenty of other foamsmiths as well. It's not hard to make these pillow-soft tips fail. All you have to do is whack stuff for a while, and they'll be right on their way to failure before you know it.

Using all closed-cell foam for single-boxed blue/green or (short) red/green weapons is what needs to be done to make them safe. As long as the tip is solid, no core can be felt through the foam, and it doesn't hit harder than a solid blue strike is allowed to hit, they should pass.

[Elebrim]

Requiring open-cell foam for a stab-tip to be legal? What the hell is that? Do you know how unsafe a single-boxed weapon with an open-cell stabby is? The tip isn't strong enough to support the extra weight and leverage of the open-cell, so the closed-cell foam around the tip weakens and the stab-tip structurally fails, if not entirely rips off. This almost invariably exposes core, which is highly unsafe by any reasonable standard. I have witnessed this on my own swords several times and I've heard of it happening to plenty of other foamsmiths as well. It's not hard to make these pillow-soft tips fail. All you have to do is whack stuff for a while, and they'll be right on their way to failure before you know it.

Using all closed-cell foam for single-boxed blue/green or (short) red/green weapons is what needs to be done to make them safe. As long as the tip is solid, no core can be felt through the foam, and it doesn't hit harder than a solid blue strike is allowed to hit, they should pass.

I see what you're saying about the single-boxed stabbies. We failed more than a few swords at Beltaine that were built in that way (box, open cell, outer sword layer wrapped over the top of the whole shebang) for not being structurally able to handle the stab.

However, I don't agree that all closed-cell will do the job either. Sometimes it can be safe, as it has been suggested here, but universally I think it would be a recipe for pain (especially with red weapons). There are methods of building that integrate the softer marine or open-cell into a stable design; tech advances can and should make our weapons both safer and more durable. The two extremes - Pillow-soft or football-on-a-stick style tips vs. all closed-cell tips - aren't the only way.

I would link to examples, but I am tired and cannot see quite straight.

[Black Cat]

Requiring open-cell foam for a stab-tip to be legal? What the hell is that? Do you know how unsafe a single-boxed weapon with an open-cell stabby is? The tip isn't strong enough to support the extra weight and leverage of the open-cell, so the closed-cell foam around the tip weakens and the stab-tip structurally fails, if not entirely rips off. This almost invariably exposes core, which is highly unsafe by any reasonable standard. I have witnessed this on my own swords several times and I've heard of it happening to plenty of other foamsmiths as well. It's not hard to make these pillow-soft tips fail. All you have to do is whack stuff for a while, and they'll be right on their way to failure before you know it.

Using all closed-cell foam for single-boxed blue/green or (short) red/green weapons is what needs to be done to make them safe. As long as the tip is solid, no core can be felt through the foam, and it doesn't hit harder than a solid blue strike is allowed to hit, they should pass.

I see what you're saying about the single-boxed stabbies. We failed more than a few swords at Beltaine that were built in that way (box, open cell, outer sword layer wrapped over the top of the whole shebang) for not being structurally able to handle the stab.

However, I don't agree that all closed-cell will do the job either. Sometimes it can be safe, as it has been suggested here, but universally I think it would be a recipe for pain (especially with red weapons). There are methods of building that integrate the softer marine or open-cell into a stable design; tech advances can and should make our weapons both safer and more durable. The two extremes - Pillow-soft or football-on-a-stick style tips vs. all closed-cell tips - aren't the only way.

I would link to examples, but I am tired and cannot see quite straight.

I was mostly referring to closed-cell only construction for blues. I guess I worded that wrong. A long blue or a small red would require a softer type of closed-cell foam to be put in place of where the open-cell would normally go for it to hit soft enough. Either Marine Foam like you suggested or that thick, squishy EVA stuff Forkbeard says he used. I'm guessing it would need to be about an inch thick for a mini-red, though I could be wrong since I haven't built one that way before.

Edit: I forgot to add that even on short blues, a closed-cell stab-tip needs to be thicker than the minimum 3-layers of blue foam that normally get put on a blue sword. The minimum amount I've seen mentioned on the boards for a closed-cell stab-tip is 5 layers of blue-foam. I'd venture a guess that that level of padding is for a short sword, or what us Aquilonians call a 'Butter Knife'.

