Encouraging Cross game participation...

[Lord Onyx]

I recently attended an event that was geared towards encouraging Bel/Dag and Amtgard fighters. I noticed with just a couple of simple changes Bel/Dag fighters can easily adapt to Amt ditching and the Amt fighters can also adapt to the Bel fighting. To that end I would like to have a discussion about possibly removing the weight restrictions on weapons under 36". This simple change would allow amtgard fighters to walk on to our field and immediately feel at home and just add to the attendance of our events. I remember the arguments pro and con back when this rule was added but I cannot recall anyone considering the effect on attracting other foam fighters to our events and growing this sport. So what do you think?

[Angmarth]

I disagree. If we remove the weight restriction, we might as well remove the sufficient force rule as well. At LoW, I did not have a chance to participate in much on field fighting. However I did get to play in a "Bear Pit" that lasted a good 45 minutes. There were all varieties of Amt/Bel/Dag players involved and this is what I found. If I had held to my normal hit calibration, I would have been "that guy" who didn't take 90 percent of the shots thrown by the lighter swords. Rather than be "that guy", I turned my calibration down to almost nothing. I don't want to play that kind of game on a regular basis. It is the reason we went to weight limits to begin with. I have the same problem with Bel fighters that weight the entire 12oz in the pommel. The weapon simply does not strike with enough force. I did not have time to discuss any of this with Brennon at the time, but I was under the impression that there was to be some sort of scale to measure force. Please don't take this the wrong way, I THOROUGHLY enjoyed the cross-game experience I had with the Bear-Pit and I hope I get to stay longer at the next event.

[Derian]

I approve.

There's literally no difference in perceived speed from a properly balanced 36" weapon at 12 oz. and a properly balanced 36" weapon at 8 oz. Light hits are still light hits - if someone wants to use a lighter weapon, they're accepting the ramifications of that.

To touch on Angmarth's point - I don't recall issues with sufficient force before the weight minimums. Why would they show up now?

[Soo Ma Tai]

I have to agree with Angmarth, I would hate to see pixie stix on our fields. IMO weapon's that are too light cause a safety issue because they have to be swung so hard to get a good hit, you end up swinging out of control.

[Lord Onyx]

Well I enjoy a solid shot as much as any stick jock, but after sparring A LOT this weekend especially under the lights I found that it was possible to get solid shot from their 6 oz bats but to strike with enough force it came at the cost of some finesse.

I think that the weight requirement just takes away and does not add. I have always felt rules should add more than they take and most rules add one of 3 things safety, playability or "realism" (in quotes because this is a fantasy game lol...) . The increase in weight or minimum weight requirement seems to only remove those that wish to use those weapons but does not add any more safety or playability...

I would guess some would argue it adds realism but I would state the obvious that 12 oz is not the true weight of a 36" steel weapon. I also understand that hits from these bats are light, but I think that would be the concern of those swinging it and not those that did not feel the hit.

I know that if I feel someone cannot feel the hit I will turn up the heat or grab a weapon that I feel they can "calibrate" to feel. Again I feel this would be something that shows we want to be inclusive and combine the resources and people from foam fighting as a whole and that we are looking to put the sport ahead of what we might prefer personally.

IMHO

[Angmarth]

In my opinion, the simple rules of 12oz/24oz is a compromise. We don't require balance points, simply that you use something other than air. The weight minimum is a slippery slope that should NEVER be repealed. If it were removed, then we would slide back to people using ultra light 4-6oz swords that can NEVER deliver sufficient force. (Sufficient force defined as I understand it to be.) This is something that changes the very fabric of how we play. I am not for less physicality.

[Satanaka]

Not harping on ya Mike- "Never" seems like the wrong word to use.

In my opinion, the simple rules of 12oz/24oz is a compromise. We don't require balance points, simply that you use something other than air. The weight minimum is a slippery slope that should NEVER be repealed. If it were removed, then we would slide back to people using ultra light 4-6oz swords that can NEVER deliver sufficient force. (Sufficient force defined as I understand it to be.) This is something that changes the very fabric of how we play. I am not for less physicality.

[Sir Anastasia]

I remember before weight mins were established:

Lighter weapons enable you to take "uncommon" shots that would be painful or damaging to your wrist with a heavier weapon. I think these shots can completely remove realism (which unless we allow magic here, still matters somewhat for our game). Lighter weapons cannot parry as well as their heavier counterparts, and discourage blocking in the game. Lighter weapons make this much more of a speed game and a little less like "real" swordfighting. Heavier weapons cannot move as fast as the light weapons. I still fight with people who use the LARP swords and I hate that everything just becomes a tappy speed game. Their weapon mechanics no longer bear any semblance to realism. They are basically using a rapier light weapon for slashing. It becomes a ridiculous game. I almost quit Bel before the weight mins because fighting didn't look anything like fighting anymore. Keep the mins: swing and parry like it's a sword, not a feather stick.

