No Healers in Belegarth?

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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Satanaka » Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:51 am

That was the original setup- BUT after some actual very good debate and talks- when going over and tweeking the last draft and voting on- it was changed to: Belegarth Medieval Society- So that we would have better reception in certain venues without the word: "combat" as well as NOT limiting ourselfs to just one aspect.

Wonder if that was even thought about this last time we re-wrote the Bylaws?

I am not sure that he Bylaws were even posted back then- else we would have a copy.

Also- thanks Derian- I wastrying I did not sound rude with this information. Thanks. (Yes- I have been trying for the last year to get better at posting)



Derian wrote:IIRC, the bylaws weren't actually posted online until sometime around 2005/2006. It's possible that the Madog or Jikanta screwed up, but I only ever remember hearing 'Belegarth Medieval Combat Society'.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Arrakis » Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:45 am

Belegarth Medieval Society doesn't even make sense grammatically. That's like saying "Belegarth Modern Society" It doesn't mean anything. Belegarth Medieval Combat Society means something. Similarly, Belegarth Medieval Recreation Society would work. But just BMS? Sounds dumb.

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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:57 am

There wouldn't be "Healer Battle" Cyric. All battle would allow for the use of healers under these rules. It could be capture the flag, castle, bridge, whatever. If it were to be different, it would have to be specifically a "no healers" scenario of some kind. If added back into the BoW it would be a standard, not something for specific scenarios.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Elebrim » Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:57 pm

bo1 wrote:1. how would healers increase our membership? i cannot for the life of me figure out how that is going to be the goose that lays the golden egg. Yes there might be 25 people that join the sport and think it is great to be a healer. but there are going to be 100 current members that hate it, dont make me make a list, but most HH, Hydra, rogues, and triad are going to be against this. That is easily 100 right there.

If they hate it, they don't have to do it. Just like there are dozens - perhaps hundreds - of people who despise archers and think it is stupid to fight at range instead of brawling up close. Or, just like many people think flails are the ultimate cheese and swear to never use them. It would have a place in the balance, even if it isn't widespread or widely popular.
2. How is the reason for removal in the first place become invalid? the people that made the rules had a goal, in what way did they make a mistake?

If we are to believe those with the memories long enough to remember the split and the original edition of the Belegarth Medieval Society bylaws, the healing rules were removed in the later revisions simply because one person or a small group of people didn't like them. If only one individual made sure that the change was made, then the change was the mistake - not the original version in which healing was still included. If the rules' removal it had been openly handled, then it would be legitimate, but apparently it was not.
3. WHy would we want to complicaite the working rules as they are today? this clearly would be complicatied to introduce, and inforcement would be hard as well. Heralds already have a difficult job, when i herald i am constantly trying to run a good game with calling out cheaters and late shots, or getting someone take an archers call.

It would be no more complicated to introduce than every other aspect of the game. Come up with the rules we want to use and add them to the BoW. People with experience with healing would help teach others via this handy tool called the internet how to implement it, and could answer questions when confusion arises. After a few events, bam! integration is complete.

Enforceability would be just like dealing with rhino-hiders or bad archer calls. If healers are cutting syllables for time or doing something else illegal, players would alert a herald and the heralds could better watch for a repeat offense. We both know the difficulty of catching cheaters even half of the time, so I'm not sure that unenforcability is a viable argument against healing.
just some quick questions i had. I think it could work, but i fail to see the significance. i would do it at arm if it meant that 400 people would show up, we would need 50 from tennessee, and 50 from out west.

Octoberfest, IMO, would also be a good testing ground if Numenor would be up for it. It was bigger than Armageddon.
i think if it were inacted that having a no shield rule would be manditory. cna you imagine everyone as a healer and with a shield. all the KoN, as healers, would be even more difficult to chop through. in the end if you want to get hit and keep fighting we have a process for you, it is called armor, and you dont need help to use it.

I don't think that healers with shields would be as invincible as everyone thinks. If the healing is done "by the book," both hands must be in contact with the target in order to be successful. Active defense is almost a guaranteed loss of hand contact, and the target remains wounded/dead. If hand contact is maintained, the healer is almost guaranteed to die without allied defenders helping. Which means that a shield-carrying healer is functionally removing themselves from the fight, two people out until the healing is complete. It's a high-risk/high-gain scenario.

The biggest factor is time. Person A goes down, person B falls back to heal them. Person B has 150 syllables out of combat, in which both hands must be in contact with dead person A (read: undefended), which if interrupted for any reason must be restarted. According to Wikipedia (brilliant source, I know), the smallest possible length of time for beats of sound to be separately understood is 450 milliseconds (ms). Given that physical limitation, it is mathematically impossible for anyone to speak a clearly discernible 150-syllable poem faster than 67500 ms, or 67.5 seconds. Given the risk that some people will rush, 60 seconds may be a more round target number.

That's a full minute out of combat and unprotected, and we all know that a LOT can happen in one minute. Even the KoN, to cite the example everyone else is using, wouldn't be game-breaking by having healing.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Rasheab » Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:57 am

1.
5) A Poem of Healing must then be recited or read aloud. The minimum length of a poem of healing is 180 syllables and must be approved at weapon check-in. The poem must be memorized by the fifth day of battle practice.

Would all healers at events be allowed to carry a copy of their healing poem? And if a poem is disallowed, are they allowed to use a backup poem? If someone's primary poem is disallowed, are they allowed to carry a copy of their backup?

2.
7) If the Healer or injured person is attacked or distracted, or contact is broken for any reason, the entire Poem of Healing must be read or recited again

What does this precisely mean? Is "attacked" an attack that connects, or simply one that hits their shield/garb/foot on ground (or armor)? And does "distracted" mean they fumble or pause significantly in their delivery?

