Amt style Throwies

[Sir Par]

Last year a few of us attended Salt Wars in salt lake and we saw a weapon type we like. They have body only legal "throwies." They were most commonly in the shape of axes. One of their knights, Sir Fitz, had several very well made throwing axes. They were mostly blue foam with just a tad of open cell added to them. I am going to make a bunch and play test them heavily this spring at practice. I have all the rules worked out for them except for one. The only problem I'm seeing with them is how to count the hit.

Heres what were looking at.

They would be a non-head legal throwing weapon
They would do the kind of damage as javs, arrows, and greens (piercing style) except that Armor would negate them & you'd be able to block them with weapons.
You couldn't use them to strike with (no core)
They would be like javs in the respect that the thrower can not call their shots, but it would be the fighter who took it on feel.

The main issue is determining when you received a good hit. In amtgard they simply say that any throwie that hits you scores a hit, regardless of what part of it hits you. I understand the trouble in this (every throwie is a death ray) but it seems to work for them and they don't have any issues with them being OP, nor do they have a bevy of them flooding their field.

I think this fulfills all the rules of thumb when looking at a new weapon. It doesn't make another weapon obsolete (Rocks still do head shots, Javs still have the ability to go through armor) It doesn't seem to be super OP (at least from my amt experience. They would have a max range of about 15 feet and armor and shields make them worthless. Plus their range make them iffy.) And they add a new dimension to the game (trowing weapons that are weak, but you trade off easy of carry and use). I especially see spear and red users being excited about these. I'd like to get some initial input from the Bel community before I playtest. I will be sure to share the results. If they work for us I'd like a few other realms to play test and they like em maybe push for a national rule. Let me know what you think.

[Sir Anastasia]

I tell everyone in my realm they can't make these..god I hope they don't find this thread.

I am somewhat concerned about projectiles deemed unsafe for head contact. I mean, how do you pull a shot after they are thrown? Well, you can't. Also, I can imagine having more accurate throwing weapons could really change the look of the game AND I think it would look a little silly. I think it would look very similar to games where fireball bean bags do damage to players. Maybe I'm wrong and these things are much cooler than that, but if so...please post pics.

[Todo]

I'm pretty sure that tho no headshots things is more for game balance than for actual safety.

I think it sounds kind of fun, but Haft would be sort of hard to distinguish. Definitely worth a playtest.

[The Great Gigsby]

I hate the idea and am completely opposed to it.

Amtgard style throwing weapons work fine for Amtgard where battlegames (not ditches) are more about strategic positioning and the usage of class abilities. Only certain classes in Amtgard can use throwies, and in that case, that ability comes at some cost, like the inability to wear heavy armor, carry enchantments, or cast certain spells. If everyone could use them, then most people would because a well weighted shuriken, dagger, or axe can be thrown very accurately, and quickly without putting yourself in much risk. They're not incredibly OP in Amtgard because you can have multiple points of armor, and all kinds of enchantments and abilities to protect yourself.

Really, it just changes the game too much. I'm a sixth level assassin in 'gard, and when I want to min/max the class, I go in with at least a half dozen duct tape covered throwing daggers and go to town shot-gunning people in the legs and shoulders. In Belegarth, something equivalent (and don't get me started on rocks) would be way overpowered.

Javelins are balanced. They have advantages and disadvantages that have been tested continually in our game. The same goes for archery and rocks. As much as I love change, I don't think adding an additional class of weapons and making Belegarth more of a projectile/range game would be an improvement.

[Todo]

Lots of good points even if I am an Amtfag

I believe we have our playtesting right there...

[Freyson]

Not a bad start for a new weapon class discussion, but a few more things need to be spelled out.

What would be the construction specifications for these? Are these weapons supposed to be a specific weapon type such as a thrown ax, or a general category of thrown weapons?

Would the head be an illegal target (as with sword to head), or merely an unaffected target (as with rock to helmet)?

If the head is an illegal target, would the weapon need to be padded head legal anyway?

If the head is an unaffected target, but the weapon is safe for head shots, can it be thrown at the head as a distraction?

Why is the maximum range about 15', is that the rule or just an observation based upon construction? What happens when a design comes along with a more effective range?

Would these need to hit with a specific area of the weapon like a javelin tip versus haft, or would any part be a hit? And how do you expect someone to tell the difference in combat?