[Loptr]

I can tell you that FB has no intention of trying to make Belegarth into HACS. I know him personally and prolly better than nearly any other belegarth player. FB, like myself, feel that on certain issues, like stabbing tips, that somehow, over time, people have become pussified about them. A stab tip does not need to be a cushy pillow to be safe is all he is saying. That we should relax ~a bit~ in stab tip requirements is what both he and I are advocating, not that this should be HACS.

Also, things have to be put in perspective. Soo Ma Tai and Forkbeard are both Western fighters who visit western events. They are not saying that eastern stabbing tip checking should be toned down. So really, if you've never been to a western event, you don't really have a perspective on what they're trying to accomplish. It does, though, sound like western stab tip tech is behind the east's. Or, that their checking has become much more strict than ours. Most of the complaints about stab tip checking I hear about are from the west, not the east.

Satanaka,

Reread the statements above. Especially Jimmy’s hell even Blackcat makes fairly good points. This is where my experience comes from is out west, and the ability to pass stabby 1-3 yrs ago was neigh impossible.
Again FB had a tip pass this last ThawBrawl that would not have passed local inspection in the not so recent past. This is directly associated with what a number of us perceive as overly restrictive inspection, it is my suggestion that until you have come out west and experienced first hand our situation (and the improvement that is occurring) then perhaps you are unqualified to discuss the merits of our situation.

These changes/improvements/relaxing of inspections has zero to do with making Bel unwelcoming to the peeps willing to participate in an aggressive dont take light shots heavy foam combat system.

Additionally you seem to have a lot of free time on your hands. If you have a personal problem with me feel free to reach out via pm for clarification. If you merely wish to continue the debate via PM. I don’t have the time, energy or desire to joust with you in this medium. It is my opinion that you flat out refuse to consider our situation and our points.

Spin response in 3….2….

L
Western Urik

[Angmarth]

This is quite possibly the most useless poll I have ever seen. I will not even grace it with a vote.

Look, just because FB or myself want a game to be physical, doesn't mean that we are some sort of elitist group that is weeding out members we deem unworthy. What I can tell you is that I will take someone that wants to play a physical game, and I will prepare them for the worst. I will show them how to avoid getting creamed. I will teach them how to fall. They will know what getting hit hard feels like, and will not be surprised by it. They will learn what to do if they get grabbed. You won't come out of Arnor being the end all be all most awesome fighter ever, but you will come out of Arnor knowing what the WORST part of the physical game can be and how to avoid being injured by it.

[Satanaka]

If this is true- that sheds a lot of light on the information and changes my understanding of the whole thing. I did not see it as an "East & West"- I thought it was a general issue. i know that I had the honor to talk with a few Western fighters at weapons check and we shared some info. So- that never crossed my mind. I know I don't look for a pillow stabbing tip.

damn- as much as I hate to say this- thanks Jimmy
(just joking about hating to say)- really - thank you.

Also, things have to be put in perspective. Soo Ma Tai and Forkbeard are both Western fighters who visit western events. They are not saying that eastern stabbing tip checking should be toned down. So really, if you've never been to a western event, you don't really have a perspective on what they're trying to accomplish. It does, though, sound like western stab tip tech is behind the east's. Or, that their checking has become much more strict than ours. Most of the complaints about stab tip checking I hear about are from the west, not the east.

[Satanaka]

So- would you say that you want most or all of Belegarth to be like Arnor?
If Arnor was rated a 9 on a scale of 1-9 for rough fighting- What number and realms are NOT rough enough in your opinion?

That will help and others- understand the "method to your madness"

This is quite possibly the most useless poll I have ever seen. I will not even grace it with a vote.

Look, just because FB or myself want a game to be physical, doesn't mean that we are some sort of elitist group that is weeding out members we deem unworthy. What I can tell you is that I will take someone that wants to play a physical game, and I will prepare them for the worst. I will show them how to avoid getting creamed. I will teach them how to fall. They will know what getting hit hard feels like, and will not be surprised by it. They will learn what to do if they get grabbed. You won't come out of Arnor being the end all be all most awesome fighter ever, but you will come out of Arnor knowing what the WORST part of the physical game can be and how to avoid being injured by it.