3. In the original rules, it doesn't say that both hands must be on the person being healed. (This ties in with question #2.) Would that be a requirement?

4. Is there going to be an equipment restriction on healers? (Since Ora's rules list such restrictions.)

5. Do you believe this will be a benefit to recruitment, versus people who potentially will turn away because of "magic." This is a serious question, regarding our target demographic.

6. Just a question I personally would like to know: how did people miss that this rule was removed? How long ago did it disappear?

And I like many of Kyrian's suggestions. I would personally prefer someone carrying a pouch and having to wrap a 'bandage' around the wounded person's limb (I just prefer physical reps to "magic"). Also I think the healers should be marked out somehow, whether that is a headband, sash, or something else. Armor needs to be visually identifiable (weapons of course are), so it might be a good idea for a special ability like healing to also be. If the healer had to carry and apply 'bandages,' then this wouldn't be as important.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Satanaka » Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:29 am

I think the bases for the poem was: it took about 2 minutes to say- you had to have one hand on the person being healed- contact could not be broken or the poem could not be disrupted else the healing was cancellled. I like the weapons limitation- as well as you could only be healed once.

Of course- it ran on the 'honor' system- just like our hit taking.


as far as how BMS sounded- come on Arrakis- your post are almost always better than that. Where is the mathimatical reasonning and logic? :devil: (this means I was trying to be funny)

again- back then- using the word "combat" was not as inviting at the college level for groups want to set up Belegarth as a club and such as well as the way some local parks responded.

That DOES make sense- right?
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Loptr » Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:38 am

*edit* to remove content that can only spark useless troll responses.


I for one like the idea of healer as the "original" write up reads. But I will hit peeps regardless. Concern over cheating concerns me. Are we soo full of rabid assed cheaters that it is going to be a real issue?

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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Kharn » Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:13 am

*removed because what I quoted was removed as I was typing*

On the subject of healing, I am very much against it. Even coming to an agreement on rules governing the use of healing on the field seems like it would be a long argued battle. If it comes down to a poem with X requirements, someone will eventually pen a verse that can be easily memorized as well as recited quickly and clearly, and that poem will become nearly the only one used. This still allows for disagreements about people not enunciating properly, skipping words, etc.

Hell, even if you do away with the poem and make it based on time, you haven't changed anything, unless you have a herald with a stopwatch adjudicating the healing. How many heralds would you need for a national field battle now, 20?

I think the crux of the discussion is, What good could battlefield healing bring to Belegarth, and would this good outweigh any potential backlash.

If someone could put forth positive points about the return of healing and and then support those points with well founded arguments backed up by some evidence, I would set aside my personal dislike for healing and even go so far as to volunteer to help review and revise the rules and arrange for playtesting, because ultimately, the good of Belegarth is what is important.

Until that happens, I highly doubt that healing will really go anywhere.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Satanaka » Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:22 am

I agree that it will NEVER be in Belagarth (at least as far as BOW).

It is good to know the history as well as be familiar- so that if you visit another realm or event that does it- you know what is going on.

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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Forkbeard » Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:34 am

Karn, who asked you? You sound like this is all up to you.
Loptr, no, I don't think cheating would be a problem.
I don't see why this couldn't be passed back into the book of war. It's not like realms that don't want healers could just not use the healing rules. Ther are times when we call no missles. Or certain battles where only blue weapons are used.
My realm wants this, I imagine several others do to.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Loptr » Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:10 pm

Forkbeard wrote:My realm wants this, I imagine several others do to.
FB


The west was behind the curve for stabby tips maybe we can be ahead of the curve on healing.
I will talk to Magnus for the SLC realm if we ever actually start up.

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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Satanaka » Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:25 pm

I do not mean to sound like a 'negative nancy' or any type of 'nancy'- this will not pass.

But- maybe we can encourage a few battles in the future at some event.


Good post- well- some. Interesting read.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Ora » Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:01 pm

With the autonomy Belegarth is supposed to provide for individual realms, NO realm would be required to have Healers just as NO realm is required to follow every rule written in the BoW. The rules within the BoW are required ONLY at NATIONAL events. The RE-inclusion of the rules for Healers in the BoW would merely provide the rules to ALL realms wishing to incorporate Healers into their realm's rules. Having the rules available in such a way insures that whenever inter-realm events take place and Healers are allowed into battles that all Healers as well as Fighters are familiar with the rules at play.

No, it WOULD NOT be allowed for KoN to walk onto the field, fully armed and armored for battle and carrying a copy of their Healing Poem taped to the back of their shields. The main purpose for Healers is to go onto the field to Heal, not to kill, that's why there are strict rules on minimal arms they can carry (ie, blue weapons, no shields) only as defensive weapons in case they are attacked while healing.

As far as an "easy" poem being incorporated, apparently some people here have not read my previous posts clearly. I'll reiterated:
Each Healer would have to write their OWN poem. No two poems are to be the same.
Poems are to be RECITED clearly and loudly enough so others around them will know what's taking place. The ONLY Healers allowed to carry a printed version of their poem are those who are still within the 5 day "learning" time they have. After the 5 day learning time ALL Healers are to have their poems memorized.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby bo1 » Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:18 pm

thanks for the response Ora. You sold your point very well to me atleast.

I mainly posted about arm as a half joke to make more people come to arm.

i can still see alot of abuse with letting fully armored and fully equipped fighters be healers. perhaps i have a mistaken concern, but play testing would certainly answer all the questions one could have.

in the end i think it could be viable to add to the bow, but play testing should start now for it to make it on the books for 2012.

just my .02, good debate all the same.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Rasheab » Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:22 pm

Ora wrote:The ONLY Healers allowed to carry a printed version of their poem are those who are still within the 5 day "learning" time they have. After the 5 day learning time ALL Healers are to have their poems memorized.

