No Healers in Belegarth?

[Ora]

If this is already covered somewhere, please direct me to the thread. (I have also put this into the other Rules forum)
Other than that...

Why were the rules for Healers/Healing stricken from the Book of War? I know there are people out there who are interested in being Healers... where are the rules? I'd like to see them put back into the Book of War. After all, Belegarth DOES have people interested in other things beyond fighting and stick-jockery.

Here are the rules as they were written back-in-the-day:

HEALING
Healers can turn the tides of battle and have the ability to off-balance the entire game. For these reasons healers have strict governing laws.
To become a Healer you must submit a typed or legible handwritten copy of your Poem of Healing to the secretary/treasurer. After doing so, you have total of 5 days of battle practice to learn to recite your Poem of Healing. Until then, you may carry a copy of the Poem with you onto the field, or you may simply count to one hundred. After your five days of practice you will be expected to know your Poem by memory and will be expected to recite it to the secretary/treasurer. If you stumble over words, or forget several words or lines of your Poem, you may be asked to take more time to learn the Poem and will not be made a Healer. If you can recite your Poem without difficulty you will be made a Healer and may make your services known when you are on the field. If you have lost a leg and are way out in the boonies and alone, you can wait for someone to come by and send them for help, crawl to where you think you can find help, or commit suicide. If you have both legs stabbed, or pierced with arrows, you cannot even crawl anywhere. You can only drag yourself with your arms. It might be advisable to kill yourself, if your character’s personality permits doing so.

• No, the healing poem cannot be read backwards or forwards with the intention of “damaging” anyone. This is not an aspect of this game’s role-playing.

• No kind of “magic” other than healing is part of the Dur-Demarion system of role-playing.

SAMPLE HEALING POEM
Child of Valor, Bairn of Battle at my feet you lie.
Runes to trace and spells to cast as fallen comrades die.
Armour rent and mail torn by weapons caked in gore.
Those who fight like snarling wolves and razor-tusked boar.
Cloven helm and severed limb, the battles ax as hewn.
Bodies sprouting feathered shafts about the field are strewn.
Carrion fowl and battle raven circle overhead.
With taloned claws and breaks to pick the bones of valiant warrior dead.
Child of Valor, Bairn of Battle harm has come your way.
Blood of bravery be renewed to fight another day.
Sword of Arthur, Hammer of Thor, silver shield and spear.
Rise and wield your weapon now against the danger near.
Fang of cobra, bite of spider, heat of Dragon flame.
Valiant warrior again does rise and goes back from whence he came.

[Davit]

In my opinion, this rule was stricken for the same reason weight minimums were added, the majority of belegarth realms like it this way. By the time they were stricken, we had gotten to be a game where people would see one healer battle a year at some random event, and 80% of the people on the field would leave until those battles were over. I believe we are more of a sport than most people like to admit, and we really leave magic to other games.

Also, if you believe that healers are a valid thing to have in our sport, bring them back, you're going to have to start at your realm level, convince enough people that it's a good idea to playtest it at practices, and then events, and then bring those results to a WC vote at some point. I really don't believe in our current environment that it will pass however.

[Ora]

Well, Healing has its origins in Pentwyvern then redeveloped for use in Dur-Demarion, so I guess it'll have to have a resurrection there as well. Its sad, though, that our "game" has become so much a sport that its 'kicking to the curb' anything other than swinging sticks.

[Angmarth]

There is nothing stopping DD from making healing a house rule. We have several house rules in Arnor that are not in the book of war. We have them because we think they make the game better. At any event that DD hosts, there is nothing stopping you from reactivating healing.

[Ora]

Too true, Angmarth. I was just wondering why Healing was removed from the "national" rules when everything else from the "old days" was re-implemented when the rules were adjusted for Belegarth's foundation.

[Cyric]

I'm pretty sure it was axed at the time of the split. there haven't been healers for a very long time. That was also around the time that everyone was a healer, and healing at events got ridiculous. But like Angmarth said, get it brought back in DD.

[Derian]

IIRC, it was because the War Council at the time felt that they shouldn't be part of the Book of War because they were only used very rarely as part of specific battles. As I understand it, it wasn't necessarily to remove healers completely from the game, but rather to keep what had turned into scenario specific rules out of the base rules, similar to how there are no rules for capture the flag in the BoW.

[Ora]

I guess my concern would be, if Healing is brought back locally by Dur-Demarion, not with a "national" level set of rules, it'll turn into what knighthood is to Belegarth with no standardized set of rules. It was my understanding that with the re-writing of our rules on a KISS system we would keep things simplified in such a way that anyone/realm could implement them, much in the same way there are rules for archers. Granted, I know the greatest majority of our foam-fighting organization could give a rat's * about non-fighters or anything not dealing with swinging a foam-covered stick, but IMHO completely eliminating the rules simply because not all realms have Healers is much like slamming the door in the face of the idea.
Sure, Dur-Demarion could implement Healers on the field at events such as Beltaine and Equinox, but will that mean that Dur-Demarion would be the only realm allowed to have Healers during battles because they're the only realm that has rules for them? Do you see where I'm going with this?
Truly, what harm does it do to have the rules available "nationally" for those who're interested in being a Healer? New realms would then have the choice of having healers of their own and when visiting other realms for events and such there wouldn't be any confusion about the rules of Healers/Healing.
Why is it simply because some people frown upon role play that the idea of it has been completely cut out of our game/sport... that the idea is so unappealing to some that we can't even make mention of it in our rules system? The basis of our organization has its roots within the Lord of the Rings and role playing and taking away the set of rules for the one role play aspect ON our fighting field is like telling people we only dress like this because that's how they dress in the books. If we're eliminating the idea of role play, why don't we just fight in jeans and tee-shirts and call one another by the names our parents gave to us? If all this game has become is controlled aggression then we might as well just be playing football. Cutting out the Healer/Healing rule from the game system tells those of us who've been around for many years that the part of the game/sport that we came to love is no longer important enough, simply because not everyone likes to role play.

