1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Topics For Experienced Members

Moderator: Belegarth: Forum Moderators

1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Mekoot Rowan » Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:38 am

This post originates from a discussion on the Armor Forum which can be found here: http://board.belegarth.com/viewtopic.php?f=107&t=34031

The main thing in question seems to be whether or not the 1/2 inch spacing laid out in the BoW 3.7.1 should be construed to imply that no armor may have a gap of more than 1/2 inch.

3.7. Composite Armor
3.7.1. Studded, scaled, or brigandine Armor can only be counted as Armor if 2/3 of the target area is covered by metal or leather, or the studs/rings/plates are no more than 1/2 inch apart.


It is my belief that it is a commonly held opinion in our sport that this rule applies to all armor.

This seems to mean one of two things: (1)that a shot thrown at that spot would pass to the area beneath or (2) that the armor would itself be invalid.

Of course this would affect the way we expect people to play their armor, giving them something to keep track or on the field that I'm not sure is possible even with the greatest good faith effort, and put an extra burden on weapon checkers having to pull out the cloth tape to check suspicious gaps then determin whether they are 7/16 or a 1/2 inch (does the gap change when the person moves?).

How is this being played out right now? Do we want to clarify the rules?
Murder Tundra Horde
Spike wrote:This is the funniest thing I've ever read on these boards and the rest of you are bad at things generally, too.

Tiberius Claudius wrote:I don't get cosplay. It's like a weekend-long Halloween in a hotel where everyone gets the herp, but there's no candy.
User avatar
Mekoot Rowan
Hero
Hero
 
Posts: 1459
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2003 3:13 pm
Location: God's Country
Started Fighting: 15 Oct 2001
Realm: Frozen North
Unit: Murder Tundra Horde
Favorite Fighting Styles: Southern Praying Mantis

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Forkbeard » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:56 pm

Second verse, same as the first.
The half inch rule does aply to everything. Anywhere you have a gap in armour that is more than a half inch that gets hit, you should take it.
When I get hit in the armpit or the inside of the elbow, I take it. When I get stabed in those places I take it. Hell, I take it If I get hit in the gap between my helmet and base of my neck. I put a buckle btween the two parts of my torso so I would stop getting the pesky gap that got me killed there.
If I had chain under my leather I wouldn't have to take those. But that would be a little over the top.
What ecactly is so hard to understand here? Eyeslots 1/2" or LESS would be proof against arrows. Eyeslots MORE than 1/2" would not. I'm pretty sure everyone I know dies when shot in the eye of the helmet. It doesn't happen that often. You just have to slightly turn your head to take it on the side.
FB
Warlord of the Western Uruk-Hai

Don't call it a comeback
I been here for years
Rockin my peers and puttin suckas in fear
User avatar
Forkbeard
Grizzled Veteran
Grizzled Veteran
 
Posts: 5604
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:46 pm
Location: Kung Foo Island
Started Fighting: 15 Jun 2000
Realm: Aquilonia
Unit: Western Uruk Hai
Favorite Fighting Styles: Just the Tip

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Isk » Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:52 pm

Fork, I agree that the 1/2" and the 2/3 rules should apply to all armor and from what I've seen that's how it gets applied. That is not what the rules say right now, so it would be worthwhile to revise the rules.
http://www.antirdearg.com
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.
-- Sigmund Freud, General Introduction to Psychoanalysis

I don't have hobbies, I'm just developing a robust post-apocalyptic survival skillset.
User avatar
Isk
Berserker
Berserker
 
Posts: 874
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:06 pm
Location: St. George, Utah
Realm: An Tir Dearg
Unit: Deshi
Favorite Fighting Styles: Foam Coated Death

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Poo » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:25 pm

I was taught that armor covers only what it covers. The only rules change i could see would be that addition. If you go by that, there doesn't need to be any measurement. If it hits armor, its blocked; if it hits you, its not. Simple.
Insanity at it's finest
Fire starter
Riot maker
Moon stricken
Animal in need
Bad seed
Untamable
Beast
User avatar
Poo
Skull Crusher
Skull Crusher
 
Posts: 1228
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:11 pm
Started Fighting: 0-10-2008
Realm: Forodwaith
Unit: Hellhammer
Favorite Fighting Styles: Spear.