And in inter-realm events, how do you propose to enforce that? Additionally, as previously asked, if someone's primary poem is disallowed, are they allowed a backup poem (just as fighters have backup weapons), and can they carry a physical copy of that with them (since they hardly, if ever, use it)?

And why does it matter if the poem is "easy?" I wrote it, I'm reciting it. Not everyone is an acting major. So long as it takes the appropriate amount of time, and isn't completely inane, the poem shouldn't matter. As everyone has noted, this is a honor sport. Cheaters will cheat, everyone else won't. What passes as a poem shouldn't be unneccesarily subjective.

I think someone already mentioned this, but another advantage of using "bandages" would be for the sake of Herald's sanity. It's hard enough to keep track of stuff as is; having phys reps for heralds to see might be a good idea.

Also "blue only" is silly. Why can a healer carry a 47" sword, but not a dagger?
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Ora » Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:37 pm

Rasheab wrote:1) And in inter-realm events, how do you propose to enforce that? 2) Additionally, as previously asked, if someone's primary poem is disallowed, are they allowed a backup poem (just as fighters have backup weapons), and 3) can they carry a physical copy of that with them (since they hardly, if ever, use it)?
1)Just as we did at Rag XV, Healers would have to register at Troll at events where Healers may be implemented. Other than that everyone is on their HONOR just as with any other part of the game.
2) If a poem is 'disallowed' then the Healer would have to rewrite it or write a new one.
3) NO. Healers WOULD NOT be allowed to carry a copy of their healing poem onto the field. Healers are to RECITE FROM MEMORY. Of course they can keep a physical copy of their own poem to study and refresh their memory, just NOT carry it onto the field when they're healing.
Rasheab wrote:And why does it matter if the poem is "easy?" I wrote it, I'm reciting it. Not everyone is an acting major. So long as it takes the appropriate amount of time, and isn't completely inane, the poem shouldn't matter. As everyone has noted, this is a honor sport. Cheaters will cheat, everyone else won't. What passes as a poem shouldn't be unneccesarily subjective.
"Easy", in this case, is perhaps a misused word. What's easy for one person may not be for another. The poem should be about healing, should be non-repetitive, should be period and should original to each individual Healer.
Rasheab wrote:I think someone already mentioned this, but another advantage of using "bandages" would be for the sake of Herald's sanity. It's hard enough to keep track of stuff as is; having phys reps for heralds to see might be a good idea.
Streamers/Bandages on the field is a bad idea all around. We don't allow them on weapons or clothing for the reason of entanglement or strangulation risk, they shouldn't be allowed to be "tied" onto someone being healed.
Rasheab wrote:Also "blue only" is silly. Why can a healer carry a 47" sword, but not a dagger?
I see nothing wrong with a dagger, but nothing more than a blue sword. I think this was already covered somewhere.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Angmarth » Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:07 pm

If we are going to go this route, let's just adopt Darkon's ruleset and then we can disallow what we want on the local level. That way when someone wants to put another "magic" style of play in the game we already have the mechanics for it.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Rasheab » Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:10 pm

1) And in inter-realm events, how do you propose to enforce that? 2) Additionally, as previously asked, if someone's primary poem is disallowed, are they allowed a backup poem (just as fighters have backup weapons), and 3) can they carry a physical copy of that with them (since they hardly, if ever, use it)?[/

Don't misquote. The question (before you added your #'s) was IF an individual's poem is disallowed, can they use a backup poem, and are they allowed to carry a copy of the NEW poem with them. Your answer appears to be:

Yes (they can submit another poem if their 1st poem is disallowed)

BUT, you have not answered the second part of the question. Let me restate it. A healer has 5 days to learn their poem, correct? During that 5 day period, they can carry a physical copy of their poem. Correct? SO, if someone's primary poem is disallowed, and they have to submit a NEW/different poem, can they carry a copy of THAT poem, since they have not had 5 days to memorize that specific poem?

Or, another way: do you have 5 days to memorize a specific given poem, or are you only allowed 5 days EVER, and you're out of luck unless you happen to have two poems memorized.

If the answer is only 5 days ever, that seems pretty harsh. Not everyone is a performance major. Having two poems memorized "just in case" seems pretty demanding.

Edit: I might have misread. I'm double checking.
Added: Ok, I think I see where a misunderstanding is.

5] A Poem of Healing must then be recited or read aloud. The minimum length of a poem of healing is 180 syllables and must be approved at weapon check-in. The poem must be memorized by the fifth day of battle practice.

3) NO. Healers WOULD NOT be allowed to carry a copy of their healing poem onto the field. Healers are to RECITE FROM MEMORY. Of course they can keep a physical copy of their own poem to study and refresh their memory, just NOT carry it onto the field when they're healing.

Ok. So if a healer is not allowed to carry a physical copy of their poem on the field, even during their first 5 days, what is the point of the 5 day period?

Streamers/Bandages on the field is a bad idea all around. We don't allow them on weapons or clothing for the reason of entanglement or strangulation risk, they shouldn't be allowed to be "tied" onto someone being healed.

It is my understanding that "streamers" are only disallowed if they are an entangling hazard. I'm not sure how you apply bandages/wraps, but I generally don't leave huge long sections hanging off. If the bandage is properly applied (which would be the point), entangling would not be an issue.

I see nothing wrong with a dagger, but nothing more than a blue sword. I think this was already covered somewhere.

