Allowing or Disallowing Titanium

[Kage]

As brought up in the Rules Question forums; What are the problems with Titanium, What are the pros to Titanium, and should we or should we not allow it.

As far as I'm concerned Titanium (Ti) meets all of the main components of our style of game play. It can be made safe. It has a realistic weight and color. And it is just as playable as any other steel alloy we have; given that Ti is and element in and of its self.

Thoughts?

[Peregrine]

I see no problem with it.

[varadin]

I see it opening the flood gates. You allow something like titanium and you have people saying that its not period so that we should allow things like aluminum, or plastic armor. You have to draw the line somewhere and right now it being at period metals is a rather clear line. Sure people will argue for cloth armor, bone and wood since they allow for more characterization but their are rather easily seen safety/playability issues on them.

[Derian]

I don't see a problem with it. As to the slippery slope fallacy - just because we allow titanium, which is similarly encumbering to steel and modern derivatives thereof, doesn't mean that aluminum and plastic armor is suddenly going to be allowed. No one wants to see armor rules trivialized.

[Angmarth]

I agree with Derian on this. Titanium, as long as it is similar in its properties to steel, should be okay for armor.

[Freyson]

How would one go about telling the difference between Titanium and some other non-period metal such as aluminum? With steel it is pretty easy with a magnet. With other currently allowed metals it is also pretty easy with just simple eye and weight comparison. But titanium and aluminum are pretty close in look (especially when treated or colored), weight, strength, etc.. Is there any easy way to test for titanium without letting other metals slip though check?

[Derian]

The magnet point is a good argument, however (pure) titanium is actually about twice as dense as (pure) aluminum, so the weight should be noticeable.

[Angmarth]

We allow other non-magnetic metals such as bronze and copper, so I don't see the arguement there. I contend that as long as the density of the material is comparable to that of steel, copper, bronze, etc. then it would be fine. The only reason aluminum isn't allowed, I believe, is that it isn't encumbering at all. This was the same logic that determined the azon cheese-mail would not be allowed, even tho it IS made from an already accepted metal (stainless steel).

[Arrakis]

There are stainless steel alloys that are not ferromagnetic. As it is, we have to trust in our designated armor checkers' ability to distinguish by sight and feel between aluminum; nickle; titanium; mild, spring, stainless, galvy, etc. steels; copper; bronze; brass; iron; etc. It's not hard once you get the hang of it. Go audit a materials science class or spend some time in a metal shop.

[Oisin]

Most Belegarth weapons and armour checkers are NOT qualified to properly check metal armour. They don't know what they're looking at, they don't know what they're looking for, they don't know what's safe, they don't know what's not safe. For the simple reason 99% of them have absolutely no experience with anything other than butted maille and maybe a few fragments of mass-prod plate spaulders or such, and probably never well.

Oh, and titanium isn't at all that close in weight to steel. The OP must be misinformed. In fact, titanium is only a bit more than half as dense as steel, and is closer to the density of aluminum than it is to the density of iron.

Also contrary to the OP's original statements, there is, in my opinion, nothing in the armour rules that is less historically accurate than titanium. I mean, sure, stainless steel and galvanization are modern processes as well . . . but at least they're based on a material that was widely used then. Although, unlike the craptastic leather armour people use in Belegarth, titanium would at least actually do **** to stop a blow.

That being said, after doing the math, sheet titanium with the same thickness as 20 gauge mild steel does weigh about thirteen and a half ounces per square foot compared to 12 oz per square foot for 12 oz leather (and really the minimum weight of uber-cheese ninja brigs and the like is even lower). For reference, 20 gauge sheet steel weighs 24 oz per square foot.

So, take that for what you will.

[Kage]

I don't see why you are calling the OP of the rules question a liar. His math is pretty much correct. He was off on the 18g suit he has. True he should have had a number closer to 1. not 1.2. Steel is 1.4 something or other pounds per square foot at 20g. Titanium is .85 roughly at 20g. But comparing weight in reality is much like comparing Iron to Lead. Lead weighs a significant amount more but is very soft. Comparing strength would be a better option. Steel and Titanium are almost identical in strength. Steel is stiffer, but Titanium is lighter.

[Oisin]

Just so we can get all of the numbers on the table:

20 gauge mild sheet steel is 0.9119 mm thick.

18 gauge mild sheet steel is 1.2141 mm thick.

There are 30.48 centimeters in a foot, or 929.0304 square centimeters in a square foot.

This means that the volume of a square foot of 20 gauge steel is 84.71828 cm3, while the volume of a square foot of 18 gauge steel is 112.7935 cm3.

The density of iron (and, therefore, very nearly the density of steel) is 7.874 g/cm3.

