Comments on Linothorax Thread/Cloth Armour

[Oisin]

This post is in response to the questions and answers found in this thread, because for whatever reason I've never bothered to get authorized to post in the rules forum:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=33798

I've actually spent a lot of time thinking about the issue of cloth armour, because the reality is that cloth armour was far, far more common in world history than leather armour, and there are a number of sources and experiments that suggest it is quite effective as armour (probably significantly more effective than leather as a standalone armour), especially against thrusting weapons which would have been the mainstay weapons of many of the world's battlefields.

In fact, I've even written full rules for cloth armour, just for my own amusement and as an exercise to see whether it's at all practical or practicable.

And my thought is, that Slagar's Reason #2/3 is the one, only, and definite reason that cloth armour will never and should never be included in the Belegarth rules. That person A, person B, and person C, who (hypothetically) successfully lobby for the inclusion of cloth armour in the ruleset will make awesome, interesting, and accurate cloth armours and then person D through person 10 million will make crappy, douchetastic, cheese the rules armour that's even worse that pocket brig--and armour checkers won't know enough to stop it until it's too late and this crap has just become part of the culture and has too much momentum to ban.

The other reasons listed are all bogus, although well-intentioned.

Slagar's Reason 1 (doesn't look like armour) isn't accurate, because if you know what cloth armour looks like and what to be looking for, it DOES look like armour and not like garb. Just like how we can all tell pocket brig apart from garb even though it doesn't look anything like armour. And, anyway, a linothorax does look like armour to the even moderately trained eye.

Skydd's response is similarly incorrect, you'd just have to write the rules well enough to make it work. According to my calculations, which have been double checked by several math people including Arrakis I believe, it would take 15 layers of 8 oz (canvasweight) linen or 25 layers of 5 oz (mediumweight) linen to equal or exceed the minimum requirements for leather armour, a layering requirement that actually works pretty well with the number of layers that we know an actual padded jack would have been composed of. It's a bit on the short side of historical padded jacks, but not too far out.

Also, just to quibble with the rules as they currently stand and something else Skydd said, leather does NOT encumber the wearer to anywhere near the same degree that any metal armour does. The simple fact of the matter is that leather weighs about 40% as much as equivalent metal armour (equivalent being 12 oz = 18 gauge, 16 oz = 16 gauge), and if constructed properly provides absolutely no limitation to range of movement--just like well-made metal armour. For comparison, that means that leather armour weighs only very slightly more than aluminum armour would. And that's even leaving aside cheesedickery like pocket brig or studded leather, which must be even lighter than that, I'd estimate probably 25% to 30% of the weight of metal armour.

All in all, I think it would be nice to be able to allow cloth armour, but I believe that it would be a stupid idea because it'd be too easy to cheese and too hard to enforce.

That being said, I think that on a case by case basis exceptions should be made--if I were checking weapons and somebody brought be a really well made linothorax laminated from enough layers to be as thick and hard as leather armour, I'd allow it with no qualms and a big high five.

[Oisin]

Actually, here's my original musings on the subject of cloth armour, originally posted on the Dag boards:

http://www.dagorhir.com/forums/index.php?topic=16022.0

[Big King Jimmy]

if I were checking weapons and somebody brought be a really well made linothorax laminated from enough layers to be as thick and hard as leather armour, I'd allow it with no qualms and a big high five.

Run your own event? We both know there's no way to float a "case by case" basis rule through war council, after that local realms can do whatever they want with their own events.

[Forkbeard]

I agree. Linothorax should count as armor and I will argue for it at any event I'm at. I like to think I have some pull with the authorities here abouts and Ive been waiting for some one to show up with some. A couple people have talked about it, but they never show. I know some other people around the west have accepted the idea. Greeks DID use it very sucessfully for a real long time.
I think it's going to be a case by case basis though. We can let in individual suits of quality based on the "natural materials" rule.
FB

[Oisin]

if I were checking weapons and somebody brought be a really well made linothorax laminated from enough layers to be as thick and hard as leather armour, I'd allow it with no qualms and a big high five.

Run your own event? We both know there's no way to float a "case by case" basis rule through war council, after that local realms can do whatever they want with their own events.

Of course, and I wouldn't want to float a rule, and wouldn't want to go through the pointless effort of trying to pass something through a war council that never passes significant rules changes. But if I were checking, at a national event or otherwise, and someone brought a good linothorax that's at least as thick and stiff as good, hard leather armour, I'd pass it regardless of the fact that it's not actually in the rules. Technically legal? No. But I also don't think there's a problem with making an occasional exception in the (very, very rare) case where something new and different is cool and not some noob trying to pass off his pet video game weapon.

In other words, I agree with FB, although it's worth noting that the linothorax is hypothetical only, and that there's no real proof that it's how the white shoulder harnesses we see in art were made.