-AoC

[Physic]

Weapons have nothing to do with why people dont cross game.

[Thomas MacFinn]

Having come from the SCA, I found the Belegarth weight minimums exceptionally light. I've gotten used to it, but I would have no problems with the weight minimums increasing.

[Sorcia]

Weapons have nothing to do with why people dont cross game.

QFT

[Sir Anastasia]

The only barrier to crossgaming that I have found is the "fluff" level. Either we are too fluffy or not fluffy enough.

[The Lost Celt]

Way I figure if we allow ultralight weapons for cross game sports we'll potentially have a bunch of amtgardians grouching about and wondering why we aren't taking their hits.

That and depending on the group we may be more likely to break their weapons.

I'm not worried about our sport, honestly it seems we're somewhere in the middle... but our impression to others is important to me, I'd much rather loan them my weapons and let them try things out, even if it's single blue one on one, just to get a feel of things.

It's a nice sentiment, but I'm somewhat concerned it can potentially cause more harm than good.

[Slagar]

I think all the bases have been covered pretty well on this one, but I'd just like to step in and call * on the idea that it'd be completely OK to just not take any hit that wasn't good enough from lighter weapons. We all know that's not what'd happen.

If I walk up to a guy with a pixie stick and he throws ten shots and hits me with all of 'em clean, but they're all waaaay too light for our current standards, and I club him and walk away, I look like a colossal cheater and that's what I'd get called. 4oz swords could hit me clean all day long, and it'd probably be a while before any one shot hit hard enough, but there's no way in hell my opponent is gonna think I'm playing fair if I just call light while he butters me with that stupid thing.

The Amt guys at LoW switched up to heavier gear for our event, most of 'em. One guy who I chatted with a lot was swinging an 8oz sword, and he could swing it hard enough for my taste, no problem. He admitted though, that he switched up from a good deal lighter weapon specifically because he saw this coming. If their elites show that much foresight, I think we probably ought to as well.

[Arrakis]

a) Physic is dead right.

b) We really shouldn't let unmodified 5 oz amtbats on the field. They do NOT hit hard enough to deliver a good hit until you're just CRANKING them at people, and then they hit hard enough to fail the hit test. I fought with a bunch of totally awesome Amtgard fighters last weekend and I took about 90% shots that I would not have taken on a Bel or Dag field. The pimpin'-est of them told me to go ahead and call light on their shots if I felt they were insufficient, and that was really cool, but, for the most part, the swords they were using, combined with the style in which they are accustomed to swinging them, hindered their ability to blast me properly.

I did get to use one of the 12.1 oz Warlord Sports sticks, though; it was pretty ****' awesome and I definitely smashed some people with it.



Anyway, what we CAN do to encourage cross-gaming:

1) Go visit their game! Whatever game it is, you won't get crossing from them into you if you aren't willing to go try their game.

2) Always have loaner gear and always be willing to pass a (safe) piece of non-standard/technically illegal gear for a cross-gamer at their first couple of cross-practices (i.e., I got to ditch with my minimum-Bel-legal-pommel swords because, as I was told, "**** it, it's just ditching."

3) Don't act high and mighty! Bel isn't "better" than Amtgard; Amtgard isn't "better" than Dagorhir; SCA isn't "better" than EMP. Whatever. You're all dorks, you all swing stick; respect one another's sports even if you think yours is the best.

4) Go with the flow. If you're at another game's event, relax, take it easy, spar everyone, and generally try to absorb the culture. There are a lot bigger differences between Bel and Dag and Amt than you can see in the rules sets.

5) Communicate. If I was an Amt player and walked onto a Bel field and someone said, "Yeah, you gotta hit pretty hard, here, we don't just take touches", I might be a little baffled when half the people on the field take my snap shots and then look at me funny and the other half ignore everything I throw at them. SHOW them what a good strike feels like, help them understand what the average person will take vs. what they won't, explain all the shield contact rules. It's good for ya.

[Lord Onyx]

Well this was meant to inspire a discussion and it certainly has. I am always surprised how certain people just become vitriolic over certain issues. I know I have my soft spots, but in my old age I guess I have become less harsh in defending my stances in lieu of the standard your a dumb * lines that seem common around here lately.. lol

For the record I completely agree with the other things Arrakis listed and try to practice them regularly. Also I prefer the weight at 12oz because at my size a couple of ounces up or down has never really effected me, but hey its about what best for the sport of foam fighting right?