If it was, I missed it. According to your posted rules, they would not be able to carry a short spear, a dagger, or a sword with stabbing tip. While this isn't a big deal (it will get hashed out later), it is worth mentioning.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Kharn » Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:03 pm

Ora wrote:
Rasheab wrote:I think someone already mentioned this, but another advantage of using "bandages" would be for the sake of Herald's sanity. It's hard enough to keep track of stuff as is; having phys reps for heralds to see might be a good idea.
Streamers/Bandages on the field is a bad idea all around. We don't allow them on weapons or clothing for the reason of entanglement or strangulation risk, they shouldn't be allowed to be "tied" onto someone being healed.


I see no mention of streamers or anything similar in the rules governing garb. I think Kyrian's suggestion for a field medic is a brilliant compromise and is also much more reasonable to implement. I'll quote it from the previous page here with a few revisions that I think would help.

Kyrian wrote:1) The medic must wear a white headband.


I agree with the principle, although maybe not that specific implementation. The medic should generally be about as distinguishable from other fighters as an archer is when they aren't actually in the process of arching.

Kyrian wrote:2) The medic may use any weapon/shield/armor combination that would not interfere with his medical duties.


This is important. I would argue that medics would not be allowed to wear armor of any kind. The rules for bandages would make it common sense to drop everything you are carrying to ensure that you get the bandage secured both quickly and securely, so I wouldn't see any restriction on weaponry as being necessary.

Kyrian wrote:3) The medic must have a set of minimum 1"-wide strips of white fabric approximately 30" long to simulate bandages. These strips will have the name of the healer written on them. Bandages may not be scavenged from dead fighters.


I would say the bandages should be wider, to make them a little more durable, as well as more encumbering on the patient and a little more difficult for the medic to cut off circulation. Perhaps 2-4 inches wide, 30-36 inches long, with the name of the ownerclearly written on them.

Kyrian wrote:4) If the medic has lost an arm, he can't treat others.
5) When treating a limb, the medic must wrap the limb with the bandage using both hands. If anyone's seen a military field dressing, then you have an idea of what I'm going for.
6) A medic cannot have anything in his or her hands while treating a fighter. Either the medic has to put his weapons/shields on the ground or sheathe them in some way.


We allow people to shoot bows with one hand, unless I missed that being banned. In this situation, the effectiveness of the medic is severely compromised. They can either take forever trying to fasten a secure bandage with one arm, or they can do it quickly and the bandage doesn't hold very long. I think that the bandage itself balances these concerns.

Kyrian wrote:7) If the process is interrupted in any way that causes the medic's hands to not hold the bandage , i.e., dodges an attack, moves away from the patient, etc., then the medic must start over again.


I think this one should be all or nothing. Either being interrupted has no effect on the bandaging, it permanently renders the wound unable to be bandaged or it complicates the wound and kills the patient. I would lean towards no effect just for the sake of simplicity.

Kyrian wrote:8 ) A person can only be treated once during a battle.
9) Equipment cannot be fixed by the medic.


I can add nothing to this.

Kyrian wrote:10) If the bandage should fall off during the remainder of the battle, then the person immediately loses the limb again (bleeding out).


I would raise the stakes to death if a bandage falls off. This would both encourage the medic to do a proper job, as well as add some consideration on the part of potential patients; do they really want to risk death to get the limb back? While the answer is usually going to be yes, it at least makes it a consideration compared to zero risk situation of simply losing the limb again.

Other things that pop to mind would be a limit on bandages carried per battle, dunno if that was mentioned before, but 5 seems like a reasonable number. Having them restricted to 5 per owner per battle, regardless of who is using them, also places at least some limit on how many medics would go out, while people who ordinarily wear no armor would have no drawback to carrying bandages with them, not being able to just grab from some guy's pile of 40 would slow that down.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:23 pm

I must say i like Kyrian's Combat Medic better than "magic" but the results are the same to me.

Also Ora, I know many people who have tassles, streamers and warbraids both on weapons and garb. It is not against the rules.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Arrakis » Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:32 pm

Ora wrote:
Rasheab wrote:And why does it matter if the poem is "easy?" I wrote it, I'm reciting it. Not everyone is an acting major. So long as it takes the appropriate amount of time, and isn't completely inane, the poem shouldn't matter. As everyone has noted, this is a honor sport. Cheaters will cheat, everyone else won't. What passes as a poem shouldn't be unneccesarily subjective.
"Easy", in this case, is perhaps a misused word. What's easy for one person may not be for another. The poem should be about healing, should be non-repetitive, should be period and should original to each individual Healer.
Rasheab wrote:I think someone already mentioned this, but another advantage of using "bandages" would be for the sake of Herald's sanity. It's hard enough to keep track of stuff as is; having phys reps for heralds to see might be a good idea.
Streamers/Bandages on the field is a bad idea all around. We don't allow them on weapons or clothing for the reason of entanglement or strangulation risk, they shouldn't be allowed to be "tied" onto someone being healed.


Points:

What is "Period" in a poem? Doesn't that mean it has to be in Middle or Old English, Middle or Old French, Breton, Latin, Middle Farsi...? Are you just trying to keep out words like, "X-Box", "Pwnzor", or "spaceship"?

There are no official restrictions on streamers, dangly bits, or whatever. As a herald, it's going to be WAY easier for people to cheat and me not catch it without some sort of physical representation of healing.



Also, I pride Belegarth on being one of VERY few medieval recreation sports that DOESN'T restrict your ability to use equipment, so long as you can use it effectively. The only restriction we have is on number of shields a person can use, and that's uniform. I am steadfastly against ANYTHING that would introduce restrictions on equipment carried or used on the field. That instantly makes us LARPier. That is Bad.