[Slagar]

If we're eliminating the idea of role play, why don't we just fight in jeans and tee-shirts and call one another by the names our parents gave to us?

I already fight in gi pants, and I'd fight in a jersey in a heartbeat. The reason I'm Slagar is because there are seven 'Andrews' I've met already. Same reason footballers have numbers. I'm not the only one, either, not by a long shot.

If all this game has become is controlled aggression then we might as well just be playing football.

First off, it's not about agression, any more than any other martial art. It's about competition, both physical and mental. Don't presume like that. Also, I hate football. I can't stand playing it. Fun to watch, though.

Secondly, the rules, and War Council's decisions about them, reflect the opinion of the majority of Belegarth, by definition. This isn't 'some people', it's most people. It's not 'unappealing to some', most people can't stand the idea, and actively voted to change things, through their realm reps.

If you think that this should be back, than you've got a lot of lobbying ahead of you. Show people how much fun role playing can be, convince them that they want this option. Otherwise you're the minority, however vocal, and complaining about being in the minority doesn't exactly have a history of rousing success, as far as strategies go.

[Big King Jimmy]

Ora, I'm going to give that to my critical think instructor for use as a classic example of the "slippery slope" fallacy. "We took away healing 8 and a half years ago, soon we'll be fighting in jeans and jerseys!"

I understand your perspective, but I don't think you're seeing the perspectives of others or even trying to. Let's put it this way:

The rules have been gone for 8 years. You didn't notice.

Now, how would it work if Dur-d brought them back? Let me explain that because it's a good question. First of all, whenever anyone runs an event, they should ask themselves a really good question. "Are you going to use the Book of War?" It's a good question to ask because YOU DON'T HAVE TO. I'm not trying to yell, it's just a point a lot of people miss. Only 2 events are required to use the BoW, Chaos (as far as I know) and Geddon, as national events. Every other event is run by a realm, and can be run with whatever rules they see fit.

Now, when we did have healers I never saw anyone "play a healer." What I did see were maybe 2 fighters that had "healing poems" on the back of their shields. The rules for healing was that you had to, while keeping body contact, recite a poem X number of syllables long (150?). That is nothing like knighthood. If healer rules are used, anyone can be a healer. Healing poems were checked at weapons check, in much the same fashion armor is now (This was checked at SOME event this year, it's fine.)

So, if Dur-D (or any realm) could decide that it wanted to use custom rules at their event. It would use the BoW plus or minus a thing here and there. For example "we will be using the BoW, plus these rules for healing:" Those healers could come from any realm. Just because Arnor brings a punch shield to an event doesn't mean it breaks in one red hit, even though that's their home rule. Likewise just because you can't heal at home, maybe Beltaine will become THE event for all those people who want to do healing, because they allow it. It's possible.

But if we include them in the national rules, they must be used in any battle at every event that is using the BoW. There's no rules in the BoW that starts with "In battles where we say it's okay, you can:" and that's the way the rules were used before. If I remember correctly the rule actually was stated as "in rules where healers are allowed:" None of those types of rules were kept in the conversion from the MoA to the BoW. What we DO have is a wiki full of rules for custom battles, including healers, which no one ever uses.

Why not? Well, because at most Belegarth events, we don't like those kinds of rules. That's my theory anyway. I've seen them used at single day Dag events, and most Belegarth fighters would leave the field. I mean, look at bridge battles, half the field walks off. I have seen one mini-event, Loderia's yearly event where a full day custom scenario was embraced. I've also seen a single battle embraced this way at a Dag event, that lasted about an hour. But when it was done Belegarth fighters were happy to move onto something else.

So, in conclusion, in order to change a rule, any rule, I THINK these are the proper steps:

1. Use this rule change in your own practice.

2. Have an event, hopefully a weekend one that is already popular. Announce that at this event you will be using custom rules that you use in your own realm. These rules include: __________. Lord of War was a great example of using this system with a ton of changes to create a very different event.

3. Gauge peoples reactions, and get their opinions on these rules changes.

4. After several years of this, if you find this to be popular, and you get a lot of people from all over who enjoy it, bring it up to war council. Hopefully these people will encourage their own realm to vote in favor of the change.

This system would work a lot better than just trying to throw things out to war council, but people who run large weekend events are hesitant to make changes to the rules, with the fear it will hurt attendance.

[Forkbeard]

The last time I saw a healer was about 8 years ago at Chaos War.
I liked the healing rules. We could still use them. But no one wants to be a healer. The last person who did was about 8 years ago. So we stopped even talking about it.
Ora, have you been in prison?
I could go off on your stupid assumptions about what no healers means about belegarth and how we're all blood thirsty *, but Jimmy has it under control.
If people start wanting to use the healing rules, we'll start using them again.
Just like capture3 the flag. We didn't play that for a few year, but this last season we played alot and it was fun.
Don't get hung up on the Sport/game thing. They are not opposits(sp). Football is a sport. You play a game of football. Belegarth IS a sport. Battles are the game periods.
Ora, welcome back from the big house.
FB

[Soo Ma Tai]

I remember healers on the field at Dur-D practices in the 90's. There was almost always one or two. They were usually people who weren't into the heavy fighting but still wanted to get on the field and get a little in. Healers were only allowed to carry a single blue weapon, and no shield at that time though. At that time healing was not restricted to specific battle, but was a standard all the time, if a person wanted to go on the field and heal.