The density of titanium is 4.506 g/cm3.

So, a square foot of 20 gauge sheet steel weighs 23.53 ounces, and a square foot of 18 gauge sheet steel weighs 31.32 ounces. Either galvanized or stainless sheet will be slightly thicker. Sheet stainless works out so that it weighs exactly 24 and 32 oz respectively per thickness, which is the ideal weight for steel (ie, the gauges are supposed to be calibrated so that 18 gauge does weigh 2 lbs per square foot exactly). Mild steel could be slightly denser than iron so that those thicknesses work out to the ideal, but it's close enough for government work.

A square foot of sheet titanium of the same thickness (I'm here going to assume that the thickness requirements for all metals are the same, and not calculated differently based on the fact that gauge measurements vary with the density of the metal) as 20 gauge sheet steel weighs 13.942 oz, and a square foot of sheet titanium with the same thickness as 18 gauge sheet steel weighs 17.927 ounces.

[Angmarth]

Assuming Oisin's math is correct (I have no reason to doubt it) I would be against allowing titanium. Sorry folks, IMHO it just isn't heavy enough.

[Kage]

I guess I don't see what weight has to do with anything. Is that what we are using to consider armor encumbering?

[Angmarth]

In my opinion, yes. We disallowed the azon cheese mail strictly on weight alone.

[Oisin]

I guess I don't see what weight has to do with anything. Is that what we are using to consider armor encumbering?

That's what encumbrance is, because well made armour of any sort will not effect your range of motion.

[Kage]

Azon mail was killed by a gauge change if I remember right. Maybe weight limits should be added instead.

[Big King Jimmy]

Weight mins wouldn't do what you think they'd do. You can't say "metal armor should weight at least X amount." Because your bracer will weigh less than my bracer will weigh less than your chest piece will weigh less than my chest piece.

[Kage]

Essentially my argument was that any amount of weight will be encumbering to some degree. Some more than others. It just didn't come out that way.

[Soo Ma Tai]

Though Ti weighs only a bit over half of the weight of steel, it is still heavier than leather. Because armor only gives one extra hit, no matter if it's leather, chain, or plate. I would be in favor of allowing Ti made armor, only because it is at least as ecumbering as leather, and gives the exact same advantage in the game.

[Forkbeard]

I say no.
Weighing in as a pro iron monger again:
Oisin is totaly right. Ti weigh half what steel does. It's also hard to work with and expensive.
Why would you want this?
Because it's lighter. You're a douche.
No way, Jose.
FB

[Angmarth]

If I had my way, all body armor would be required to be metal. Since that isn't going to happen, the best I can do is attempt to keep further slippage down the slope. So no to Titanium.

[calebmonkey]

Well I don't see the point of Ti armor,if you want light armor make the cloth/leather brigadine that's so popular these days,if you want plate get plate
if you wanna say "my armor cost me $1,800 dollars in materials" have your steel plate trimmed and etched in gold

[Arrakis]

Well I don't see the point of Ti armor,if you want light armor make the cloth/leather brigadine that's so popular these days,if you want plate get plate
if you wanna say "my armor cost me $1,800 dollars in materials" have your steel plate trimmed and etched in gold

Chavez, I think the point in this case was a guy already having some badass Ti lamellar from his SCA days and wanting to cross-game in it. I don't see why we need a rules change though; if the Head Armor Checker at an event wants to pass it because it seems armor-y enough to them, that's fine; they're within their rights as Head Checker to do that. That avoids opening up any worm-cans of new materials and crap.

[Kage]

I would rather see someone in light Ti armor that looks awesome, then in some pocket brig. Also from personal experience SCA goers seem to be more uptight about historical accuracy then we are. If it was good there, then really whats our issue with it other than its light.

[Soo Ma Tai]

Armor is the one thing SCA is not very period about. I mean they allow plastic armor. SCA is a bad comparison.

[Kage]

Maybe sport wide. Locally for me however they are kind of picky considering there is a bad * armor smith in the same town.

[Arrakis]

Maybe sport wide. Locally for me however they are kind of picky considering there is a bad * armor smith in the same town.

And that's cool for your locals and all, but a very large proportion of the "armor" worn in the SCA is made out of old carpet, plastic buckets and barrels, hockey pads, lacrosse gear, and aluminum. Cut the "If it's good enough for the SCA, it should be good enough for us" ****.

Though I will say, my plastic Coat of Plates is lookin' way sicker than a lot of leather I see on the field...

[Kage]

I have never been to a large SCA event so I don't see much of the crap armor they have. I've only played around locally, and most have really nice armor, which by my fault I thought was the standard. So my bad; poor argument on my part.