If people want to use Healer rules for some special battles or whatever and have anyone who wants to play a healer have to chant for some number of seconds or whatever, fine. But don't try to codify them and make it so that any old * can come onto the field and heal when the rest of the field would rather they **** off.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Ora » Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:36 pm

There is no point nit-picking this particular word “period” to death. IMO as long as the poem is particular to the game (as in not some modern-day lyric to a modern-day song) it should suffice.

If a person submits a poem and it is accepted to be used on the field, there would be no reason to have a back-up. The person wouldn’t be allowed onto the field with a poem – written or memorized – unless it was approved. If a person decides they no longer like their particular poem then they’d have to submit a new poem (to whomever is to keep up with such documents). In such a particular case I believe it would be the realm’s decision of whether or not to allow the person to carry their new poem for five days of battle practice or not.
Rasheab wrote: Ok. So if a healer is not allowed to carry a physical copy of their poem on the field, even during their first 5 days, what is the point of the 5 day period?
This was quite clear in the original post with the rules for Healers.
...To become a Healer you must submit a typed or legible handwritten copy of your Poem of Healing to the secretary/treasurer. After doing so, you have total of 5 days of battle practice to learn to recite your Poem of Healing. Until then, you may carry a copy of the Poem with you onto the field, or you may simply count to one hundred. After your five days of practice you will be expected to know your Poem by memory and will be expected to recite it to the secretary/treasurer. If you stumble over words, or forget several words or lines of your Poem, you may be asked to take more time to learn the Poem and will not be made a Healer...
Maybe a scenario will help:
Rasheab submits his 180 syllable poem. Rasheab’s poem is accepted as a healing poem for Rasheab to use on the field. Rasheab may then enter the field as a Healer carrying his poem with him for up to five days of battle practice. At any point in those 5 days of battle practice Rasheab already has his poem memorized and no longer wishes to carry his poem from which to read then GREAT! BUT after five days of battle practice Rasheab would be expected to have his poem memorized and would not be allowed to carry the poem with him onto the field anymore.

As far as the bandages/streamers, we already have rules in place for weapons and other “devices” due to entanglement/strangulation factors and those were hashed out years ago.
Here are the rules that came into play because of those dangers:
1.4.5.2. The maximum chain/hinge length is six (6) inches.
1.4.5.4. The hinged part of the flail must be padded with foam to keep the chain from easily entangling a Weapon or body part. No more than 1 ½ inches of chain may be exposed.
1.5. Prohibited Weapons:
1.5.1. Entangling Weapons (nets, lassos).
The restriction against 30" "bandages" was a foresight to discussion and argument over these entanglement/strangulation hazards.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Kharn » Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:19 pm

So, in the hypothetical situation where the field medic was being playtested in a realm, you believe that the bandage props should be governed by the rules for weapons? If anything, the closest parallel in use would be the flag props used in CTF variations, which, like all props, seem to have no rules governing their construction or use, barring the common sense of those involved.

Obviously, if the medic idea were to go forward, a fair amount of thought would have to be dedicated into working out the regulations for bandage props, but trying to dismiss the idea out of hand because of a non-existent connection to entangling weapons is just outright absurd.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Elebrim » Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:45 pm

We could compromise and say that all poems to be used at inter-realm events MUST be memorized, except at the express permission of the head herald. Allows for random "Whoops, my poem failed" scenarios while still forcing people to memorize. Unless the head herald disgraced themselves and broke the game by allowing too many people to read instead of recite, there wouldn't be any problems.

Arrakis wrote:Also, I pride Belegarth on being one of VERY few medieval recreation sports that DOESN'T restrict your ability to use equipment, so long as you can use it effectively. The only restriction we have is on number of shields a person can use, and that's uniform. I am steadfastly against ANYTHING that would introduce restrictions on equipment carried or used on the field. That instantly makes us LARPier. That is Bad.


I agree to an extent. Again, it is physically impossible to recite a 150-syllable poem clearly and discernibly faster than 67.5 seconds. Over a full minute of non-active participation in combat. If we mark the healers with white headbands or armbands, we should be in the clear for equipment unless I'm missing something. Also, non-combat healers will still have a role in helping drag the dead back to heal them, as heavily-armed healers will still be filling the lines.

If people want to use Healer rules for some special battles or whatever and have anyone who wants to play a healer have to chant for some number of seconds or whatever, fine. But don't try to codify them and make it so that any old * can come onto the field and heal when the rest of the field would rather they **** off.


Elitist much? Remember that the whole reason this discussion happened was because the rules for healers were spontaneously de-codified. You can always say "Hey, at our field we don't use healing rules" and Ka-bam! your problem is fixed. But if they aren't codified, they aren't widely known, and if they aren't widely known then people won't know they can actually use them. A lot of people never knew that healers once existed in Bel, and even if you don't like it they stand a lot to gain by having more options available to them in the ruleset.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Forkbeard » Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:31 pm

Oh my god, Angmarth! You cut me deep. Nice one.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby The Great Gigsby » Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:19 pm

I know some of you crossgame at Amtgard - verbal spells are a pain to regulate, aren't they? The ones who can enunciate a simple spell like "I call for your death, I call for your death, I call for your death, I call for your death, I call for your death" clearly and understandably without moving their feet or holding a weapon in their casting hand are the exception.

You're fighting, you're getting **** thrown at you, your adrenaline is pumping, you're probably a little dehydrated, and the only thing you care about at that moment is making sure that the person you're casting that spell at dies whether or not you speak it clearly or are stationary or aren't switching your weapon to an empty hand. In my experience (Amtgard in the PNW), this is the norm. People suck at following the rules (in their defense, Amtgard can get rules-heavy). Healing is the absolute worst. The Amtgard healing chant is about 115 sylables long. Many healers pride themselves in rattling it off in 30 seconds or less.