Thanks for the comments see ya at EQ!

[Soo Ma Tai]

Another reason weight mins were added was because of the ultra light fishing pole flails that became popular for a while. By setting a limit to the length of the weapons and adding weight limits those sooper cheesy things were gotten rid of. I would hate to see a return of those types of weapons.

[Sir Anastasia]

Another reason weight mins were added was because of the ultra light fishing pole flails that became popular for a while. By setting a limit to the length of the weapons and adding weight limits those sooper cheesy things were gotten rid of. I would hate to see a return of those types of weapons.

Diddo.

[Slagar]

Lots of really good advice

I realize on reflection my post is harsher than I meant it to be. Not trying to jump down anyone's throat, it's just a bit of a pet peeve of mine.

Overall, I would absolutely love to encourage cross-gaming as much as possible. It's not that LoW changed my mind or anything, I've always liked the idea, but getting to actually meet and fight with those guys really just highlighted how awesome it would be to do stuff like that. Seeing is believing, you know? If you haven't fought some Amt badasses, do so. It's wild.

Onyx has the right idea, imo, I just think that there are a few snags with that way of going about it.

[Sorcia]

I am not a naysayer. I just don't believe this course of action will have the desired effect.

It would however put an end to the process that many people go through to make weapons pass weight.

Step 1. Make weapon.
Step 2. Weigh weapon.
Step 3. Cry at the 1.5 ounce weight deficit of your perfect sword.
Step 4. Add small bits of crap from around the house to the scale until it almost passes.
Step 5. Attach junk to handle with minimal tape.
Step 6. Weigh weapon.
Step 7. Wonder how the hell weapon is now 1 ounce over.
Step 8. Cry again.
Step 9. Apply eyeliner.
Step 10 Cut yourself.

Disclaimer: The above is a satirical view of the * I have witnessed many times. I don't condone cutting your self. Unless you have followed the precise method of emo weapon building which states that you cry AFTER applying eyeliner so your tears are black and show up better in your journal.

[Loptr]

Onyx- I think it is commendable that you are looking at this with an eye of growing participation. More peeps to hit is a plus in any group.
I am an Amt crossover and went through a myriad of “respect” issues. Having your own weapons and being comfortable with them is preferable to borrowing a weapon. But if you have a group with loaners available I think that ought to cut down on lack of crossover accommodation. The average crossover shouldn’t get their panties in too big of a twist.
Side note: Night ditching is easily my fav thing about Amt events.

Physic- Please expand on your statement “Weapons have nothing to do with why people dont cross game.” I have a couple ideas but am curious to hear yours.

Arrakis- I totally agree with * near everything you posted.

These arguments for realism based on weapons having a minimum weight has one flawed argument IMHO. If we are gonna argue for a “realistic/minimum” weight, why does this not apply to shields? All of these historically inaccurate barn door punch shields (my punch teardrop certainly can fit this criteria) are a joke and make the minimum weight on a sword more of a straw man argument. I want my realism but only where it is convenient?

Overall I really enjoy aspects of both Amt and Bel and there are aspects of both I’d enjoy and have to do away with. I cope with what I don’t like and focus on the things I really enjoy. Using different weighted weapons (6-10 ox vs 12-16oz) does take a little bit of recalibrate to get my shots landing correctly.

Loptr

[Angmarth]

In Arnor, we do apply a shield weight house rule. Heavy "cored" shields get 2 red hits and lighter "un-cored" shields get 1 red hit. I would love for this to be the national standard, but would need more vocal support for it before I brought it to the table for discussion.

[Lord Onyx]

Whats considered Heavy core? Wood??

[Sorcia]

Not if you use 5-ply birch Tec-ply wood. It is wood but weighs almost nothing compared to standard plywood.

[Angmarth]

For simplicities sake we allow tech-ply to count as cored for purposes of the 2 hit rule. Ironicly this doesn't effect more than 1 or 2 people, as all of the rest of the shields are made with .5" plywood backers. We have had several people modify their punch shields to include a wood backer, in order to gain the 2 hit advantage.

[Lord Onyx]

this would be an interesting rule but you know I would love to see things made more simple not varying. Here's one how about we start counting stabs the same as strikes verses armor? Hence a hit is a hit stab or slash. Since we eliminated the different types and hits allowed various armor why not simplify it once more and make stabbing a more effective fighting style?

[Brennon EH]

I think simplicity of rules, no matter what those rules are, is the best thing you can do to encourage cross-gaming.

