Full Metal Helm

[Physic]

Can anyone come up with an instance where a full metal face helm is more dangerous then metal helm without the face or even a lacrosse helm. I would love to wear a full helm due to the fact that 90% of my injuries are to my face. This is a silly ancient rule. Think of the awesome helms we could see on the field if we change this.

[Satanaka]

I was actuall told many, many years back was that a solid piece helm was not allowed due to the fact that if there was a head injury and swelling- then it would be harder to get the helm off.

I thought that a bit odd.

I'd hate to think that it was to discorage SCA people from walking out on the field- but I have seen weirder things.

[Soo Ma Tai]

When I first started in Dur-D, the SCA reason is exactly what I was told. Dag still has a no non-period grill rule, which precludes, in particular, 95% of all SCA helms.

[Satanaka]

non-period? What period was Tolkien?

or non-period as in aluminum?

When I first started in Dur-D, the SCA reason is exactly what I was told. Dag still has a no non-period grill rule, which precludes, in particular, 95% of all SCA helms.

[Spike]

I think he meant those plastic football looking grills like you always see in SCA pics.

We allow full metal everything else, so why not the helmets?

Also, if someone is stupid enough to manage a head injury while wearing a full steel helmet, they deserve to be stuck in that soup can.

[Kyrian]

Also, if someone is stupid enough to manage a head injury while wearing a full steel helmet, they deserve to be stuck in that soup can.

I've always heard it as being the other way around: How much injury could one inflict while wearing a full steel helmet on those not wearing helmets?

[Satanaka]

Sounds much more reasonable.
But Helmets are allowed- what is the difference between the one piece ones and a three piece helmet?

Again- Hey- Older than me people- why is this so??????

Also, if someone is stupid enough to manage a head injury while wearing a full steel helmet, they deserve to be stuck in that soup can.

I've always heard it as being the other way around: How much injury could one inflict while wearing a full steel helmet on those not wearing helmets?

[Soo Ma Tai]

Non-period as in a grill face, as opposed to a solid faceplate or no face cover at all. I understand what you are saying, Tolkien and all that for sure. I was just quoting from the Dag rules. They (dag) allow solid full metal helms, just not ones with SCA style grillwork. We (bel) don't allow solid full metal helms but make no distinction about grillwork.

[Angmarth]

Arnor would vote yes on full metal helms, as we allow them locally as it is.

[Spike]

I've always heard it as being the other way around: How much injury could one inflict while wearing a full steel helmet on those not wearing helmets?

I was only counterpointing the example Satanaka gave. I agree that someone can do more damage to another combatant with their helm.

How much injury could one inflict while wearing a full steel helmet on those not wearing helmets?

I'd wager it couldn't be more dangerous than any other plate armored area which our rules currently allow for.

[Derian]

I'd be in favor of allowing full metal helms, though I do like Dagorhir's restriction on bar grills. They're a necessity for safety in the SCA, but are lame and tacky. The issue is going to be how do we prevent the ones that are purely a safety thing while allowing some that might be period or aren't just tacky pieces of ****.

For instance:

Good:



Bad:

[Soo Ma Tai]

I think, like many other things, it would at the descretion of the armor checkers. Personally the first one, though it may have an extra brace there, is pretty much "period". Though I would question the finger catching ability of the eye area. With out the helm in hand it's very difficult to tell. The second example is fail for two reasons. One the crappy grill, two finger catching which again, I would have to see the actual helm to make a determination about the grill being a hazard.

Stygia woudl be in favor of allowing metal helms, as long as we had the grill clause in there.

[Sorcia]

As I heard it, back in the day, it was a cutting issue. The edges were going to easily cut people.

Seems like there is no real reason just a bunch of differing opinions.

Meh. I don't mind them.

[Rasheab]

1. Armored folks can't initiate grapple. They can still shield bash. What are the odds of someone in a full metal helm shield bashing an opponent, tripping, and accidently headbutting their opponent (and possibly knocking their opponents teeth out)?