I see no issue with having healers, esp. with the weapons restriction. They would be easy archer fodder, and would hardly imbalance the game. I never saw a problem with them before and I don't now. I would see little issue with them being in the rules all the time. I don't think it would have to be specific scenarios just to allow healers.

I also feel that if for some reason the healers began to imbalance the field somehow, it would be easy enough to call scenario battle where healers were not allowed for whatever reason.

I guess I am saying I would be ok with the inclusion of healing in our ruleset, but IDK what the general population will think, or even if my own realm would vote yes on such a rule change.

[Ora]

Let me clear the personal issues out of the way:
First, no, I've not been in prison... nor under a rock... nor hit by a rock or meteorite
Secondly, thank you Forkbeark for pointing out a 'stupid assumption' in a forum that is designed for questions to be fielded and responded to in a manner that would well explain our rules and their development for all who are involved, or would be involved, in our organization. I applaud your personal decorum and control.

I can understand how one would assume this question came only from me, due to the fact that I'm the one who posted it, used the word "I" in my structuring and continued to field the questions and responses posted thereafter. However, that is not the case. Due to the fact that I was approached with this question and couldn't supply a completely knowledgeable answer I told the person who asked to contact our realm's representation. That person responded they couldn't get in contact with the reps and when I tried as well, for some unexplainable reason, I was unable to get in contact with any of our realm representation to learn the answer to this question either. I posted the question here where I knew someone (if not many someones) would be able to supply me with the answer. Now, due to the nature of the question, simply returning with an "it was taken out/never put into the BoW" reply would not suffice for those involved in this query. That in mind, I've learned in the past that investigating something to its fullest to return with as much information as possible is always the best solution to field any further questions about the situation... I'm sure you'd rather this not drag out for weeks at a time.

First off, it's not about agression, any more than any other martial art. It's about competition, both physical and mental. Don't presume like that.

Perhaps you're assuming I'm referring to only one definition of the word "aggression"? Aggression isn't just taking hostility or frustration out on someone or something, it's also any offensive action, practiced assaults or attacks.
As far as just throwing this into War Council for consideration for reinstatement, I've not done that. I've brought the question here, to what is supposed to be a place for Rules Discussion and Development, for open discussion to learn more about it. I had posted this same question to the Rules Questions forum and was kindly redirected here by Davit.
Now that I have plenty of information to direct people to as well as to print out for the sake of not misquoting anyone later on, I'll return the information to those who asked.
For future reference, if the people of our organization are going to rely on these forums to receive information, I would ask that anyone responding please at least resolve themselves to answering the questions rather than find reason to insult or personally attack someone for asking. That's what General Mayhem forums are for.
Thank you for the information supplied thus far. If I receive any further questions or concerns in regards to this subject they'll be posted here for discussion.

[Arrakis]

TL;DR.

The reason Dur-D won't be bringing back the healing rules anytime soon is because Dur-D's biggest field battles at practices last all of three minutes.

That and I never once saw Ora at the field ever during my 1.5 yrs there. Do you even still play? Why do you care if people could theoretically heal?



PS: Dagorhir still has healing rules. NO ONE EVER DOES IT. Maybe that's why they aren't around in Bel's set any more? Hmmmm?

[varadin]

LIES ARRAKIS

I saw it with my own two eyes this weekend, someone used a healing poem in a fight to heal someones leg. I though they were just talking stratagy or something. Yet again this was a res battle and id just kill myself and get the leg back that way...

[Arrakis]

CURSE YOU AND YOUR DAMNING ANECDOTE, VARADIN!

[Ora]

I inquired because as a member of Belegarth and Dur-Demarion I care and as noted in my prior post, someone else brought it to my attention and I brought it here for discussion.
Arrakis, in regards to your question which has nothing to do with the question of rules, if you or anyone else would like to continue to make this a personal issue rather than a question dealing with the Belegarth rules system then please take it to a private message just as I have. You'll find the response to your question in your in box.

[The Great Gigsby]

Okay, I'll bite.

Any effect that relies on a verbal component is difficult to regulate.

1. In a game where we can't even put our foot down and tell people not to wear obviously modern t-shirts on the field, who's going to determine what an appropriate healing poem would? Maybe if we incorporated and enforced garb check at events we could have a marshal that would determine what is and is not an appropriate poem. Would fantasy languages count?

2. For the sake of balance, you would have to limit who can be a healer. Either by restricting the equipment they can carry or by only allowing a certain number of healers on each team. People designated as healers should probably also have a visible indicator of their status like a sash or tabard.

3. You will get people who will stutter, stumble, rush, skip words, and mangle their poems just to get it out on time. I think that doing so violates the spirit of the game. Even worse, if Joe Healer does a * poor job of reading his healing poem and Jill Combatant thinks he did an alright job and gets back up on her feet then you have a scenario where cheating / fudging the rules is doubly reinforced. I realize this is an honor game, but it's a lot easier to look the other way when it comes to interpreting a poem than interpreting a javelin to the face.

4. It's unrealistic. People with severed or mangled limbs don't usually walk it off in 150 syllables. They usually die or cry for mommy. Both are acceptable and role-playable options.