[Forkbeard]

This is totaly stupid for every reason that Giggles wrote. Way to hit the nail on the **** head. Amt, through their class/level system, creates an environment where everyone IS NOT equal. Some can't use these weapons and some are effectivly immune to them. This is why the dont flood their field, you twit.
Bel, well it was Dag back then, had throwing daggers back in the dark ages. Know what happened? people just sat behind shields trying to snipe eachother with gay little bits if foam flying through the air. Everyone made a bag(I know this is your plan Par) and hooked it to the inside of thier shield and thought they were a little tank. After this became too gay to stand, they got rid of them. Becuase they are stupid.
No only do I say no yo your idea, I say **** NO and this ain't happening at any event I have anything to do with. I'm sorry for the people of your realm. They shouldn't have to put up with this crap.
FB

[Loptr]

Lots of good points even if I am an Amtfag

I believe we have our playtesting right there...

A truly intelligent and unbiased post.
What is the term for a cross game xenephobe?

L

[Poo]

I fought amtgard for awhile at the beginning of my foam fighting career, and throwies were one of the reason i switched to bel. Just like forkbeard said, it becomes a snowball fight. Everyone running around throwing duct tape covered blocks of foam at eachother. pretty soon we'll be adding spells, and putting a cap on hit strength.

[Sir Par]

Giggles & Fork: I'm trying to do some work to make sure that they don't OP on our field by making them incredibly limited. Instead of straight out shooting the idea down, and insulting me in the process, why don't you wait until we have some play test data before you go on a foam fighting Jihad. Fork, you have no idea what my intent is. I can already hook a bag of weapons inside my shield and huck them around, and yet you don't see me carrying a ton of rocks around do you? No, in fact i don't use rocks at all and I rarely use my jav. What I am trying to do is add something to the sport. If you don't like the idea that's fine and your perfectly right to say so and why, but lets not let this become personal eh? As for my realm mates go all of the ones I've talked to are all for play testing this and helping me see if there's a way we can add them to our game without making them over balanced. If there's no way to do so then obviously it will never get passed at WC, but there's no reason to say no until its at least been tried.

Freyson and Anastasia: Thanks for your informed feedback and your questions. Those are all questions I'm trying to find a way to answer with some play testing. I have looked at the way Amt does it but obviously our incorporation of them will have to be different to satisfy our rule set. When the season starts up i should be able to give you some answers. The fifteen foot effective range isn't a rule idea, but an observation of flight patters from when I saw them used.

Poo: Adding thrown weapons is not a slippery slope to spell use. The throwing axe is one of the most common and widely used weapons in the middle ages. It would be a perfectly historical addition to our rule set without taking us too far into the fantastical.

[Todo]

Lots of good points even if I am an Amtfag

I believe we have our playtesting right there...

A truly intelligent and unbiased post.
What is the term for a cross game xenephobe?

L

It was a joke, ya big palook.

[Poo]

Poo: Adding thrown weapons is not a slippery slope to spell use. The throwing axe is one of the most common and widely used weapons in the middle ages. It would be a perfectly historical addition to our rule set without taking us too far into the fantastical.

Yes, but a historical throwing axe would have to strike with the blade or metal part to deal any significant damage. Sure, a chunk of wood hucked at someone would hurt like a son of a *, but in our game, rocks only kill to the head. I'd take a piece of wood over a rock to the chest any day.

The problem having throwing axes or daggers is that there's no way to gauge whether it struck with the blade. Its easy with javelins, but an axe could be so small, you'd never know for sure. This leads to the * (pardon the reference) throwies that amtgard loves so much. A bunch of rubber bands covered in a layer of foam, and several layers of duct tape is not an accurate representation of a throwing weapon.

If we do somehow allow thrown weapons and require a striking surface to hit, then we'll start getting people making stuff that could represent, say, a ball covered in spikes, or just a blade, thats sharp on all sides. And that leads to * throwies and balls.

Another playability issue that i touched on in my last post was the snowball fight. I don't know if you've ever fought in an amtgard militia battle, but its basically amtgard rules with no spells, and everyone can use every equipment. I'm sure anyone would agree with me that being able to throw something a someone and kill them would be preferable to hitting them with a sword, any day.

So, by tactical logic, having a bag of throwies or even just a few, (and collecting those thrown at you) takes a lot less effort, and will give you more success than going in with a sword and board. At that point, we should just go play nerf... or paintball. This leads to everyone standing back and throwing stuff at eachother.