The weight requirements on weapons, regardless of what you may think about them from a mechanical standpoint, are very cut-and-dry. 341g is 341g is 341g. If I weigh it in Texas it is the same as if I weigh it in Illinois. You can read that rule, make something that meets the standards, and then move along.

The issues that come up are rules that do one of the following:
1. Require an experienced person to adjudicate
2. Are not discernible in the normal course of combat
3. Require significant amounts of cogitation to determine how the rule applies in combat

The weight rule, while not normally discernible in the normal course of combat, operates off the assumption that any weapon on the field has been objectively checked in a factual way, and thus it isn't an issue.

The rule about different 'wound types' from piercing and slashing, on the other hand, is definitely confusing and cannot be easily determined in the normal course of combat. It can be determined by communication with your opponent, but this slows things down and (in some way) detracts from play.

The rule about what constitutes a safe stabbing tip is also confusing. You see in Bel itself a discussion between East and West about what constitutes 'safe'; Arnor believes that your normal slash padding is sufficient, while groups in California may believe that you need two inches of marine foam in order to be stab legal. It requires an 'experienced adjudicator', which means that new and isolated groups will develop different standards of measure and expectations. 'Sufficient force', while laudable and important, can also vary greatly based on isolation vs having an 'experienced adjudicator'.

Any of the rules that might confuse a new or isolated player will likely, to some degree, also hinder cross-gaming. It isn't insurmountable (as we have recently seen), but it is something to think about.

The best way forward for encouraging cross-gaming is to normalize the mechanics of combat to form a stable base for interaction between the games. We can standardize and harmonize things like padding requirements, hit locations, shot timing, damage, weapon definitions, etc.

We can also work on making clearer and more objective some things that are not the same between the systems. 'Sufficient force', for instance, might be better described so that a visitor has an expectation of what is needed to score a valid hit before they visit a field. Something along the lines of "shots must be percussive, stop on, or rebound from their target in order to be considered sufficient" would be a good first step in having an explanation that isolated people and cross-gamers can understand.

I'm very much interested in working towards something that promotes and eases cross-gaming. It wouldn't take a lot to get us there, and I think the returns are worth the investments.

[bo1]

good stuff to read.

thanks for those that took time to make intelegent coments. i am too dumb to make intelegent comments, i will just continue reading.

oh and cross gaming rocks. great way to experience all combat types.

[Forkbeard]

I like the way this conversation rolled around.
Here's my 2 bits.
As for the time in Bel before the weight minimums; I remember clearly that we did have MANY problems with ultra light weapons not delivering hits hard enough to felt. This is what cuased the conversations that led to that monumental rule change. It was a very serious problem for many of us who prefer hard hitting combat. It was also a problem for people who enjoy the wearing of armor. It's not that heavier weapons are more "realistic" It's that the hit harder more often thus clearifying the results for combat.
I totaly agree with Physic. The reason people don't cross game is certainly nothing to do with weapons. It's all about the fact that people are elitist snobs everywhere. We ll feel we are doing everything in the best way that it can be done. Very few of us(we all know who we are) make the effort to actually go and ee what other people are doing. I am very glad that so many people are starting to get out more and meet the cool people from these other games. I am always glad that I made the effort to meet the mtgard people. Loptr has been a great freind and comrad in arms for several years now. I'm sure we wouldn't have met(even though we live very near each other) if not for a mutual need to kick strangers asses.
All in all, I think we shouldn't change anything. We need to keep our identity as a game just as Amtgard and every other game does. We don't need to Homogonize to cross game. So what if you need to make a set of weapons to fight in Amtgard on Wednesdays and a dfferent set for Bel on Thurdays. You'll ALWAYS need different gear for SCA, but if you want to do that type of fighting, you get it, you don't ask them to change for you.
FB.

[bo1]

that is a great point, you dont show up in hockey gear and ask to play baseball, nor do you use a bat to play lacross. each sport uses its own equipment, why should we all have to use a hydrid bat-lacross stick-hockey stick to play any one sport when some have no intention to play the other 2.

but cross gaming rocks. as far as i can tell, i can use my bel gear in amt and be effective, the best 5 they had at L.O.W would hit me no matter what i was using.

also as a side note, i did notice that when peter the quick used those really light bats, he hit like a little girl, capared to his normal hits. the weapons do make a great deal of difference, especially in armor. you never feel a slap in armor, only the push of the weapon, which weight is required for.

also it is really hard to mimic some of the more complex shots that the elite fighters use in amtgaurd with our basic equipment( 32" total length, bladed sword at 13oz. )

but that said, if i got used to the speed they are at then i would probibly be able to keep up and eventually do better than i did.