Incidently, I was always told that full metal helms, elbows, and knees were disallowed because those are the areas that will do you in if a charging opponent trips and lands on you.

2. Would SCA style bar grills be allowed as safety equipment, but not allowed to count as armor? (So arrows and javs to the face area would still kill.)

3. Would kendo helmets (provided they were made of appropriate material to count as armor) be included in the SCA bar grill limitation, and stay banned?

[Spike]

1. Armored folks can't initiate grapple. They can still shield bash. What are the odds of someone in a full metal helm shield bashing an opponent, tripping, and accidently headbutting their opponent (and possibly knocking their opponents teeth out)?

Incidently, I was always told that full metal helms, elbows, and knees were disallowed because those are the areas that will do you in if a charging opponent trips and lands on you.

To be clear, metal is not disallowed in helmets. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the full metal helmets we are talking about protect the cranium, face, and neck. The most likely spot to come into contact with an opponent in your scenario would be the forehead to cranium area, which we already allow to have metal construction.

[Rasheab]

(To also clarify, I've never heard a good explanation of what is "to much metal" under the current rules. So if you're correct Spike, that would resolve/negate that potential objection.)

[Kage]

I wouldn't mind seeing full metal helms on the field, but I agree the full set of bars look ridiculous. I would be in favor of something that allows full metal helms but discourages large amounts of bars. Something similar to the Dag rule would suffice for me.

[Physic]

Derian, I would still rather see the Bad helm over a Lacrosse helm any day. The bad helm is probably cheaper as well.

[Derian]

I agree.

[The Great Gigsby]

Even if we were to allow SCA style bar grills, I don't think we'd see a sudden surge of people wearing them. They're still pretty heavy, encumbering, and limit your vision. If somebody wants to min/max, they'll use leather anyway. It's not like helmets imbalance the game.

All the current rule does is limit who can play with the equipment they should by all means be able to use. Same with the restriction on knee and elbow cops.

[Satanaka]

As I am reading this thread- and even looking at the pics- and remembering the helms I have seen- like Kegg's helm- I don't see why we would NOT allow them.

I am not a big fan of rushing into adding rules or changing things without good reason- and I can't think off a good reason NOT to allow them.

Anyone have a good reason?

[Oisin]

Kendo helms, and similarly fencing masks, would fail under a "no non-period grills" rule as well.

As, in my opinion, they should.

The only major issue I can see is when people start bringing SCA helmets, even good ones like, say, a nice bascinet with a klappvisor, those things are heavy. Very heavy.

The majority of injuries I've seen in boffer fighting are injuries caused by gravity and collision, and wearing around a 12 gauge bascinet is adding a lot of mass to your head that could quite easily gravitate down onto someone else's head when, say, you get shield bashed and trip and fall backwards. Or, even if it doesn't connect with someone else, if you fall over something (which I see all the time in Belegarth and next to never in the SCA) and it stops your body but not your head, that's a lot of weight to jerk your neck around.

It's worth pointing out that while they allow full metal helms with period-ish visors, Dagorhir does not allow helmets made from metal thicker than 16 gauge.

For reference, my Belegarth and Dagorhir legal 16 gauge plate steel helmet, which is probably about the very edge of what's legal in Bel under the full metal helmet rule, weighs about 3 lbs. My fully enclosed SCA helmet weighs probably almost triple that, and it's only 14 gauge and has a slat back to save some weight.

I can get exact weighs later.

[Spyn]

I see no problem with metal helms , knees or elbows as long as the penny round rule applies. I have been injured far more often by metal hands (gauntlets) than full body armor ever hurt me. The obvious rules still apply.
Don't be stupid and its way better looking than lacrosse or any other non period helm.


Spyn

[Loptr]

Don't be stupid and its way better looking than lacrosse or any other non period helm.


Spyn

Justicar!