[Mercer]

4. It's unrealistic. People with severed or mangled limbs don't usually walk it off in 150 syllables. They usually die or cry for mommy. Both are acceptable and role-playable options.

Realism is not a reason to disallow anything in this game. It hasn't ever been, consistently. If realism meant a *, then shields would have a weight requirement and/or different capabilities based on construction, flails would be unusable due to what it would take to make them realistic, and the Horde would have to be told to clean up because there's no such thing as monsters.

[Forkbeard]

Healers were fun(when you could fing some one willing to play one) and did not interfere with game mechanics.
I would vote to bring it back. I actually HAVE 2 people in my realm who are interested in this.
On a side note, I NEVER kill myself(Varadin). Even when wounded in a re-gen battle. It's low.
FB

[Angmarth]

Healing should not be allowed back into the book of war. You should change your local rules to adopt it if you like, but the national set should remain as it is sans healing. There isn't any good reason someone can give to include it in the book of war. The arguement of "We used to have it", doesn't hold water in my mind. With as close as our relationship is with Amtgard, I would humbly suggest that you visit one of their parks and play "wizard" or "healer" for a day. I'm serious about that, not poking fun at anyone. What makes our situation unique is that we have several options available for whatever style of game you would like for any given time. I would relate this to playing slow pitch softball, fast pitch softball or baseball. Each group has something that it brings to the table and there isn't any reason to start and blur the lines for anything other than scenarios.

[Satanaka]

I got it straight from the source- and it was "I don't like Healers." and that is fine for one person to have as an opinion- even for a whole society to have- BUT- One person made the choice.

At no point in all our history of foam fight has there been a huge number of healers. That is BS.
Prior to the split- Numenor had planned on having everyone have a "healing" poem on the inside of their shield at Ragnarok.

If you were not around before and during the split- I do enjoy your OPINION.

** BUT REMEMBER ** it is only a NATIONAL rule- you can do as you please at your realm and at your NON- National event. Just on the National level- you can't do it- they don't exist.

My opinion- I never saw it as a threat- but- I never claimed to be a sword jock THAT MUST WIN EVERY BATTLE... I thought it interesting and just another unique thing we had that added some balancing aspect. It was actually structured well and had good rules as well as limits.

I understand WHY certain people don't liek them- I just disagree and did not see it as a threat or harm. It did give an openning to other people to play and have fun. But- I am sure the NCAA would have issue with it. heheheheheheehe

[Kasada]

If I may point out, there's no reason that a poem has to be the method of healing. I'm surprised nobody has brought this up yet, but IF a realm were to want to add healing, wouldn't a more sensible way to go about it be to make them carry something extra around? I think a large bag or a box would make sense - it would take up an entire hand, restricting their weapon use, be at least a little heavy, and if someone hit it with a weapon, it would be reasonable to say that the contents were spilled, rendering it useless. It's a lot less of a stretch to add battlefield surgeons than magic healing with poems. The only issue then would be time, how long it takes to heal a limb. Healers would be easily identifiable by what they're carrying, and would be limited in combat by it, a fair trade off for being able to "set broken bones and stitch cuts in record time."

[Soo Ma Tai]

The way I remember it from my time in Dur-D was that a healer had to wear a white headband, and could only carry a single blue. Generally they were pretty easy to spot on the field. There was no healing poems on the backs of shields or any of that, at least not while I was playing.

I would support the inclusion of healing in the ruleset, as long as it included those weapons restrictions..single blue only, no shield, white headband.

[Ora]

This is the full set of rules as they were once written in the rules system. I included those that were originally in the Dur-Demarion rules system for Healers.

1] Healing - NOTE: heralds will announce healing at the beginning of the battle and identify all healers.
2] The Healer cannot heal her/himself or their own equipment.
3] To heal a person, the Healer must be in direct physical contact with the injured person through the duration of the healing poem.
4] A Healer may not heal a person while either are under direct attack.
5] A Poem of Healing must then be recited or read aloud. The minimum length of a poem of healing is 180 syllables and must be approved at weapon check-in. The poem must be memorized by the fifth day of battle practice.
6] When the healer completes his poem, all wounds and items are healed or repaired (i.e. armor,
bow, shield, etc.)
7] If the Healer or injured person is attacked or distracted, or contact is broken for any reason, the
entire Poem of Healing must be read or recited again
8] Healers may only heal one person at a time.
9]* Healers may only carry a single blue weapon.
10]* Healers may not carry a shield.
11]* Healers gain no extra protection by wearing armor.
*added from original Dur-Demarion rules

• No, the healing poem cannot be read backwards or forwards with the intention of “damaging” anyone. This is
not an aspect of Belegarth role-playing.

• No kind of “magic” other than healing is part of the Belegarth system of role-playing.

At Rag XV we allowed other people from other realms to be Healers and allowed them to carry their poems with them. HOWEVER as noted in the rules, Healers are not to carry anything other than a blue weapon, their armor doesn't count and they cannot carry a shield.

[Soo Ma Tai]

Yup, that's how I remember it.

[Arrakis]

That doesn't sound horrible. It just doesn't sound useful.

It may also reduce recruitment from certain demographics to have something perceived as "frou-frou" like magical healing in a game that's mostly just beating on one another.

[Ora]

On the flip side it may increase recruitment, giving non-combatants a chance to take the field and feel as though they're a part of the game. Just because a Healer can carry a blue weapon, doesn't necessarily mean they have to.