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Isk » Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:03 pm

Just taking what is covered makes sense and is obviously the intention. Armor doesn't protect what isn't covered. These two rules attempt to limit cheesing armor rules with barely passing armor and as the rules are currently written they only apply to composite armors.

The 1/2 inch rule should also apply to straight leather armor. If it has been layered to make it meet minimum thickness the layers should never be an overly thin single layer for more than a 1/2". I have seen leather brig for sale at renn fairs that would fail on this requirement. The 1/2" rule is not as applicable to all metal armors since it doesn't work to layer lighter metal, but I suppose someone might try to make ridiculously large diameter chain mail.

The 2/3 coverage rule should probably apply to all armors or none, IMO. It defines a level of coverage that is necessary for the armor to be counted as protecting that target area. Again, this seems to be in place to keep from having people cheese the rules by just putting very small chunks of protective "armor" on parts of their body where they get hit often and lose no flexibility. If you can't do this with composite, you shouldn't be able to do it with straight leather or metal either. Although requiring 1/3 seems more reasonable than requiring 2/3, to me.
http://www.antirdearg.com
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.
-- Sigmund Freud, General Introduction to Psychoanalysis

I don't have hobbies, I'm just developing a robust post-apocalyptic survival skillset.
User avatar
Isk
Berserker
Berserker
 
Posts: 874
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:06 pm
Location: St. George, Utah
Realm: An Tir Dearg
Unit: Deshi
Favorite Fighting Styles: Foam Coated Death

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Big King Jimmy » Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:48 am

3.3.2. Armor only protects areas covered.

That's the "armor only covers what it covers" rule.

Now, as far as the 1/2 inch rule, it only applies to the armor mentioned. There is no "all armor can't have a 1/2 inch gap" rule, think about it. Your wearing some lorica, you stretch, it might form a gap, that doesn't make it failing armor, now if you're stretching on the field (weirdo) and you stretch and someone places a well aimed shot in the gap, then 3.3.2 kick in and you're a dead man.

The 1/2" rule is to stop someone from calling a torso of suade with a single stud on it armor. It gives you a standard of how much of the armor must be covered by something that would actually confer protection.

Now, it's a little vague. I mean, if it's covered in washers (fairly common for "studded") common sense says that those washers should extended to the edge, we know * when we see it.

But since no one is arguing that aspect of the rule, I digress, the rule only covers armor that constitutes adding something to a backing that is not armor itself.
King of Dunharrow
Commander of Clan of the Hydra
Biggy Biggy J
Rather Large James
James of Enviable Girth
Jimmington
User avatar
Big King Jimmy
Grizzled Veteran
Grizzled Veteran
 
Posts: 5474
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:26 pm
Location: Elgin, IL (Dunharrow)
Started Fighting: 0- 5-2001
Realm: Dunharrow
Unit: Clan of the Hydra
Favorite Fighting Styles: Bat and Board, Archery, Spear

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Arrakis » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:11 am

Jimmo, I think the issue is:

I walk onto the field in a lorica. Someone throws a shot and hits me in a gap in my lorica made by one of my straps being too loose and me bending across the try to super-high-cross him. It hits a gap ~3/4" wide with a 1.5" wide sword blade. I call armor. Good call? No. Legal call? Maybe.

That's a stretch of a scenario, of course, but what about making solid metal armor with 1" holes all over it? You aren't gonna get a shot to my skin under that with a 1.5" wide foam sword blade, if I'm wearing a gambeson under the metal, but I should clearly not be trying to pass off this cheese-grater as armor.