This also adds a giant cleanup time at the end of every battle. You think waiting just for arrows and javs is a long wait? Try waiting for every little foam ball on the field to be found. We'd spend a good 10-15 mins cleaning up throwies at the end of every battle at my amtgard park.

Yeah, throwies leading to spells is a stretch... i take that one back.

[Arrakis]

I don't usually do this, but: Sounds dumb. It'll unbalance the game and be silly. If you wanna play the ranged game, go play paintball; I'm here to get up close and personal, * it.

[Rasheab]

Par, we have been on the recieving end of this idea, and it was unpleasant.

A year and a half back, we helped organize a inter-organization game day. Our realm met up with two independent groups, at one of the group's home field. Each group used their own equipment, on a gentleman's agreement between the various group's leaders that the equipment was checked and safe.

As ordinarily happens, eventually some "home vs. away" battles were organized. The home team allowed throwing weapons as you describe, we had a few javelins, and the other independent group doesn't allow throwing weapons.

The end result was this: the home team would run up to within 15ft of our team(s) line, stop, throw a volley or two, then retreat. Almost no deaths, some people lost an arm or a leg (lots of shields on our parts). Rinse and repeat. After this happened another 3-4 times, the mop up began. Between the home ground advantage (more fighters), and the accumulation of wounds (and some deaths), the result is pretty clear.

I've played with them a few other times when I was visiting friends. An alright group of people, but it just isn't very fun to expect a fight and then have a "throwing *" (or throwing "coaster") hit you. It's like fighting against rocks, but having to guard your entire body, instead of just your head. It's possible, but it gets old, and just isn't very much fun. (Add fireballs, and you have Amtgard battle games.)

Ryker was there the day I mentioned; I'll send him a message and see if he wants to share his impression. (While a limited "play test," it certainly wasn't very fun to play against. I could deal with it for limited periods, like battle games, but as a general weapon option I am against it.)

[Skydd]

I don't usually do this, but: Sounds dumb. It'll unbalance the game and be silly. If you wanna play the ranged game, go play paintball; I'm here to get up close and personal, * it.

QFT. They work for Amtgard, but as others have stated, this is Belegarth.

It's a great idea on paper. Rocks that can cause injury everywhere. Let's face it, rocks are a joke in our game. They're used to punk someone who isn't expecting it, and they never work twice against someone. Make them beefy, and I will guarantee you that every single person on a national field will carry these little buggers.Our game is already ranged heavy. Think of how a single battle can be prolonged for several minutes because the final people alive all want javies or arrows. This just makes it worse.

Javelins are big, archers are pretty easy to pick out of a crowd and have to do a complete gear change for melee combat. There is no playable downside to a ranged weapon like this. At least with rocks now, they're only head legal.

[Forkbeard]

You're not adding anything new to the sport, Par. You tryibg to bring something unbalancing and super gay BACK from the PAST.
Do your **** homework, throwing weapons USED to be allowed. Do some searches on it. Here or better yet on the Dag Board. They were reduced in power until they were only head legal and helmets can stop them. That is where playtesting throwing weapons leads. To **** rocks. Did you really think it happened the other way around?
Thats why I'm totaly against this crap. It's been done before and well finished. We have throwing weapons in plenty.
Also, if you can throw a real axe at someone and stick it in them, while BOTH of you are involved in combat, I'll buy you **** dinner. In fact, I say tou can't hit a target and stick it on the run at all. Especialy at varried ranges. I'm a pretty good knife thrower. I watch real good knife and axe throwers at the Rondezvous. I do not believe thrown blade weapons could be anything more than a distraction in real combat. Except when used from behind defenses or maybe a sheild wall when used against unarmored, inept oppnents. This would also take intensive training of the throwers.
I insult you personaly becuase you are a long term member of this comunity and should know this stuff already, or look it up before you get started.
Get bent.
FB

[Sir Par]

Again,

Thanks for your input everyone. It seems there are some very good reasons not to do it, and at very least some good data on why not to do it. I appreciate everyone who has tried them weighing in. Is there anyone out there who has a positive experience to share? I'm still going to make them, and try them out, and if they don't work then at least I'll have them for the one amt event I try and attend each year. I will let you all know if there is a way I can solve any of Freyson's and Poo's concerns.