[Cyric]

On the flip side it may increase recruitment, giving non-combatants a chance to take the field and feel as though they're a part of the game. Just because a Healer can carry a blue weapon, doesn't necessarily mean they have to.

If a non combatant steps onto a field, they are automatically a combatant unless they are wearing a yellow tabard. That means they can be hit, stabbed, bashed, shot, grappled etc just as they were any other, unless your proposed ruleset is going to make them immune to all that, or touchkills or something.

[Arrakis]

Again, I say unto thee: Why not play Amtgard battlegames for that experience?

[Angmarth]

What Cyric said, and then some. If I know that someone can heal or help in some way my wounded opponents, I am going to make sure that they are out of the fight as quickly as possible.

Again, if you want to have healing on the field, simply make it legal in DD and move on. If other groups want to make it legal they will.

[Soo Ma Tai]

If a non combatant steps onto a field, they are automatically a combatant unless they are wearing a yellow tabard. That means they can be hit, stabbed, bashed, shot, grappled etc just as they were any other, unless your proposed ruleset is going to make them immune to all that, or touchkills or something.

Like many archers do, if they really don't want to fight, they will call themselves dead when someone with a sword gets close enough to them, I see it all the time and we don't * about that. If not, they will fight like everyone else, just with limited weapons.

* Arrakis-Because maybe there are people who like the idea of healers, without having a bunch of bean bags and ninja stars flying around.

Honestly, I would have brought this up years ago if I had noticed the rules were gone from the ruleset. I have actually been healed several times in the last few years during regular battles (at CW), and little did I know i was actually cheating, since the rules were stricken from the BoW. It simply didn't occur to me they were missing.


If Saki is correct, which I do not doubt, these rules were removed from the BoW because of one single person, without the consultation of the rest of the sport, because that person didn't like healers. I mean really, if healing was allowed back in the BoW, would it just ruin the game?? Is a little more RP going to break belegarth? I doubt it.

* Angmarth- so basically you'd treat them the same way archers are treated, as a threat? doesn't sound so bad to me.

[Ora]

In this case, non-combatants taking the field as Healers, yes they'd be subject to target by fighters just as anyone else is and they'd know it before going onto the field. In the case of a non-combatant Healer they just choose not to defend themselves against attacks, just as Soo Ma Tai stated many archers do.
I'm just completely astounded that some of you would rather suggest losing people to another game system rather than re-incorporate a way to include those people on the field. Is that a way to grow the organization?
Don't think for a minute that Healers of the past weren't accustomed to being targeted on the field. No, the idea of it doesn't shock me at all. We had fighters who would purposely hunt Healers to disadvantage the "other side", even though many Healers would heal fallen fighters from either side.

[Kyrian]

If I were going to do this, I'd change it from the concept of a magic healer to a field medic:

1) The medic must wear a white headband.
2) The medic may use any weapon/shield/armor combination that would not interfere with his medical duties.
3) The medic must have a set of minimum 1"-wide strips of white fabric approximately 30" long to simulate bandages. These strips will have the name of the healer written on them. Bandages may not be scavenged from dead fighters.
4) If the medic has lost an arm, he can't treat others.
5) When treating a limb, the medic must wrap the limb with the bandage using both hands. If anyone's seen a military field dressing, then you have an idea of what I'm going for.
6) A medic cannot have anything in his or her hands while treating a fighter. Either the medic has to put his weapons/shields on the ground or sheathe them in some way.
7) If the process is interrupted in any way that causes the medic's hands to not hold the bandage , i.e., dodges an attack, moves away from the patient, etc., then the medic must start over again.
8 ) A person can only be treated once during a battle.
9) Equipment cannot be fixed by the medic.
10) If the bandage should fall off during the remainder of the battle, then the person immediately loses the limb again (bleeding out).

[Cyric]

Archers have the benefit of having rules that protect them against being bashed and grappled.

I know a healer can always call themselves dead, but you can't do that if someone sneaks up behind you, and you can't call dead before an archer hits you. I don't want some kid to come out and think he's not going to get hit because he's a healer, even if that's been explained.

I want to do away with the notion that healers can be non combatants. There's no such thing on the field, unless you're wearing yellow.

There are many true non-combatant activities for people to do, like with the guilds, or performers. I don't think we're going to draw that many more people to an event just because we allow healing in a few scenario battles in an entire weekend of fighting, or at a practice.

Like it's been said, go ahead and put it back in the DD rules. I just don't think there would be much support for it in the BoW.

I like Kyrian's rules a bit more because it's less magic and more realistic (not that it matters) but the major problem with healers originally was after the equipment restrictions were taken away, anyone could be a healer. Numenor broke healing by taping a healing poem to the back of everyone's shield at a TN event. in a large battle, you could have anyone get injured, fall back, and come back out. That was worse than javelins getting thrown back and forth at the end of a fight.

[Kyrian]

Cyric brought up a good point about how anyone can be a medic. I'd change rule 2 to limit a medic's equipment:

2) A medic may only use/carry a single Class I weapon, two daggers, or rocks.

This would be much like the modern medics who normally only carry a pistol (or M16?) for personal defense.

[Ora]

Many of these ideas were explored and dealt with in Dur-Demarion years ago, so I'm just letting you know what worked and what didn't. As with any other rule in Belegarth, most of these were trialed and what didn't work was either changed or eliminated.

If I were going to do this, I'd change it from the concept of a magic healer to a field medic:
1) The medic must wear a white headband.

Dur-Demarion did away with the Healers wearing white headbands because it made them even more of a target than they already were. Healers were always announced and fighters would see who they were and would have to keep up with them just as they would have to keep up with which fighters are on their side and which aren't.