The same thing happens in Belegarth (or a ditch, or any combat sport). You're exhausted, * off, and just about to light up some weasely archer when you get hit in the shoulder. You blow it off and call it an arm and then proceed to ream the archer.

Say you're fighting in a tourney. You take a late shot to the arm, but register it as a hit. After the fight, the marshal tells you to do it again since the shot you took was late. How many people would want to redo the match to get another shot at winning? How many people would follow the "spirit of the game" and concede?

Now intead of fighting in a tournament, what is the average Joe Blow in belegarth gonna do when a healer crouches next to him, blunders through their favorite dragonforce song and then says "Okay, your healed, get back up." Is Joe going to say "Sorry, man, you missed a few sylables and are therefore breaking the rules, I'm not actually healed."

No.

He'll look to see if anyone else was paying attention and get back up on his feet. I did it all the time in Amtgard. I've done while playing DnD. I've done it when playing poker. If people can get away bending or outright breaking the rules, they will. Don't lie to yourself. This is what people will do. A lot.

This is a combat sport. Most participants like to fight. It's already bad enough when there are a dozen archers or griefer nerds that "just want to be different" and fight with a dagger or nothing but rocks (you know the ones that will never fight you one on one, they'll just run away and stab you in the back). Healers will just add to that stupidity.

Who's going to be a healer? People who don't want to engage in combat. People who "want to be different." People who will try to min/max it and give their unit or team an edge. I'm alright with not having those people on the field.

Practically speaking, the rules don't need an extra page and a half of rules to cover healing. The outlined rules for healing are so mind-bendingly subjective I don't know how they could ever be anything but a pet rule for someone who either wants to be a healer, or wants their girlfriend to fight but doesn't want to see her get her nose broken.

i would do it at arm if it meant that 400 people would show up, we would need 50 from tennessee, and 50 from out west.
Armageddon is on my schedule this year, but there's no way I'm flying there if it's going to be a testing ground for healers.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Elebrim » Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:39 pm

Giggles: So you admit to having cheated before, and then basically argue that because of people like you who do cheat, adding healing back in is a bad idea?

That is horrible logic to use to discredit healing.

No system is perfect, but the game is predicated on the idea that we are all doing our best to try and honor the rules to the best of our ability. So do we nix an idea because of those who would abuse a rule? No, or else we wouldn't play this game at all. Your argument is just plain wrong.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Kharn » Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:02 pm

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. My opinion is that, after accounting for safety, the rules are constructed in a way that makes them very easy to abide by, and easy to enforce if someone chooses not to abide by them. The healing rules, as being talked about presently, do not fit into that paradigm. My opinion differing from your opinion does not mean that your argument is just plain wrong.

Elebrim wrote:Giggles: So you admit to having cheated before, and then basically argue that because of people like you who do cheat, adding healing back in is a bad idea?


It is, however, kind of pathetic to call someone a cheater and intentionally misrepresent his argument in an attempt to dismiss it, especially when his argument is generally well founded, with several very relevant points.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Loptr » Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:56 pm

Giggles wrote: I know some of you crossgame at Amtgard - verbal spells are a pain to regulate, aren't they?

One of the main reasons I play Bel too.

Giggles wrote: He'll look to see if anyone else was paying attention and get back up on his feet. I did it all the time in Amtgard. I've done while playing DnD. I've done it when playing poker. If people can get away bending or outright breaking the rules, they will. Don't lie to yourself. This is what people will do. A lot.

Giggles I met you at Chaos and I respect you. I find this a most unfortunate statement and experience. My Amt park does not provide the same environment
.
Cheating is strictly a matter of ones personal honor. You either have it or you dont. I do my damndest to hold myself to that code. The cheaters tend to be come pretty obvious, there seem to be ways to deal with it.

At the end of the day its a **** game. I would hope we dont have to cheat at a game to feel good about ourselves.

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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Elebrim » Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:23 am

Kharn wrote:It is, however, kind of pathetic to call someone a cheater and intentionally misrepresent his argument in an attempt to dismiss it, especially when his argument is generally well founded, with several very relevant points.


I didn't call Giggles a cheater. He himself said he has cheated in the past, ergo calling himself a cheater, and used that as the launching point for the rest of his argument. I never said that those points are not relevant to the discussion, but that the method of reaching them was faulty logic: he is creating a straw man by focusing on abuse potential as a reason against healing. Every rule can be abused in just as blatant or more blatant ways. It's a bad standard to judge by, and I think I can safely say that such a tactic of argument is therefore, in fact, wrong for this conversation.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Kharn » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:22 am

Have you taken and passed a college level logic course? If not, you really should, it's one of those classes that makes you a little better at tons of things.

If you have, here's an entry level refresher.

...now Wireless Joe Jackson, there was a blern hitting machine...

Yeah man, when I was a teenager I had a helluva time getting away from blow

He'll look to see if anyone else was paying attention and get back up on his feet. I did it all the time in Amtgard.

Notice that all of those statements are in the past tense. From these statements, I can draw a logically consistent conclusion about the past. Subject 1 was a robot constructed to hit blerns, Subject 2 did cocaine as a teenager, Subject 3 violated Amtgard rules.

These statements do not contain sufficient information to draw logically consistent conclusions about the present. In the time that has elapsed since the time referenced in these statements, Subject 1 could have been made into paperweights, Subject 2 could have kicked his cocaine habit, and Subject 3 could have stopped violating Amtgard rules.

Have you discovered your failed logic yet?

Elebrim wrote:He himself said he has cheated in the past, ergo calling himself a cheater.