Actually, I guess you could fail that for finger entrapment. Never mind! Metal armor with gaps >0.5" and smaller than would obviously invoke 3.3.2 autofails on finger-catching.
User avatar
Arrakis
Warning: Knows Math
 
Posts: 4784
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:24 pm
Location: Central Jersey
Started Fighting: 17 Jun 2007
Realm: Crystal Groves
Unit: Omega
Favorite Fighting Styles: No gimmicks.
Pronouns: He/Him

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Isk » Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:13 pm

No, the 1/2" rule should also apply to straight leather armors since they can be built up from thinner layers and are subject to the same sort of cheesing that a composite armor is subject to. We don't allow metal armors to be built up. So, it's 20ga or it fails. The example this started from is a cage to protect someone's eyes, though. The rods are thicker than 20ga and steel, but they are more than 1/2" apart. Is it armor? I say it's not. Just like Arrakis' cheese grater armor, it should fail.

The 2/3 coverage rule should apply to everything or nothing. Why does only composite have to cover 2/3 of the target area, but I could have a 3" 20ga bracelet that is legal protection on my forearm?

As far as taking hits when the armor separates in motion, I agree you should take them, but if the foam is wider than the gap you won't be able to tell unless you were looking at where it hit. In which case, you probably deserve to be dead.
http://www.antirdearg.com
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.
-- Sigmund Freud, General Introduction to Psychoanalysis

I don't have hobbies, I'm just developing a robust post-apocalyptic survival skillset.
User avatar
Isk
Berserker
Berserker
 
Posts: 874
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:06 pm
Location: St. George, Utah
Realm: An Tir Dearg
Unit: Deshi
Favorite Fighting Styles: Foam Coated Death

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Big King Jimmy » Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:26 pm

You're saying a lot of things, but you're missing rules that sort of invalidate your arguments.

Isk wrote:No, the 1/2" rule should also apply to straight leather armors since they can be built up from thinner layers and are subject to the same sort of cheesing that a composite armor is subject to. We don't allow metal armors to be built up. So, it's 20ga or it fails. The example this started from is a cage to protect someone's eyes, though. The rods are thicker than 20ga and steel, but they are more than 1/2" apart. Is it armor? I say it's not. Just like Arrakis' cheese grater armor, it should fail.


Not sure, should probably rules over that before I reply but I'm not, I'll come back to it tomorrow probably after I've really thought it over.


Isk wrote:The 2/3 coverage rule should apply to everything or nothing. Why does only composite have to cover 2/3 of the target area, but I could have a 3" 20ga bracelet that is legal protection on my forearm?


It's not.

3.3.3. Armor must be of a size to cover a significant portion (approximately one-third) of a Target Area. Armor extending continuously from another Target Area is not required to significantly cover neighboring Target Areas to count as Armor.

Again, that's under combat not armor checking.

And for the record, because I get argued on this one every once and awhile, that's why my arm cannon counts as body armor on my shoulder.

And this makes total sense, the 2/3 rule shouldn't apply because we would be outlawing grieves and bracers, which cover half of the target area at best.
King of Dunharrow
Commander of Clan of the Hydra
Biggy Biggy J
Rather Large James
James of Enviable Girth
Jimmington
User avatar
Big King Jimmy
Grizzled Veteran
Grizzled Veteran
 
Posts: 5474
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:26 pm
Location: Elgin, IL (Dunharrow)
Started Fighting: 0- 5-2001
Realm: Dunharrow
Unit: Clan of the Hydra
Favorite Fighting Styles: Bat and Board, Archery, Spear

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Isk » Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:37 pm

Thank you, Jimmy. I remembered the 1/3 rule, but looked all through the armor section and couldn't find it. That was bothering me since I totally agree with that requirement (not 2/3) for armor coverage. Why require 2/3 for composite armors, though?
http://www.antirdearg.com
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.
-- Sigmund Freud, General Introduction to Psychoanalysis