2) The medic may use any weapon/shield/armor combination that would not interfere with his medical duties.

Again, the idea is to limit the Healer to a single blue weapon because of the "power" they already wield. We (in this case I mean Dur-Demarion) had considered allowing a Healer to carry a shield (such as a buckler) rather than a blue weapon, but it meant they fell into the category of being kicked and/or checked. Our Healers agreed it was better just to have the blue weapon (if they chose to carry it) or simply have a paladin (someone who protected them while they were healing).

2) The medic must have a set of minimum 1"-wide strips of white fabric approximately 30" long to simulate bandages. These strips will have the name of the healer written on them. Bandages may not be scavenged from dead fighters.

This could fall into a safety issue on the field. We don't allow streamers on clothing or on weapons due to the entanglement/strangling possibility, why introduce it here?

3) If the medic has lost an arm, he can't treat others.

If they still have one good arm they should still be able to heal. It isn't the arm/hand, it's the Healer's ability/power to heal. If they lose the second arm/limb, then of course they're dead anyways.

4) When treating a limb, the medic must wrap the limb with the bandage using both hands. If anyone's seen a military field dressing, then you have an idea of what I'm going for.

This falls back into the safety issue of having 30" pieces of cloth/bandages.

5) A medic cannot have anything in his or her hands while treating a fighter. Either the medic has to put his weapons/shields on the ground or sheathe them in some way.

Single blue weapons wouldn't be much of a hindrance. If a Healer is engaged in combat their contact with the person they're healing would be broken, therefore negating the healing... and likely the healer would die anyways.

6) If the process is interrupted in any way that causes the medic's hands to not hold the bandage , i.e., dodges an attack, moves away from the patient, etc., then the medic must start over again.

Yup. If contact is broken the Healer would have to begin again.

7) A person can only be treated once during a battle.

Agreed

8 ) Equipment cannot be fixed by the medic.

I'm on the fence with this one.

9) If the bandage should fall off during the remainder of the battle, then the person immediately loses the limb again (bleeding out).

I'm thinking again of the safety issue of streamers on the field again.

Cyric brought up a good point about how anyone can be a medic. I'd change rule 2 to limit a medic's equipment:
2) A medic may only use/carry a single Class I weapon, two daggers, or rocks.
This would be much like the modern medics who normally only carry a pistol for personal defense.

When Healers were implemented in Dur-Demarion the rules/limitations were kept as simple/basic as possible, therefore the limitation of weaponry was made to a single blue sword. I guess a dagger would work, too, though. Not sure about rocks. That'd be like the medic throwing their pistol rather than firing it at an attacker

As far as the use of the word non-combatant in this situation, IMHO its a fine line. In this case I'm saying that someone one who normally wouldn't go out onto the field as a fighter (for whatever reason) would still have a way of going onto the field. Again, that person would be well aware that they'd be treated as if they were a fighter, accepting the fact they may be engaged in combat and be hit.

[The Great Gigsby]

Mercer, some historical shields are heavy. Some historical shields are really light. I agree that flails are stupid. Saying your a goblin and acting like a goblin doesn't involve any additional rules.

Actually, I'm alright with losing people over the absence of what I think is a silly, useless, and unplayable house rule. Belegarth can't be everything to everyone. It shouldn't be. That's why you have different organizations with different rules and standards. How many "non-combatant" healers are gonna stick around anyway after getting ground pounded battle after battle by healer haters?

This is Belegarth Medieval Combat Society. Not Dagorhir (which I think still has healing poems), not Darkon (which has clerics or something), not Amtgard (Healer class). The main reason I became interested in Belegarth is because there were no spells or abilities. No frivolous rules. Nothing to interpret. Just you with a stick against another dude with a stick. The day that healing as it is in Dagorhir becomes an enforceable rule is the day that I make up a new game to counteract the silliness (or join SCA).

Proponents of healing, how do you address points 1 3 and 4?

1. Who's going to determine what an appropriate healing poem would? Maybe if we incorporated and enforced garb check at events we could have a marshal that would determine what is and is not an appropriate poem. Would fantasy languages count?

3. You will get people who will stutter, stumble, rush, skip words, and mangle their poems just to get it out on time. I think that doing so violates the spirit of the game. Even worse, if Joe Healer does a * poor job of reading his healing poem and Jill Combatant thinks he did an alright job and gets back up on her feet then you have a scenario where cheating / fudging the rules is doubly reinforced. I realize this is an honor game, but it's a lot easier to look the other way when it comes to interpreting a poem than interpreting a javelin to the face.

4. It's unrealistic. People with severed or mangled limbs don't usually walk it off in 150 syllables.

Ora, I wish I could see your point of view where there's some untapped demographic of "noncombatants" who want to be healers but I just don't. Maybe I'm too much of a stick jock (ha). Maybe I'm just having too much fun doing what I do in Belegarth to care about anyone else. Maybe I want to participate in a game that attracts people with similar interests as me.

[Soo Ma Tai]

1. A healing poem can be anything, as long as it's 150 syllables long...you can even simply count to 100, so yes, any language, etc. whatever.

3. IDK on this one, Honor is honor, you've either got it or you don't. THose who do don't cheat, those who don't cheat. And heralds don't catch even half of what is happening on the field at any given moment, weather it's cheating or something else.