Your argument is logically inconsistent unless you honestly consider everyone in the sport to be a cheater. Your argument unequivocally states that anyone who has ever cheated is a cheater, and by any logically consistent definition of 'cheating', there is no one in the sport who hasn't cheated at least once.

Elebrim wrote:He himself said he has cheated in the past, ergo calling himself a cheater, and used that as the launching point for the rest of his argument.


I am quite certain that if it were the launching point of the rest of his argument it would have been near the very beginning of his post, as opposed to being generally near the end.

Elebrim wrote:he is creating a straw man by focusing on abuse potential as a reason against healing.


This is also part of what makes me question your understanding of logic, since that is not even mildly similar to what a straw man fallacy is. For your sake, here is a definition of a straw man fallacy, courtesy of the back corner of my closet shelf.

A Concise Introduction to Logic, Ninth Edition wrote:The straw man fallacy is committed when an arguer distorts an opponent's argument for the purpose of more easily attacking it, demolishes the distorted argument, and then concludes that the opponent's real argument has been demolished.


I am going to sum up Giggles argument as follows: I am against bringing back healing because I feel it is too wide open for abuse.

I fail to see how that is distorting or destroying anyone's argument, rather he is expressing a dissenting opinion and providing support for it. What you're doing to his argument is, ironically, similar to a straw man fallacy, but I think it's actually an ad hominem, or maybe a mix of the two. For your edification:

A Concise Introduction to Logic, Ninth Edition wrote:Argumentum ad Hominem
This fallacy always involves two arguers. One of them advances (either directly or implicitly) a certain argument, and the other then responds by directing his or her attention not to the first person's argument but to the first person himself. When this occurs, the second person is said to commit an argument against the person.


So by focusing on Giggles, instead of on his argument, and by calling him a cheater, you are committing an ad hominem attack. Additionally, since you are also misrepresenting his argument and declaring it invalid, you are committing a straw man fallacy yourself.


Elebrim wrote:Every rule can be abused in just as blatant or more blatant ways. It's a bad standard to judge by, and I think I can safely say that such a tactic of argument is therefore, in fact, wrong for this conversation.


Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I am led to conclude from this statement that you have never done any significant amount of creation, playtesting, or adjudication of rulesets. If you had, you would know that potential for abuse is always a valid concern when creating anything inside any kind of competitive ruleset.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Forkbeard » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:33 am

ohmygodohmygodohmygod.
You guys are lame.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Angmarth » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:34 am

Giggles is right and Kharn's post made me chuckle.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Elebrim » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:43 am

The discourse on logic is hijacking the thread. I will send you a PM.

To move on, I don't think that cheating potential is a fair reason to disallow something. It can be a valid concern, but as Giggles pointed out everyone makes mistakes with the rules. Whether or not people either consistently or knowingly exploit those same areas is what separates mistakes from cheating, and there is no way to realistically determine how much of a problem that could be without some play testing.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Arrakis » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:57 am

<NOT NEWS>

Elebrim remains wrong, as usual, about everything.

</NOT NEWS>
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Dane » Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:15 pm

I'm going to go ahead and echo Angmarth...because...you know...he's right.
Ora wrote:No, it WOULD NOT be allowed for KoN to walk onto the field, fully armed and armored for battle and carrying a copy of their Healing Poem taped to the back of their shields. The main purpose for Healers is to go onto the field to Heal, not to kill, that's why there are strict rules on minimal arms they can carry (ie, blue weapons, no shields) only as defensive weapons in case they are attacked while healing.

If we do this, we're relegating people to combat roles based on allowed equipment and "special abilities." That's a class system, and that's not our game. That's a facet of Amtgard's game. That's Nero's game. That's Darkon's game.

If we're trying to create a role for people who don't like to fight but want to impact the battlefield, those folks are going to be sorely disappointed at Oktoberfest when they get blind-side shanked in the kidney like an archer that calls bad shots.

Instead of saying, "Here's a national rule that we have to play by at Armageddon and Chaos Wars," when the majority of fighters will hate the rule, realms that want to have healers at their own non-national events can have them. They can post the rules for them here on the boards in the appropriate thread, and people can read them to prepare for those events. They can have healers at their home practices. Joy.

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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby The Great Gigsby » Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:36 pm

Elebrim, I'm actually one of the "honorable" dudes in Amtgard who will not acknowledge a verbal ability (beneficial or harmful) if it isn't executed right. I do that, not because it's the norm (in my experience) but because I believe strongly in the spirit of the game. Also, I like the english language and prefer words to be understandable. My home Amtgard park was actually pretty good about this. My experience at events is a completely different story. I plan to go to an Amtgard event this month; maybe things have changed since my last event a couple years ago.

I posit that similarly, while Dur Demarion may have great house rules for healing that work well for them because they're familiar with most of the people that show up and know their names and tendencies, doesn't translate the same on the event scale.

Elebrim wrote:the game is predicated on the idea that we are all doing our best to try and honor the rules to the best of our ability.
This is BS in my opinion. A person's honor should be the very last determination in whether or not a hit or a hypothetical healing poem is spoken correctly. It should be a last resort. I don't trust the judgment of any yokel on the field that I don't know (people I do know get a little more leniency). That's why you swing until they call dead or stop moving. That's why many people swing with sufficient force to make sure shots are communicated. It's not about abuse potential, It's about damage control and keeping the game fair. My main opposition to healing poems is not about people making mistakes, it's about people making a lot of mistakes frequently.

Elebrim wrote:because of people like you who do cheat, adding healing back in is a bad idea?
I was actually calling you a cheater, but I'm such an honorable guy that I took the bullet for you. :roll: What I was trying to communicate is that everyone "cheats" every once in awhile. It's just that some things are easier to blow off than others. That's why I used the late shot scenario. It happens frequently on the field, people take late shots they shouldn't. Sometimes people call a shoulder as an arm.