[Satanaka]

Sorta sounds like a "ROCK' that counts with body hits.... It did use to be around and was sorta pushed to the side. I don't mean to sound negative- I just can't see how this would bmake Belegarth better and more fun. Hmmmm..... I don't think I like the sound of it. I'd rather bring back the "Healer" before this.

many throws are SO uncontrolled- I have sorta thought about this and it just seems to be more trouble than it is worth as well as not something that Adds to fun and ease of play.

Maybe I am wrong.

[Poo]

many throws are SO uncontrolled- I have sorta thought about this and it just seems to be more trouble than it is worth as well as not something that Adds to fun and ease of play.

Maybe I am wrong.

Well ****, i have some throwies still from my amtgard days. I'll bring some to an event and show you how accurate and powerfully i can throw them. I have a hammer that i can throw at least as far as you can shoot an arrow.

[Oznog]

I play Amt.

The throwies thing is not quite THAT much of a "problem". Yes, they are kinda cheesy because for playability and safety no minimum force is required, and there's no way to enforce a realistic "throwing form". So javelins, which are historical and must be tossed somewhat realistically to make work, are more often superseded by foam "shuriken" or "daggers" which are underhand or sidehand "tossed", usually as a sneak attack combined with a melee attack. This is often far more effective than a full-body throw which telegraphs to everyone and they duck. Throwies are very easy to block if you have any kind of warning.

Normally these types of throws would never cause any effective sort of damage, but the rules count it. The idea of an ~8" long "throwing dagger" doesn't exist outside of fantasy, they're quite difficult to throw and have end up point-first and too expensive and heavy/bulky to be expended as ammo. Rocks have certainly been thrown throughout history, usually fist-sized, but hand-thrown rocks are usually just an annoyance. SLING-launched stones are devastating and definitely saw some military use.

When a javelin's like 3 ft long, you can't really do these underhanded or side-handed throws because the wrist-flick movement is ineffective. The throw really needs to come from the shoulder, which is basically "valid" in a historical and physical sense.

Nevertheless, I don't recall Amt militia battles which really descending into a "snowball fight" of throwies in constant motion. In truth, they just don't get used that much, people wise up to them.

There was a time where throwie size wasn't well specified, and the rules weren't clear on this point- sometimes people would carry multiple throwies and just chuck 3 at once or something. That was generally frowned upon in groups when it happened, and now it's officially not legal.

[Angmarth]

While I will agree with Fork's synopsis, I also argue that if a group would like to alter the rules for play testing at their park they should do so. Arnor has play tested MANY alternate rules throughout the years, and holds to many of them as local variations of the national rule set.

Here is a list of a few things we have tried but did not keep, in case anyone is interested. (There is a house rules post around here somewhere with the variations we still use.)

1) Light weapons do "green" damage. (Light was defined as less than 12oz. We tried this before the rule change.)
2) All flails do "green" damage. (This was also tried before the rule change.)
3) All great weapons (over 4') are considered "Red". (A shield may only be broken with a strike, not a stab. This effectively made 1 handed spear strikes "blue", but kept the shield breaking away from spears.) I actually liked this one, and thought it made sense. It solved a couple of problems, and would certainly not be opposed to discussing a nation rule change on this.

[Satanaka]

I guess I was looking at people getting hit in the head- as a control type. So- like the 1/2 draw aspect of archery & Javs.

Well ****, i have some throwies still from my amtgard days. I'll bring some to an event and show you how accurate and powerfully i can throw them. I have a hammer that i can throw at least as far as you can shoot an arrow.

[Loptr]

It was a joke, ya big palook.

I appreciate the clarity. Based on your past posts I thought that might be the case. Stoopid interwebs not carrying sarcasm in content.

Lets have a beer at Chaos.

L

[Todo]

I agree wholeheartedly.

[Brennon EH]

Throwing weapons aren't much of a problem in Amtgard because we make a distinction between 'battlegames' and 'ditching'. We don't use armor, projectiles, classes, etc in 'ditching' so we are willing to tolerate rather more of them in 'battlegames'.

That said, throwing weapons are rarely a big deal in a battlegame; it's hard to worry about them when you've got a ton of other far more powerful class abilities (plus magic) flying around.

Anyway, I don't think it's a good fit for Belegarth. When you push two lines together they do chuck volleys of throwing weapons before engaging, and it's sort of boring.

Also, rocks are lame.