[Elebrim]

Taken the liberty of copying over your ideas from the other forum for how a rules structure *could* look. It's got some interesting ideas.

x.x.x. Cloth armour

x.x.x.1. All fabric used must be composed of at least 90% natural fibers, specifically linen, hemp, silk, cotton or wool. Other natural fibers (such as bamboo fiber) may be allowed as well.

x.x.x.2. Armour may not be formed by adding studs to thinner fabrics as in studded leather armour, however this does not prohibit coats of plates or brigandines with cloth coverings as long as they meet the requirements for that type of armour.

x.x.x.2+x. I think I might be missing a few cleanup details here.

x.x.x.3. There are two types of cloth armour, armour made by laminating layers of cloth together with glue, wax or similar into a hard composite, and armour made by quilting layers of cloth together to produce a soft but thick and heavy fabric.

x.x.x.3.1. In order to pass as armour, laminated cloth armour must (at the sole discretion of the heralds checking armour) be at least as stiff, heavy and thick as water hardened 16 oz leather.

x.x.x.3.2. In order to pass as armour, quilted cloth armour must be composed of at least 15 layers of fabric that weighs no less than 8 oz per square yard.

x.x.x.2.3.1. Quilted cloth armour must have quilting lines sewn so that the armour is divided into stripes no more than 2 inches wide or squares no more than 4 inches wide. Different or creative quilting patterns may be approved at the discretion of the heralds checking armour, but they should have roughly that same area.

x.x.x.4. Cloth armour may never be used as a helmet, although it may be used as a gorget or similar protection for only the neck.

x.x.x.5. Extra padding may be added to otherwise legal armours, but armour may not be made just by sewing padding between fabric or leather that would not otherwise pass as armour.

[Big King Jimmy]

But if I were checking, at a national event or otherwise, and someone brought a good linothorax that's at least as thick and stiff as good, hard leather armour, I'd pass it regardless of the fact that it's not actually in the rules. Technically legal? No. But I also don't think there's a problem with making an occasional exception in the (very, very rare) case where something new and different is cool and not some noob trying to pass off his pet video game weapon.

While I understand your good intentions, if you were to do this at the only technically national events ('Geddon and Chaos) I'd ask the event coordinators to remove you from check and ban you from checking for the rest of the event, for deliberately allowing people to break the rules at the only events that REQUIRE they be followed.

[Oisin]

But if I were checking, at a national event or otherwise, and someone brought a good linothorax that's at least as thick and stiff as good, hard leather armour, I'd pass it regardless of the fact that it's not actually in the rules. Technically legal? No. But I also don't think there's a problem with making an occasional exception in the (very, very rare) case where something new and different is cool and not some noob trying to pass off his pet video game weapon.

While I understand your good intentions, if you were to do this at the only technically national events ('Geddon and Chaos) I'd ask the event coordinators to remove you from check and ban you from checking for the rest of the event, for deliberately allowing people to break the rules at the only events that REQUIRE they be followed.

/me shrugs.

Whatever. I've never been to either of those events and likely never will be, so it doesn't really matter to me . . . but if it's really worth your time about one piece of armour that while not technically legal is within the spirit of the rules (and I would argue like hell against anything that isn't of exceptional quality and doesn't meet and exceed the requirements for leather armour, except made of laminated cloth), then I guess you can do what you want.

Specifically, though, I was referring to national events in a looser fashion, and more specifically, I was referring to those times when my unit has run weapons checks at the Tennessee events.

[Arrakis]

But if I were checking, at a national event or otherwise, and someone brought a good linothorax that's at least as thick and stiff as good, hard leather armour, I'd pass it regardless of the fact that it's not actually in the rules. Technically legal? YES.

FTFY. There is NOTHING in the rules that says a checker CAN'T pass a suit of armor made out of "period materials" as required in the rules that is made of a material whose minimum specifications aren't explicitly laid out in the BoW (metal and leather and studded/composite).

That is, any non-standard armor materials/constructions pass at the discretion of the weapons checkers. I would refer all such decisions to the Head Weapons Checker at an event I was checking at, along with my recommendation (Pass or Fail).

[Derian]

Arrakis is right (again!).

1.4. Creative interpretation of the rules to gain any advantage is discouraged. These rules are intentionally sparse to allow for ease of use. The Marshal, according to these rules, and medieval foam combat precedent, settles all disputes.

If the BoW does not contain provisions for something (like cloth armor) and does not specifically disallow it (it does not), then it isn't illegal. A marshal has the ability to pass it as they see fit, even at Geddon or Chaos.

[Oisin]

Cheers, thanks for the backup Arrakis.