I don't have hobbies, I'm just developing a robust post-apocalyptic survival skillset.
User avatar
Isk
Berserker
Berserker
 
Posts: 874
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:06 pm
Location: St. George, Utah
Realm: An Tir Dearg
Unit: Deshi
Favorite Fighting Styles: Foam Coated Death

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Big King Jimmy » Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:42 pm

Read the rule again, 2/3 is not a requirement. There's a key "or" in there. Which, btw, is the real way to cheese composite armor.
King of Dunharrow
Commander of Clan of the Hydra
Biggy Biggy J
Rather Large James
James of Enviable Girth
Jimmington
User avatar
Big King Jimmy
Grizzled Veteran
Grizzled Veteran
 
Posts: 5474
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:26 pm
Location: Elgin, IL (Dunharrow)
Started Fighting: 0- 5-2001
Realm: Dunharrow
Unit: Clan of the Hydra
Favorite Fighting Styles: Bat and Board, Archery, Spear

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Isk » Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:48 pm

Wow. I had swapped that 'or' for an 'and'. That really does make some nice options for cheesing it. So, a leather tunic, 2/3 of which has washers on it is all armor. Hmmm. Or pocket brig which covers 2/3 of the target area with leather is legal regardless of gap size?
http://www.antirdearg.com
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.
-- Sigmund Freud, General Introduction to Psychoanalysis

I don't have hobbies, I'm just developing a robust post-apocalyptic survival skillset.
User avatar
Isk
Berserker
Berserker
 
Posts: 874
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:06 pm
Location: St. George, Utah
Realm: An Tir Dearg
Unit: Deshi
Favorite Fighting Styles: Foam Coated Death

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Arrakis » Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:50 pm

I feel like we can just precedent the whole thing as "a designed gap of >0.5" is is a break in the protection of the armor and hits to that area should not be taken as hits to the armor, but to the underlying target area."

That flies with 3.3.2 AND prevents the sort of abuses Isk mentioned above and other stuff, like metal-plates-on-leather brig that leaves 1" gaps between plates, yet calls the whole thing armor.
User avatar
Arrakis
Warning: Knows Math
 
Posts: 4784
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:24 pm
Location: Central Jersey
Started Fighting: 17 Jun 2007
Realm: Crystal Groves
Unit: Omega
Favorite Fighting Styles: No gimmicks.
Pronouns: He/Him

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Freyson » Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:42 pm

I was just reading through these posts and had a great response until I noticed what the big issue/* is in the actual rules. Armor is passed by the piece. That piece covers what is covers. If someone gets hit and that hit touches anything which is not part of the armor piece, the hit needs to be taken. The issue/* is that by the armor checking rules, a piece of armor can have a rather large area of what would not really be armor but which by the rules is. It is the pesky “or” in ap3.7.1..
Consider these:
A front torso piece of armor made out of thin, non-armor grade leather backing with a 14g metal piece on top of it which extends from the shoulders to the navel. Since the metal and leather are connected, this is one single piece of armor. The metal covers more than 2/3rd of the area, so the entire piece is considered armor. By the rules, a hit to the below the navel which still hits the leather would have hit the armor. Very much crap but still legal by the rules.

A full torso front and back piece of suede with armor grade plates ¼ inch apart covering the entire front, torso shoulder area, and down to below the shoulder blades. The area from the shoulder blades down is just suede. This is STILL one piece of armor with 2/3rd of the armor covered by the rules, yet the kidney shot to the suede is ALSO armor. Again... stupid.

A full suit of standard 14g 4-in-1 3/8”diameter chain-mail that someone cunningly took out every other row and replaced with thread. Less than ½ inch gap between armor grade metal and ½ the weight. Still armor, still crap.