4. Realism was put into the 3 (p, s, r) to prevent crap like, "my sword is a lightsaber, so I can cut your armor and you in one blow, like a red sword." Otherwise all the unrealistic weapons (because they are too light), armor (which is no where thick enough and mostly unhardened) and all that should go. Along wit all other fantasy aspects of the game (like Gnolls) Healing is perfectly realistic in a fantasy setting.

"Actually, I'm alright with losing people over the absence of what I think is a silly, useless, and unplayable house rule." -This is not a house rule, it was the standard in the game. It's may be silly, but it is not useless. And how many times have you played under these particular healing rules to say it's unplayable. Now you are just throwing out paper tigers because you don't think it's a good idea. Personally I would like to see more RP and less stickjockyness in our game. When people did more RP, nightlife, feast and most of the aspects of this game including battles were a lot more fun in general. It wasn't just dressing up because you wanted to swing foam, people dressed the way they did to represent their persona (it's RP, even if you don't want to admit it). Now often times event nightlife is more like a frat party than a medieval combat event.

[Ora]

Dur-Demarion still has active healers. Healers aren't used at every battle, but they are used.

...Actually, I'm alright with losing people over the absence of what I think is a silly, useless, and unplayable house rule. Belegarth can't be everything to everyone. It shouldn't be. That's why you have different organizations with different rules and standards. How many "non-combatant" healers are gonna stick around anyway after getting ground pounded battle after battle by healer haters?
This is Belegarth Medieval Combat Society. Not Dagorhir (which I think still has healing poems), not Darkon (which has clerics or something), not Amtgard (Healer class). The main reason I became interested in Belegarth is because there were no spells or abilities. No frivolous rules. Nothing to interpret. Just you with a stick against another dude with a stick. The day that healing as it is in Dagorhir becomes an enforceable rule is the day that I make up a new game to counteract the silliness (or join SCA).

I guess this is where you and I are going to disagree, Giggles. If there is a way to incorporate people into the game without disrupting the game then we should try to keep people. But again, that's just my opinion.

Proponents of healing, how do you address points 1 3 and 4?

1. Who's going to determine what an appropriate healing poem would? Maybe if we incorporated and enforced garb check at events we could have a marshal that would determine what is and is not an appropriate poem. Would fantasy languages count?

Good question. Again, I can only base this on Dur-Demarion's implementation. Someone who wants to be a Healer has to "register" with the secretary of our realm. The "Healer in training" must submit the poem as a written record as their poem. That person then has 5 days (5 battle practices) to memorize the poem and can use a written copy until their 5th day. "Fantasy" languages are not allowed, as anyone hearing the poem has to be able to understand what is being said, even if it's spoken quickly. The recitation can be done quickly, but must still be clear enough to understand. The poem must be as "period" as possible and, in the case of Dur-Demarion, the secretary determines if the poem is "appropriate". Years ago we had a "church" (a guild, if you will) that oversaw healers and kept up with all of that and when the church disbanded the Healers were put into the hands of our secretary. Also, no two Healing poems are to be alike. A registered Healer is NOT to use the "count to 100" after their 5th battle practice as a healer. The ONLY time we (Dur-Demarion) allowed the "count to 100"-poem was at Rag XV to allow people from other realms to act as Healers on the field.

3. You will get people who will stutter, stumble, rush, skip words, and mangle their poems just to get it out on time. I think that doing so violates the spirit of the game. Even worse, if Joe Healer does a * poor job of reading his healing poem and Jill Combatant thinks he did an alright job and gets back up on her feet then you have a scenario where cheating / fudging the rules is doubly reinforced. I realize this is an honor game, but it's a lot easier to look the other way when it comes to interpreting a poem than interpreting a javelin to the face.

You're right. Everything about our game is on the honor system. With Healers you're going to have others around (namely the dead) listening and believe me, if its someone from the other side they pay A LOT of attention to make sure someone's not cheating, especially with the healing. The poem is supposed to be recited loudly and clearly enough so others around will know what's going on.

4. It's unrealistic. People with severed or mangled limbs don't usually walk it off in 150 syllables.

Nothing about our game is "realistic". In essence, we're acting... playing a medieval version of Cowboys and Indians, but rather than guns we use swords... We hit one another with foam-covered sticks, lose a limb that goes behind our back or down to the ground... fall to the ground playing dead then get back up and do it all over again... without 180 syllables.

Ora, I wish I could see your point of view where there's some untapped demographic of "noncombatants" who want to be healers but I just don't. Maybe I'm too much of a stick jock (ha). Maybe I'm just having too much fun doing what I do in Belegarth to care about anyone else. Maybe I want to participate in a game that attracts people with similar interests as me.

Giggles, if something is incorporated into the game that ultimately doesn't detract or disrupt the game why shouldn't it be allowed? It won't take away from the fact that you're hitting people (being a stick jock, if you will), it'll just give you more people to kill

[Angmarth]

The potential for healer abuse is huge. It is easy for someone to say "I was healed by a healer". One of our big rule interpretations is that if you show a wound, you have it. Now you are telling me that I will see someone wounded, and suddenly see them later unwounded in the same battle. If that is the case, why don't we just say * it and adopt Darkon's rules? The reality is this, if you put healing back in the BoW, there will be many realms that will not allow it. You will only truly be able to enforce it at ARM and possibly CW, so what is the point? Why not just keep it out and let each group decide their own variant on the subject. SIMPLICITY is the reason that we do not over complicate our current rules with things like this. It simply takes more marshals to govern this situation and puts less people on the field.

[Arrakis]

I'm just completely astounded that some of you would rather suggest losing people to another game system rather than re-incorporate a way to include those people on the field. Is that a way to grow the organization?