Kharn pretty much said it better than I could.
-Giggles

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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Elebrim » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:15 pm

Giggles: Ok, point taken. That explanation makes a lot more sense to me than "because people cheat, we shouldn't do this." And I didn't mean to make it personal, either; you were throwing yourself under the bus for the sake of your argument.

Just because people can make mistakes, or cheat, does not mean that we should dumb down the rules to cater to the lowest common denominator. We can cater ourselves to that by making sure the dead stay down, but that is behavioral and not legislative. I disagree with writing (or not writing) rules to cater to the lowest common denominator.

People are expected to take their hits; it is written into the rules. That is how the game works, by trusting people to fundamentally do the right thing by the rules. Heralds can't see everything. If we can't have a fundamental level of trust in the system, then NO aspect of the game works.


Dane: Good point. There could be other ways to regulate it apart from creating a new "class" in the game.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Kegg » Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:04 pm

History on the Belegarth Book of War.

Every change and the final document adopted were approved by the Belegarth War Council. Healing has never been part of an adopted (voted on) Book of War.

Several items were proposed for change when the Book of War was compiled.

1.) Eliminate healers.
2.) Add 30 degree arrow/javelin deflection.
3.) Change length of red weapons.
4.) Allow leather to grapple leather.
5.) No reusable missile weapons.
6.) All weapons have same damage (no pierce versus hack).
7.) Eliminate bashing (allow only checking)

Some were passed. Some were rejected. Two alternate versions of each rule were prepared. Each was voted on individually. The vote against healers was either 10-1 or 9-2. At the time of adoption, a simple majority was required to pass things.

Was I a vocal critic of healing? Yes.
Was healing already outlawed in the Numenor rules? Yes.
Did I unilaterally remove healing from the game? Obviously no. If I had that authority, we wouldn't have reusable missiles in the rules (I was much more passionate about that - lost the vote 5-6). Healing was unpopular amongst the War Council members when the rules were adopted. That is why healing never made it into the Book of War.

I think healing is a fun idea for a given scenario. As a base part of the game I think it is silly. 150 syllables is something like counting to 77. I can accomplish that in about 25 seconds. The Dagorhir healing rules are particularly silly (healing armor, bows, shields), with no armor or weapon limitations. That is what was considered at the compilation of the Book of War. That was what was voted decisively down.
Freedom of discussion, unaided by power, is sufficient for the propagation and protection of truth. It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself. - Thomas Jefferson
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby The Great Gigsby » Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:12 pm

Thanks for the history lesson, Kegg. I'm curious, do you happen to know how the votes settled for all the other items? I'm particularly interested in number 6.
Kegg wrote:6.) All weapons have same damage (no pierce versus hack).


[EDIT]Because I apparently can't read.
Last edited by The Great Gigsby on Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
-Giggles

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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Rasheab » Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:17 pm

Ditto. Thank you Kegg.
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There are no staffs in Belegarth. Because of how they are constructed, they are really Pugil Sticks.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Satanaka » Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:38 am

Hmmmmm........
How many things have you wanted changed- that got changed? say 75%? :devil:

"... the Keggery is strong in this one..." :goblin:

Not picking on Greg- just poking a little fun. :frog:



Kegg wrote:Was I a vocal critic of healing? Yes.
Was healing already outlawed in the Numenor rules? Yes.
Did I unilaterally remove healing from the game? ..............I .
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Kegg » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:02 am

2.) Add 30 degree arrow/javelin deflection.

The Dagorhir rule of any deflection is stupid. Any deflection at all. Called by archer. Bah. 11-0.

3.) Change length of red weapons.

36" clubs or axes being red was also silly. Overall length 48" for red weapons. 10-1


4.) Allow leather to grapple leather.

Another Numenor rule. A bit contentious. 8-3 in favor.


5.) No reusable missile weapons.

This went 5-6 against. I think if I pushed it I could have convinced at least one War Council representative to switch their vote, but knew that they wouldn't have consulted their realm first. Even though the initial rules only took 1/2 vote, I didn't want to push such a major rule change on such a tenuous vote.


6.) All weapons have same damage (no pierce versus hack).

I actually REALLY wanted this one. It would have made the game MUCH simpler and I believe better. I still think it is the one thing that we could change that would just IMPROVE the game. Unfortunately only 2 other realms thought it was a good idea. 3-8 against.


7.) Eliminate bashing (allow only checking)

Numenor allows hard checks. It doesn't allow bashes. The crazy run as hard as you can bashes are dangerous. Most marshals actually get angry when big guys absolutely crush smaller or rather defenseless people. BUT... enough people thought that the idea of unlimited bashing was too important to get rid of. 4-7 against.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Satanaka » Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:55 pm

Kegg- Thanks- good info BUT where did you have all this information? and how did the Bylaws from 2002-2004 get lost???


I see your points on those. I like some and dislike only a few.

Good info. Thanks Greg.
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Re: No Healers in Belegarth?

Postby Kegg » Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:43 pm

I had a marked up copy of the original draft rules with notes marked all over it. While I was digging through a pile of waivers last year I found it. It either got dropped in a box of old waivers or pitched. I also asked Galin, who was representing Avalon at War Council what his recollection was before posting this information.

As far as by-laws go, that is not my thing. Somewhere on one of the hundreds of backup CDROMs and hard drives sitting around my office or house, I probably have a backup copy. It really doesn't matter though since War Council approved our current by-laws by a hefty margin and is currently in force. If I ever find the 2002 version, I will post it for historical interest. It's doubtful that I will ever find it. I think in 15 years of making backup hard drives, I have looked for (and found) an old file like once or twice.
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