Unfortunately, this thread points out that what should be and what is cannot be solved short of a rules change. One way to make sure that all of the above examples would NOT pass is to change 3.7.1 from 'or' to 'and'. Regardless, if the weapon hits the armor piece and nothing else it is taken by the armor. If the weapon hits a gap between pieces such as along the side of lorica with a loose strap the hit should be taken to the torso.
User avatar
Freyson
Barbarian
Barbarian
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2003 5:53 pm
Location: Dothan, AL

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Forkbeard » Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:51 pm

I would not count hits to the base material of my armor, if I wore crappy armor like that. The cloth or thin leather that protrudes out from under armor plates is not armor, so it shouldn't count.
People who would argue that it should count are braking the rule about taking advatage of the loose wording of the rules.
:fingers:
FB
Warlord of the Western Uruk-Hai

Don't call it a comeback
I been here for years
Rockin my peers and puttin suckas in fear
User avatar
Forkbeard
Grizzled Veteran
Grizzled Veteran
 
Posts: 5604
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:46 pm
Location: Kung Foo Island
Started Fighting: 15 Jun 2000
Realm: Aquilonia
Unit: Western Uruk Hai
Favorite Fighting Styles: Just the Tip

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Slagar » Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:48 am

The easiest way to deal with anybody who'd make and use armor like this is to hit them twice. Seriously, it's one extra hit. This isn't Amtgard, you don't need to drum-roll through six points of armor. Most rules-cheesers don't do it because they're great fighters, they do it because they really need that extra hit. Don't make armor that way if it bugs you, and just smoke people who do.

Also, as has been said earlier, change the 'or' to an 'and', and all of these problems disappear. Hell, War Council might even pass that one.
Numenorean expatriate
Gaffi Stick of the Sand Plains
Retainer to Squire Trogdor
User avatar
Slagar
Slayer
Slayer
 
Posts: 1177
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:24 pm
Location: Champaign, IL
Started Fighting: 18 Oct 2006
Realm: Numenor
Unit: The Amyr
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and Board

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Mekoot Rowan » Sat Feb 06, 2010 5:36 am

I think Slagar has it right. Pretty much all the examples being used here would be nullified if we changed that single coordinating conjunction (or to and).

War Council seems to have been fixing alot of wording recently, why not once more?
Murder Tundra Horde
Spike wrote:This is the funniest thing I've ever read on these boards and the rest of you are bad at things generally, too.

Tiberius Claudius wrote:I don't get cosplay. It's like a weekend-long Halloween in a hotel where everyone gets the herp, but there's no candy.
User avatar
Mekoot Rowan
Hero
Hero
 
Posts: 1459
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2003 3:13 pm
Location: God's Country
Started Fighting: 15 Oct 2001
Realm: Frozen North
Unit: Murder Tundra Horde
Favorite Fighting Styles: Southern Praying Mantis

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Arrakis » Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:54 am

Uh oh. Cross posted from a thought I had on the Dag boards, relevant here:

The Rule:
3.7.1. Studded, scaled, or brigandine Armor can only be counted as Armor if 2/3 of the target area is covered by metal or leather, or the studs/rings/plates are no more than 1/2 inch apart.

The problems...

Arrakis wrote:Not trying to pick on you here, Thrush; it was merely your armor that made me think of this.

ThrushSvartehjertet wrote:Image



So, when the rules say:

5.3.2 - Studded, scaled, or brigandine armor can only be counted as armor if 2/3 of the leather is covered by metal, or the studs/rings/plates are no more than 1/2" apart.

don't they mean "the studs/rings/plates are no more than 1/2" apart at most"? The other option is that they mean "the studs/rings/plates are no more than 1/2" apart at at least one point", and I don't think that's what we want it to mean.

I'm saying: The edges of the washers in that picture in the horizontal and vertical directions may be as close as 1/2", but, diagonally, there are (mathematically, for 1" diameter washers with exactly .5" edge-to-edge spacing horizontally and vertically) going to be gaps of 1.21" between washer edges. Do those holes not violate the rule, in spirit, if not by letter?

