Helmets, the invulnerable armor

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Helmets, the invulnerable armor

Postby Isk » Sun May 31, 2009 9:02 pm

I was going over armor rules again with my young realm and everyone wanted to understand why arrows and javies go straight through armor everywhere but the head. I could not supply a good reason as this seems really, um, stupid, to me as well.

Our armor rules work for me because they are simple and encourage an unarmored game, but I do not understand why this bizarre anomaly in the armor rules exists. If the answer is, "To prevent archers and javelins from being overpowered," then we should make it consistent for the rest of armor as well. Helmets that are inexplicably superior to all other body armor is really strange.

Is there a good reason for this that I am too short-sighted to understand?

I realize this was discussed partly in a recent thread, but I wanted to focus on it so I started a new one.
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Re: Helmets, the invulnerable armor

Postby Big King Jimmy » Sun May 31, 2009 9:34 pm

If that didn't exist, why would you wear a helmet? You can't get hit in the head, so it doesn't absorb a shot. And if missiles treated helms the same way as other armor, they wouldn't give an advantage at all.

We WANT people to wear helms, they make our game safer. As such, they need an advantage. Since melee and the head are like oil and water, they make your head immune to missiles.
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Re: Helmets, the invulnerable armor

Postby Isk » Sun May 31, 2009 9:57 pm

So the rule exists solely to encourage more helmets on the field, for safety? I hadn't considered safety as a primary reason to provide such an advantage, but I could present that one and defend it.

To clarify: In saying arrows and javelins should treat all armor the same, I recognize this would be pointless if arrows just went through armor as they do now. It would require an adjustment of the arrow & javelin rules to make them do a single point of damage, like a blue sword. That may be too unbalancing and overpower armor, but that was what I meant.
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Re: Helmets, the invulnerable armor

Postby Big King Jimmy » Sun May 31, 2009 10:00 pm

It's another change the further complicates the game. Rather than say "this works this way, except in this situation where it works different." It's easier to say "This works this way, except in this situation where it doesn't work at all."
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Re: Helmets, the invulnerable armor

Postby The Great Gigsby » Sun May 31, 2009 10:03 pm

Because helmets and armor look cool in general. The helmet is historically the most important and most prevalent piece of armor but without some sort of advantage, nobody would wear them. I don't mean to bash, but Amtgard doesn't have any rules outlined for helmets which frequently equals people running around in gorgeous suits of armor with no helmet. I think it's a stupid look personally.

I'm gonna start wearing one to events because I don't wanna take anymore red shots to the jaw.
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Re: Helmets, the invulnerable armor

Postby Isk » Sun May 31, 2009 10:28 pm

Big Jimmy wrote:It's another change the further complicates the game. Rather than say "this works this way, except in this situation where it works different." It's easier to say "This works this way, except in this situation where it doesn't work at all."

I'm not sure I understand this. If yellows and blues acted the same against armor that would seem less complicated than the current system where yellows act like reds against body armor and don't do any damage to helmets.
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Re: Helmets, the invulnerable armor

Postby Big King Jimmy » Sun May 31, 2009 10:39 pm

Giving arrows and javs the same ability as blues wouldn't make any sense. Blue damage is damage from a swung weapon. But, although Bel weapons are not made to represent their real life counterparts, an arrows and javalins and really all projectiles weapons do not swing, their pierce. And as such they do piercing damage. And as such they have the same power as a double green, except vs helmets.
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Re: Helmets, the invulnerable armor

Postby Isk » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:08 am

Big Jimmy wrote:Giving arrows and javs the same ability as blues wouldn't make any sense. Blue damage is damage from a swung weapon. But, although Bel weapons are not made to represent their real life counterparts, an arrows and javalins and really all projectiles weapons do not swing, their pierce. And as such they do piercing damage. And as such they have the same power as a double green, except vs helmets.

That is the reasoning behind the current rule, which is cohesive other than the helmets. The reasoning for helmets to be excluded is apparently so that there is a great incentive for people to wear them on the field and thus create a safer, better looking fighting field.

I would be interested in discussing making yellow weapons do a single point of damage to armor, similar to the way blue weapons are scored. Not because yellow weapons are melee weapons, but to make an overall more balanced situation, esp. regarding helmets.

I am not starting a discussion regarding realistic damage of real weapons to real armor. I am interested in discussing what effect people think this change would have on:

1) game balance (changing the effectiveness of yellow weapons and armor) and

2) promoting helmet use for safety reasons
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Re: Helmets, the invulnerable armor

Postby Big King Jimmy » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:32 am

It just wouldn't happen. It's way to big an undertaking to every make it through war council. Plus, we don't want to balance helmets, they are by their very nature meant to be overpowered.
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Re: Helmets, the invulnerable armor

Postby Derian » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:40 am

Jimjim and Giggs have it right. Without rules such as they are, there would be almost no one wearing a helmet. Helmets (generally) look **** sweet and make the game look better. A lot of them also protect glasses/noses/piercings/braces/whatever.

If arrows and javelins went through helmets, there would be absolutely no reason to wear one except to look cool, and trust me, no one (ok, almost no one) will sacrifice the ability to breathe clearly and the increased warmth for looking a bit cooler.
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Re: Helmets, the invulnerable armor

Postby Rasheab » Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:23 am

Plus it's easier to say "helmets protect against missile weapons (and damage)" than to say "everything that stabs does piercing damage... except these missile weapons, which do slashing damage."

Which one makes more sense to you?

Side note: you're really trying to toy with the whole balance of things. Arrows must go through armor, or people will block arrows with their armored limbs (dangerous). If javelins do less damage than arrows... why?

Additionally, when you're on the line, are you able to tell the difference (when wearing a helmet) between an accidental melee hit and a missile hit to your head? If helmets were no longer impervious (and only granted 1 extra hit like normal armor), you would have to keep track of that.
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Re: Helmets, the invulnerable armor

Postby Isk » Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:44 am

Big Jimmy wrote:It just wouldn't happen. It's way to big an undertaking to every make it through war council. Plus, we don't want to balance helmets, they are by their very nature meant to be overpowered.

After my last post I thought it over and decided exactly what Jimmy said above. It would be waaaay too much of a change to push through and it works the way it is so the whole discussion is pretty pointless. Thanks everybody for taking the time to give well thought out responses, I'll start encouraging my guys to wear helms and explain it from the safety perspective with the "and you'll look sweet" as the added bonus.
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Re: Helmets, the invulnerable armor

Postby Satanaka » Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:05 am

It's another change THAT further complicates the game?
We actually agree. :devil:

Sounds like my words for the last 2 years.




Big Jimmy wrote:It's another change the further complicates the game.
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