[Kage]

Did this ever come to a consensus? It looks like it might have to me. Just clarifying because I had a couple people interested from my area in whether or not we were going to discuss this any further or perhaps do a rule change.

[Mekoot Rowan]

Having gone through the thread it doesn't seem like most people are really against having full metal helms. Anyone who is just seems to want to avoid the SCA grill.

The most negative point is Oison's and should be duly considered, but it may be that this could pass WC voting with the right wording and consideration.

[Kage]

At least it will be encumbering weight wise, which no offense seems to be what everyone looks for armor to be. So why would it matter that your helm weighs 3 lb when ,if you have plate, your armor weighs 40-60 lb. The risk of falling or being fallen on in both situations is pretty much the same in my opinion.

I agree it probably could pass WC if properly done.

[Oisin]

Substantive rules changes don't pass War Council. Go to the forum and count, since 2005, how many rules changes have passed out of a rulebook that is clearly in need of some major revision.

Actually passing something like that is a pipe dream.

[Derian]

Allowing full metal helms is hardly substantive.

Weight minimums, changing reds to require 48" overall instead of 36" for non swords, limiting flails to 40" are just a few changes i can think of off the top of my head. Sure, some may have been before 2005, but the BoW has only been around since 2001/2002.

[Physic]

I think the real question is whether they would prevent more injuries than they would cause.

[Kage]

I would bet that we would see fewer injuries to the head and face with full metal helms being allowed vs the way it is now. Whether or not people want to wear them is another story.

Looking at the rules I think we could omit 3.8, 3.8.1, and 3.8.2; and add a new rule limiting SCAdian grilling under the metal armor 3.6. Yes I know 3.8.1 is the cops rule but I don't see a need for it with full rigid helms being allowed.

For those who like visuals:

3.6. Metal Armor

3.6.1. Metal Armor must be made from period metals and alloys such as iron, bronze, brass, or copper. Modern steel alloys are also allowed.
3.6.2. Metal Armor must conform to both of the following:

3.6.2.1. Must not be easily deformable by hand or by weapon strikes.
3.6.2.2. Using a material with a thickness of at least 20 gauge.

3.6.3. Rigid Metal must conform to the Penny Round standard.

to something like this possibly

3.6. Metal Armor

3.6.1. Metal Armor must be made from period metals and alloys such as iron, bronze, brass, or copper. Modern steel alloys are also allowed.
3.6.2. Metal Armor must conform to both of the following:

3.6.2.1. Must not be easily deformable by hand or by weapon strikes.
3.6.2.2. Using a material with a thickness of at least 20 gauge.

3.6.3. Rigid Metal must conform to the Penny Round standard.
3.6.4. Metal helms may not have more than five (5) non period bars as grilling.

Omit/remove

3.8. Prohibited Armor:

3.8.1. Rigid Metal knee or elbow Armor (cops).
3.8.2. Rigid Metal full Helmet. Partial Rigid Metal Helmet as well as full Helmet made of any other Armor materials are allowed.

Thoughts? I post this because I feel that there is a fair to good amount of people so far that feel that full rigid metal helms should be ok and because I feel this could help with further discussion on the subject.

[Oisin]

Derian, as I'm sure you know, the major change in 2005 was that that was when online voting was adopted. Since then, the only rules changes that have occurred are minor fixes. You just listed off a number of important and major rules changes that were made since Belegarth was founded . . . but none of those were made after online voting was adopted. I think that it has served to stagnate the rules.

[Derian]

Online voting has always been around. 'Roundbouts 2005 it was made mandatory, as many realms were getting wholly **** in the process of having WC meetings at Armageddon only.

Also, people would either quit arguing or just give up on an issue during live meetings because they were sick of sitting there for the past 5 hours in the blistering heat and wanted to get drunk or do whatever it is realm leaders do in their offtime.

Weight minimums were done solely online and are arguably the largest change to happen to the Book of War.