If not, would you opine that 2" square plates, rotated 90 degrees to be regular diamonds and then aligned in a similar grid pattern so that the points of the diamonds are only .5" apart, but there are gaps of 2.7"x2.7" in between them diagonally is legal armor by these rules?

I will mock up images later if anyone expresses undue confusion regarding what I'm talking about. Just let me know.




Oznog wrote:Actually, I hate to break it to you:

5.3.2 - Studded, scaled, or brigandine armor can only be counted as armor if 2/3 of the leather is covered by metal, or the studs/rings/plates are no more than 1/2" apart.

Look at what the wording actually says. If you have only two studs on a piece, as long as they're less than 1/2" apart it satisfies the wording. You'd think you're looking at sentence specifying the maximum size of a spot which isn't covered by a stud, but no, that's not what the sentence says. In fact any size gap is allowable, as long as the studs which ARE there are only 1/2" apart. So if you wanna Beadazzle a dragon in the middle and leave no studs for the rest of the armor, technically, that's "legal", but to place a single stud AWAY from the main dragon without a line of studs connecting it is not.

It is pointless to dissect what this rule literally means for square vs offset or any unusual pattern, because you're reading something different than the rule actually says. The next thing you're gonna try to think through is "ok, maybe it means 'must be within 1/2" of at least 3 neighboring studs". Doesn't fix anything. Putting 3 studs in the middle, less than 1/2" apart, satisfies it. The rule actually says any stud placed on the armor must be 1/2" from another, but doesn't address coverage at all.

What you're probably thinking it means is:
1. Studs are supposed to be in a square rows 1/2" apart horizontally and vertically. But that doesn't encompass offset patterns (which is more common) and the rule doesn't say this. In fact there's no way to develop this idea into a coherent sentence to address anything BUT square patterns.
2. You can't place a 1/2"x1/2" square block anywhere on the armor without touching a stud. THIS addresses coverage, but there are geometric oddities in the way a square block works and what it allows. Do you let the player turn the square to the orientation which makes it hit a stud to pass it, or that if any orientation exists where it can be places without touching a stud then it's legal? For a square pattern, the first idea allows 0.5"+stud diameter row spacing, but the second idea requires 0.35355"+diameter spacing.
3. You say that you can't place a N-inch diameter CIRCLE anywhere on the armor without landing on a stud. In fact, when you say a 1/2"x1/2" can't be places in any orientation without landing on a stud, you're effectively saying a 0.707" dia circle cannot be found free of studs (think about it!). This actually makes much more sense since it doesn't have orientation questions and has fewer oddities in how it reacts to different geometries.

For a 1/2"x1/2" square pattern of zero-diameter studs, that would be saying a 0.707" dia circle can't be placed, or 576 studs/sq ft. Note that for the 0.5" dia circle and a square stud pattern, the rows and columns must be 0.35355" apart- which is probably "a bit much".

For an offset pattern with a 0.707" dia circle, they'd be 0.612" apart horizontally and the next row needs to be 0.459" apart, or 513 studs/sq ft.
For the 0.5" dia circle, they'd be 0.433" apart horizontally, and the next row needs to be 0.375" apart.

None of this actually has a lot of meaning for studs, since 1) it doesn't adjust well for actual area covered by metal. For 1" metal disks, their number required per sq ft is indeed lowered, but a "negligible diameter" stud like a rivet gives almost no metal coverage anyways. And 2) studs aren't functional armor anything. This argument has more logic when talking about spacing between rings, since those have some chance of stopping a weapon.




Arrakis wrote:Oznog, you are correct. I've done some math to check what the diameter:spacing ratios need to be for gridded row configurations of metal disks on thin leather, to see what the rule as I feel it was intended to read would permit.


For a configuration of non-staggered horizontal rows of disks to pass the "must cover 2/3 of the area" qualification, it must satisfy the equation:

s/d = sqrt(5*pi/8)-1 =~ 0.401

So, for .5" spacing, you'd need 1.25" or larger disks. For 1" spacing, you'd need 2.5+" disks. For 1" disks, you'd need .4" spacing or less.