[Satanaka]

I did not know there was a difference- I don't remember anyone saying- "in the west" till now- which- it that was it- then- makes sense.

Reread the statements above. Especially Jimmy’s hell even Blackcat makes fairly good points. This is where my experience comes from is out west, and the ability to pass stabby 1-3 yrs ago was neigh impossible.

Shoot no- It was great to re-connect with you and remmber who you were.
Remember- "opinions are like..." No- it's not a matter of not considering- the post I have seen did not seem to clarify that it was ONLY a western problem.
And when I read something that sorta sounds like ".. well, next event- me and my friends are gonna volunteer to Herald-Check weapons so we can pass what we want at OUR standard..." and I hear this from mutiple people- it sounds like cheating.
Do you agree or not?

NOW- if this was said- "...we have an issue with weapons checkers in the west that need to be better trained or educated as to checking stabbing tips- we need to all get togethr and train our people and educate our people...."
I'd be all cool with that.

Does that make sense?

I am not trying to be a * or even play devil's advocate.

Additionally you seem to have a lot of free time on your hands. If you have a personal problem with me feel free to reach out via pm for clarification. If you merely wish to continue the debate via PM. I don’t have the time, energy or desire to joust with you in this medium. It is my opinion that you flat out refuse to consider our situation and our points.

[Olos]

Arnor isn't some realm full of crazies where all they do is shield bash each other to the face all day every practice. It may be a little more physical than your average realm, but for a small practice to live up to the punishment you can take at an event, it kind of has to be. I get hit/bashed a LOT more at any given event than at an Arnor practice.

Not to mention that most of the rules changes that they use are largely superficial. Basically, the only thing I have to remember is that I don't have to look like a retard when I get pierced in both arms.

Hell, even the stabbing rule doesnt come into play much at all, and if anything, helps me to learn how to deal with stabs a little better. about half the people at arnor usually have full armor, so yeah, single green for the win...

[Angmarth]

I enjoy the fact not everyone plays the same, it gives me an advantage in my mind. Whether or not that is true, is something you can only tell when you travel and fight. On a scale of 1-9, I would say we are somewhere at the 7 mark on the average. There are those I would classify as 9's, and those I would classify as 3's or 4's. I think on the average we MIGHT have more 9's than other groups that have a larger more diverse base, but that doesn't make us a "realm full of crazies" as Olos so eloquently put.

[Soo Ma Tai]

You must also realize Saki, that we had no idea this was only a western thing and could only assume it was the standard across the board. Until we found out that the eastern groups are not so stringent about the stab tips, we could only guess that it was SOP to expect a pillow for a stab tip.

[Satanaka]

Thank you Mike for this last post- that helps me 'understand' better.
I know I NEVER said arnor was full of crazies- so- yall better not start saying I said that. I have faught you- your brother and a few other from Arnor (including your ex).
In my experience over the years- I have NOT had a personel issue as far as fighting anyone from down your way - BUT- I also don't think I use to fit the 'average' Belegarth fighter.

I love hard fighting- I think that seems to be a misconception- you know this (we might disagree on Honor- but that's different)

Soo Ma Tai- thanks- that's cool- I was wondering why it seemed like all this made no sense- JUst with that piece of knowledge- it changes the whole conversation. Of course- it also seemed that some of yall- did not try to even see what I ment. I do try to look at it from other's viewpoints as well as a third viewpoint.

Thank you both.

Allen

[Forkbeard]

It's nice when people listen to reason. Thank you for being more open minded than I thought, Sir.
What my post about weapon checking meant was, if we don't like how they do it, let's get involved and change things. That's our responsbility as pat of this comunity. Of course we don't want to pass unsafe weapons. My wife fights, man. We to want change the process of inspection of stab tips at the events we go to to reflect the changes you guys have made over the last few years. We are behind the times out here and so are several other outying areas.
As for Armor. I thnk that Angmarth and his freinds are the best example of what a Bel realm should be. They fight hard, fight fair and seem to always have good garb. WHat else is there. I've tried to run mine in many of the same ways for years. Natoinal events are rough. We fight the same way and follow the same rules in our park that are follwed at Chaos War. I have always felt that if I promote nationl events to the people in my group, it's my JOB to make sure they know what they are getting into.
I'd say my group would come in at a 8 or so on your scale.
FB

[Satanaka]

The biggest problem we have to overcome with each other in life- is Communication- if your married- you know what I mean.
I misunderstood what was ment- and it lead me to believe something far from what was being said. I know that if I can mis-read or understand- then there could be others. IF the intent was- as I had thought- would you also bring up the issue as wrong?