At risk of derailing the thread even further, I'm sure people would be happy to abolish online voting if a system could be devised that doesn't a) exclude realms that are unable to visit a particular event yet still provides a large enough sample of realm sizes and b) doesn't take hours upon hours of event time. Online voting isn't perfect, but it's much better than the previous system.

[Sir Anastasia]

I think it will keep rules more consistent nation wide. Instead of not having your vote, (if you can't get to an event) everyone gets their words in. No realms are disenfranchised this way.

[Elebrim]

At risk of derailing the thread even further, I'm sure people would be happy to abolish online voting if a system could be devised that doesn't a) exclude realms that are unable to visit a particular event yet still provides a large enough sample of realm sizes and b) doesn't take hours upon hours of event time. Online voting isn't perfect, but it's much faster and more efficient than the previous system.

Speed and Efficiency is not always necessarily better. Just figured I'd throw that in there.

Maybe the issue isn't the medium, but the frequency. We do four quarterly votes now, whereas before it was a single annual vote. Changing the schedule could serve to encourage discussion outside the normal periods, and it would also weed out those ideas that don't gain traction simply through the topic dying off.

Another possible solution would be to hold full meetings at Armageddon and Chaos, with whatever realms possible sending representatives (kinda like the Executive Officers already do each year). The reps discuss any major issues or concerns, and publish the detailed minutes online. It fosters in-person discussions and makes sure that everyone's opinion is at least written down and included. The only flaw I see to this is the issue of the furthest extremes... Canada, The Southern USA, California, Puerto Rico, etc. Distance is naturally limiting to in-person participation.



Back on topic: I do not agree with the proposed removal of 3.8.1. Elbows and Knees are more likely to make contact with people than heads (read: shield bash gone wrong), and I strongly feel that this would increase injuries from unintentional knee/elbow contact.

Remember that just because full plate helms will be allowed, not everyone will be wearing full plate - or any armor at all. The same percentage of unarmored fighters will exist, and the field has to be just as safe for them as for the armored folk.

[Kage]

3.8. Prohibited Armor:

3.8.1. Rigid Metal knee or elbow Armor (cops).
3.8.2. Rigid Metal full Helmet. Partial Rigid Metal Helmet as well as full Helmet made of any other Armor materials are allowed.

To

3.8. Prohibited Armor:

3.8.1. Rigid Metal knee or elbow Armor (cops).
3.8.2. Metal Helms with more than five(5) non-period bars for grilling.

Could be a easier and more efficient change perhaps. It would allow full rigid metal helms, but limit the SCAdian grilling. It would also retain the cops rule this way. I do see Elebrim's point, a copped elbow to the eye from a high cross or something would be painful. I still disagree that we will see more injuries with metal cops however, but I do see his point for safety.

[The Great Gigsby]

This is just me, but I have no problem with SCA style bar grills. I actually think they look cool.

There's nothing in the BoW prohibiting doing the exact same thing with leather, why make an exception for metal? Just because SCA helms are marginally more accessible and affordable? There are extremely light leather and ninja brig helmets on the field that offer just as much protection with very few drawbacks. A min/max SCA style helm will still restrict your vision, mobility, and ability to grapple more than a leather equivalent or wearing nothing at all. Why add additional restrictions?

I guess what I'm saying is, not many people wear helmets in the first place. Why make it harder for people to wear them? They usually look great and add a bit of flavor and variety to our game.

Oh, and bargrills are period. People were protecting their face long before the SCA came about.

[Physic]

They also add a significant amount of protection. We don't judge any other armor by how bad it looks, why make it any different for this.

[Soo Ma Tai]

You have an excellent point Physic. I agree with you. If someone wants to come up with wording changes necessary to enact this change in rules, I will take it to WC for discussion and vote.

* Online WC- I have done WC both ways, live in person, and over the intrawebz. I must admit, the online voting is better. It allows for better discussion of topics, time for people to respond to each other without high emotions in the way, etc. It also gives everyone a vote.