[Davit]

Comments on the legality of using rules as such on the national field aside..... How hard is this stuff to tell from heavily starched fabric? That's my only concern with it from the conversation so far. Other than that I'm impressed by the research that has been done on this, nice job yet again Osin.

[Oisin]

How much does the leather of your leather coat look like hardened leather greaves?

If it isn't laminated so that it's at least about 1/4" thick, maybe even thicker, and very stiff and inflexible, then it's not good enough.

Here's a picture of one recreation and what it might look like and be capable of:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ERSx1o8wwk

It's also worth pointing out that there is very little historical and no archaeological evidence that this is how the white harness of the ancient Greeks was made. It's mostly speculative, and although the final look is correct, there could have been leather or metal elements involved in the construction. Athens, for example, is known to have produced a fairly large amount of white leather during the classical period, and while there is ABSOLUTELY NO evidence that it was ever used as armour (it was in fact a luxury good), it is at least possible.

Again, just as a note, as it stands, I would NOT be in favor of admitting this for general use in armour for anyone in Belegarth. I would be in favor of allowing this only in exceptional circumstances.

[Davit]

The issue here is not how different it looks from everyday wear, it's how quickly someone can differentiate it from standard garb in the midst of fighting.

Using the standard 3 (safety, playability and realism) you have 2 of 3 in my book.
Easily done:
Safety: This stuff is obviously safe if made correctly, and no more dangerous than poorly made leather armor.
Realism: Realistic, well you've done the research and I am willing to take your word (and the word of those on the video) for it, so realism is not an issue.

The issue:
Playability: However, playability is an issue. Realistically, it needs to be EASILY discernible from garb, this rule: 3.7.2. Composite Armor must be identifiable as Armor by appearance, was put into place to combat this with things like brig where people would basically put so much cloth on it so it was hard to see where the armor was on a person. I personally think that the rule should apply to any armor, but that's just me. Unless it's laminated (which by the way looks cool as hell), then how hard is it to tell from the standard cloth. Yes I can imagine that it is stiff, but most people won't notice that because our game is fast, so unless this issue is taken care of, this sort of armor is a no-go.

Here is my big issue with the whole thing

Again, just as a note, as it stands, I would NOT be in favor of admitting this for general use in armour for anyone in Belegarth. I would be in favor of allowing this only in exceptional circumstances.

Rules are supposed to be impartial, as a checker of any sort. I try to be as impartial as possible and I don't think just because it's exceptionally crafted I should allow something that does not follow the rules. If you want to get this sort of armor in Belegarth than we need it to be easily discernible from garb armor, because we can't just say, "Oisin we like you, let's pass this stuff because you worked so hard on it and it looks cool." We need to be prepared for the onslaught of the general people who play Bel, not just for the crazily informed and willing to go the extra mile to make cool **** (which we only get about 1 out of 100 times when talking about people).

Summary, Cloth armor CAN look cool and if done right COULD be a neat addition to Belegarth, but just like leather armor the majority of it would be crap and with it not being easily discernible from normal garb I don't see how it can be put into our current rule set.

[Sir Anastasia]

I thought it looked exactly like leather painted white from the video. I don't see why this would be a playability issue. Perhaps there can be a thickness requirement for it like leather or another standard that could keep inferior examples off the field. I would only have a problem with it if it was flopsy and thin.

[Elebrim]

Summary, Cloth armor CAN look cool and if done right COULD be a neat addition to Belegarth, but just like leather armor the majority of it would be crap and with it not being easily discernible from normal garb I don't see how it can be put into our current rule set.

So the logical solution would be to make it meet more rigorous requirements, especially among which making it required that such armor is in fact laminated and not just 1/4" thick layered cloth. I agree with Anastasia that the video presented the linothorax as very similar to leather. I thought it was perfectly discernible, more so than some poorly made leather as you yourself mention.

[debuenzo]

I'd say the linothorax posted was more discernable as armor than some "ninja brig," as well.

[bo1]

if you watch that video, with the sound off, and dont think that armor is leather, you are lieing. it looks like armor, it acts like armor, it wieghs like armor, and it incumburs like armor.

rules as written seems to be sparse enough to allow it. i dont see a problem with it. as long as it satisfies the thinkness standards, 3/16ths, then you are golden in my book.

is this something i need to be aware of for arm, if so we should get a vote for WC. just for clarification, even though it sounds like it isnt going to be an issue.

[Oisin]

I am not building one and I don't think anyone else is either.

In any case, I really don't think it should be added to the rules.

[Derian]

I think the best way to do it will be on a case by case basis until some of this armor actually exists. This is all theoretical at this point. Once someone actually brings some to an event, have a checker take a look at it. If it's cool, sure, allow it, then we can discuss modifying the BoW having actually seen more than a youtube video.