The internet is NOT the best way to talk- heck- even face to face people mis-understand each other. I think the internet increases the % chance of mis-reading and misunderstanding.

I am all for hard fighting/ Safe fighting and fun. We have been "changing" as far as getting better in our tactics and weapon design. I also agree that Beleagrth got the best fighters as well as some of the better attitudes. I don't want to see another split. I want to see us grow. I want it to be open for ALMOST all to play. I want to increase the garb- make it better.

I'd like to see a field of 1000 warriors... (all in good garb- fighting hard- taking hits) and at the end of the day- no injuries (or at least- just scrapes & bruises). I want to feel the hit- BUT not break my nose or knock a tooth out. I want to feel safe that my wife can fight and not worry about some bully-idiot- trying to hurt her due to his ego problems. I want to see deaths played to the point that people around you call "Hold" cause they think your hurt....

So- are we all trying to reach the same goal?

It's nice when people listen to reason. Thank you for being more open minded than I thought, Sir.
What my post about weapon checking meant was, if we don't like how they do it, let's get involved and change things. That's our responsbility as pat of this comunity. Of course we don't want to pass unsafe weapons. My wife fights, man. We to want change the process of inspection of stab tips at the events we go to to reflect the changes you guys have made over the last few years. We are behind the times out here and so are several other outying areas.
As for Armor. I thnk that Angmarth and his freinds are the best example of what a Bel realm should be. They fight hard, fight fair and seem to always have good garb. WHat else is there. I've tried to run mine in many of the same ways for years. Natoinal events are rough. We fight the same way and follow the same rules in our park that are follwed at Chaos War. I have always felt that if I promote nationl events to the people in my group, it's my JOB to make sure they know what they are getting into.
I'd say my group would come in at a 8 or so on your scale.
FB

[Loptr]

Satanaka,

Clearly there was miscommunication coupled with a bit of you/me/whomever dont want to seriously hear what is being said.
I respect your last several posts in this thread and want to thank you ability to reconsider the information. To echo Soo my Bel experience is limited to the west I guess we defaulted to assuming it was the same on the national level.

I feel we tried to express the rediculas nature of the construction that had to occur to build a pillow tip. But I guess it got lost in the translation.

Up the irons,

L

[Forkbeard]

Satanaka wrote:

I'd like to see a field of 1000 warriors... (all in good garb- fighting hard- taking hits) and at the end of the day- no injuries (or at least- just scrapes & bruises). I want to feel the hit- BUT not break my nose or knock a tooth out. I want to feel safe that my wife can fight and not worry about some bully-idiot- trying to hurt her due to his ego problems. I want to see deaths played to the point that people around you call "Hold" cause they think your hurt....

Of course were working for the same goal. Why, as a bunch of long term, vetran fighters of Belegarth, wouldn't we be working for the same goal?
Can you at least see why we ALL got offended that you sugested that we wanted to sneak unsafe weapons onto to feild? I mean really, why the **** would we want to do that. The completely reasonable TRUTH of what we were discussng blew right by you and you jumped to the worst possible conclusion, that we are all a bunch of * who want to seize control of weapon check so we can bring unsafe wapons onto the feild to break your nose and hurt your wife while we throw racial slurs at everyone.
Hooray for comunication.
FB

[Satanaka]

HA! Yes- Communication is bad enough between people- face to face. The internet is ten times worse. I am very suprised that more issues don't happen due to this.
I have got to get out west to visit.

... that we are all a bunch of * who want to seize control of weapon check so we can bring unsafe wapons onto the feild to break your nose and hurt your wife while we throw racial slurs at everyone.
Hooray for comunication.
FB