A lot of things that would have been voted on in the past were not even brought to vote because through discussion we learned that the rule(s) brought forward weren't in our best interests as a group. Online WC works, and is better and more efficient, than doing it in person.

[Derian]

I don't want to derail the thread more than it already is, but I think the naysayers are underestimating the importance of allowing all realms to get their say regardless of geographic location. As it stands, there isn't too much Western attendance at Armageddon and there isn't too much Eastern attendance at Chaos Wars. Both sides are an important part of Belegarth and neither side should be excluded. This is also to say nothing of realms outside of the continental US, of which there is a rapidly growing number. It might be hard for us to travel 12 hours to an event, but imagine if you had to do 18 and cross a country's border? Not fun, I imagine.

Like I said, if someone can come up with a better way to do things, I'm sure everyone would be all ears.

[Arrakis]

Everyone should note that if SCA-type bar-grills are allowed, the difference between "bargrill that has bars close enough together to be considered armor under Belegarth rules" and "bargrill that is only safety equipment as far as the Bel rules are concerned" will need to be clarified (it's obvious from the rules for brigandine and composite armor, really) and the difference will need to be made known to archers so they aren't wasting arrows on bargrills that are proof or neglecting the "open" faces of non-armor bargrills.

That said, I think allowing SCA helms is a wonderful idea. I was starting to think I'd have to buy helmets separately for each sport.

[Oisin]

SCA helmets look like crap and shouldn't be allowed.

If they are, bar grills should never count as armour and any projectile hit to a bar grill should count as a hit to the face.

[Physic]

SCA helmets look like crap and shouldn't be allowed.

If they are, bar grills should never count as armour and any projectile hit to a bar grill should count as a hit to the face.

I agree that bar grills should not count as armor against projectiles. They should be for personal protection.

The other comment is just silly. There are nice ones and crappy ones, just like the helms we see on our field.

[Kage]

Soo, I think you would be the perfect man for the job of taking it to the WC discussion. I purposely limited the number of bars to five but some of the really nice helms had more than that. I think you could possibly come up with some thing much better. I also like and agree with Arrakis' thoughts of having the bars be no more than what we require for other armor. It's simple and makes sense.

[Oisin]

SCA helmets look like crap and shouldn't be allowed.

If they are, bar grills should never count as armour and any projectile hit to a bar grill should count as a hit to the face.

I agree that bar grills should not count as armor against projectiles. They should be for personal protection.

The other comment is just silly. There are nice ones and crappy ones, just like the helms we see on our field.

Sorry, allow me to rephrase: Bar grills look like crap is what I meant.

[Kage]

Not all bar grills look like crap. It just depends on the person and how much they enjoy looking great wearing their stuff. Some don't care that they look like crap on the field. Granted most of the really nice helms (i.e. the example I have given) are REALLY expensive. In a way it can show just how dedicated someone is to their sport or craft if you will.



http://media.photobucket.com/image/sca%20helm/wyldehunt/armor/Helm.jpg

http://www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/index.php?main_page=popup_image&pID=546

http://www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/index.php?main_page=popup_image&pID=535

[The Lost Celt]

Just throwing this out there, but I was always under the impression that bargrills were considered a safety hazard due to potential finger entrapment.
I could only really see this happening in a dogpile, where crazy things happen and people get injured over much stupider ****.

Putting the phrase non-period bargrills kinda seems silly, we allow armor made from period materials but most the examples we see on the field is far from period and not always very protective, so it kinda seems like a double standard when you have something that's actually designed to protect an individual against harsher standards.

I kinda get the question of whether missile weapons should count on bargrills wheras the equivalant would be open faced but I think that's kinda weak, a simple solution would be to cover the portions that might be considered a safety hazard in armor grade leather and it all becomes moot.

As far as cops I'd love to see them in metal, I'm not worried about knees but elbows kinda worry me...