Woah, hold up, uhn-uh, stop.

We, Belegarth, aren't "losing people to another game system" because we aren't competing with other game systems, especially ones with very different rules, like Amtgard. We're where you come if you want to destroy others brutally in foam combat. Amtgard is where you go if you want to ditch and learn mad technique, but with no shield-and-body contacts OR play a magicky class or play a monk or heal people or whatever.

I don't WANT to grow the sport by accommodating people and adding random stuff to the rules; I want to grow the sport by drawing in people who want to do what we do: Hit other people with foam sticks. If you don't want to hit someone with foam sticks... then what the hell are you doing in Belegarth? That's kind of our thing, here.

[Satanaka]

Actually- that is new- Our original Bylaws were : Belegarth Medieval Society. That way we were open to many other things and aspects and NOT limited to just "combat" as well as it help in the "public oppinion" as for the "Combat" part. This helped us in schools, college and public parks.
That IS Belegarth's Foundation- just changed in recent years with the new bylaws.


For 20 plus years Healers worked fine- Not a threat. IF you played with it you'd understand. It's is a lot like an Archer that doesn't want the hard core combat- with heavy restrictions- which are cool. My post are more of a historical recall.



Giggles: "...This is Belegarth Medieval Combat Society...."

[Angmarth]

Even IF you are right Saki on the original name, that is NOT what it is today in name or spirit. I take pride that our group does not have those sort of extras. Again, IF you want to do those things, visit your local Amtgard or NERO chapter and go to town. Cross gaming will give you a great experience and broaden your horizons. There are things that I would like to borrow/steal from Amtgard, but a magic system of ANY kind isn't one of them.

[Derian]

Sorry, Satanaka, you're mistaken. Here's a snapshot of belegarth.com from January 24th, 2003:

http://web.archive.org/web/200301240929 ... garth.com/

Or, we can go back to the first time 'Belegarth' was on the website, before we had even started using belegarth.com, back in the foamfighting.org days. February 3rd, 2002:

http://web.archive.org/web/200202032023 ... hting.org/

That's about as early as it gets for Belegarth as the split happened in the latter half of 2001. Belegarth has always had 'Medieval Combat Society' as part of its name.

[bo1]

I can uderstand why the question was brought up, but i fail to see the purpose.

Ora, i have a few questions, or anyone that supports healers. Ora i am not picking on you but i think you are the only one beside Saki that has a positive opinion about the concept of healers. Certainly yours is the strongest for healers in this thread.

1. how would healers increase our membership? i cannot for the life of me figure out how that is going to be the goose that lays the golden egg. Yes there might be 25 people that join the sport and think it is great to be a healer. but there are going to be 100 current members that hate it, dont make me make a list, but most HH, Hydra, rogues, and triad are going to be against this. That is easily 100 right there.

2. How is the reason for removal in the first place become invalid? the people that made the rules had a goal, in what way did they make a mistake?

3. WHy would we want to complicaite the working rules as they are today? this clearly would be complicatied to introduce, and inforcement would be hard as well. Heralds already have a difficult job, when i herald i am constantly trying to run a good game with calling out cheaters and late shots, or getting someone take an archers call.

just some quick questions i had. I think it could work, but i fail to see the significance. i would do it at arm if it meant that 400 people would show up, we would need 50 from tennessee, and 50 from out west.

i think if it were inacted that having a no shield rule would be manditory. cna you imagine everyone as a healer and with a shield. all the KoN, as healers, would be even more difficult to chop through. in the end if you want to get hit and keep fighting we have a process for you, it is called armor, and you dont need help to use it.

[Soo Ma Tai]

If we add healing back into Bel, I don't believe it will increase membership. I do feel it would increase participation by those who already attend events, but almost never go on the field for whatever reason. It certain would not bring all the wallflowers out onto the field, but it would bring out a few more peeps that didn't or rarely fought before.

As stated by me before, I would be for putting the rules back in, but that would be up to my realm as far as the voting goes.

[Cyric]

I think healer battles would end up like bridge battles. A few people would be happy about them, but a lot more would go sit down during them because they don't like it for whatever reason. If your end reason for healers is to get more people on the field, then you may be going about it the wrong way.

[Satanaka]

Sorry Derian- you are mistaken- I help write them and I know what was voted in. I was at/ in the War Council Meeting. Maybe who ever made the website made a mistake. I also remember the conversation of why we removed it and how it helped us and served us. I also think I could pull up copies- if you REALLY want me to. Remember- Arm 1 was in 2002- right?

So- there is the Truth. Sorry. It may not be what some jocks want to hear- BUT - it is true. If you think about it- seems like we had better insight and broader goals back then.


maybe the web person was a bit un-informed as to the Bylaws. Derian- can you find a copy of the original Bylaws?

Sorry, Satanaka, you're mistaken. Here's a snapshot of belegarth.com from January 24th, 2003:
http://web.archive.org/web/200301240929 ... garth.com/
Or, we can go back to the first time 'Belegarth' was on the website, before we had even started using belegarth.com, back in the foamfighting.org days. February 3rd, 2002:

That's about as early as it gets for Belegarth as the split happened in the latter half of 2001. Belegarth has always had 'Medieval Combat Society' as part of its name.

[Derian]

IIRC, the bylaws weren't actually posted online until sometime around 2005/2006. It's possible that the Madog or Jikanta screwed up, but I only ever remember hearing 'Belegarth Medieval Combat Society'.