For a configuration of non-staggered horizontal rows of disks to pass the "no more than 1/2"" qualification, it must satisfy the equation:

s = 0.353553*sqrt((0.5+d)^2)- 0.5*d

That means, that for 1.25" disks, the spacing has to be essentially zero. That's the maximum disk size for non-negative spacings. For 1" disks, 0.030" spacing. For .5" disks, 0.1" spacing. For .25" round-head studs, 0.14" spacing.


I can show anyone who's interested the math.




Oznog wrote:You know, you're right! I never thought about the disadvantages that leaves large disks in a square pattern. In an offset pattern, it wouldn't have as much of a problem but square...

It's still arguable that leaving a 0.5" dia hole between large disks or rings is not up to a basic quality standard. You could go offset, add a smaller ring/stud in between (kind of neat pattern there), or go with a larger clearance circle on the rules. Personally I think a 0.5" circle is pretty extreme. A 1" circle is still 0.707" spacing of a square pattern of small studs and 288 studs/sq ft. After all, the inside of a ring itself will probably be larger than 0.5", leading to a problem where you'd jam your regulation 0.5" wooden dowel inside a ring and fail it for not covering the inside.





Arrakis wrote:Image

That's an example of plates spaced within .5" horizontally and vertically that should, by all rights, fail as armor, for those of you who weren't gettin' it, if there were any of you.





Kyrax wrote:I agree with you that the diagram shows something that clearly doesn't meet the intent of the rule. So what's the solution?





Arrakis wrote:Either what I posted above ("Whatever the checkers think is armory enough that particular day," which would probably reduce min-maxing...) or

5.3.2 - Composite Armor: Studded, scaled, or "brigandine" armors will only be considered to be Armor where the metal plates, scales, or studs have gaps no larger than a penny (~.75") between them at any point. Any gaps larger than that will be considered breaks in the protection of the armor and strikes to those areas should be counted as though they had struck bare skin.


That's easy and takes care of everything. Now, all .5" spacing square grid patterns of square plates will pass (the corner gaps are less than .75"), so that's nice for people building to the spirit of the old rule. Additionally, the armor is now defined as being Armor (and conferring the in-game advantages of such) only where (not when! not if!) the metal plates, scales, and studs actually ARE, i.e. no more two-studs-in-the-middle-of-a-surcoat loophole. As for rings, it should be plain from the wording that a ring or washer with an ID >.75" is not a valid component of a composite armor.


A nice addition to that that I like is:

5.3.2 - Composite Armor: Studded, scaled, or "brigandine" armors will only be considered to be Armor where the metal plates, scales, or studs have gaps no larger than a penny (~.75") between them at any point. Any gaps larger than that will be considered breaks in the protection of the armor and strikes to those areas should be counted as though they had struck bare skin. Studs, scales, and plates may not be smaller than the gaps between them.


Which handily outlaws cheesy bradded-suede "armor" and quick-rivets-on-a-leather-jacket "armor" while allowing small scales or rings if one is willing to pay the price of density (the same price one pays for wearing maille). This even allows armor like BH's crotchentine, so long as the gaps at the corners are <.75". And if they do happen to have .8" gaps, say, he could easily add .3" diameter rivets in each gap to make it armor!




Oznog wrote:That IS an interesting addition. I'll have to think about that. The wording is odd in that the "gap" can't be clearly interpreted I think because "gap" tends to mean a linear distance, I think the idea is that if you had a hypothetical loose reinforcing item of the same type used in the armor and were able to place it without landing on any of the existing studs/rings then yes that's too much of a gap.

But, the wording you suggest would probably be read by many as exactly that, and it is fairly simple wording.

"Open space" might be better than "gap". Because, again, by "gap" someone could look at a square pattern and place a test disk between disks and say "well, it touches both, so it looks ok" but by "open space" I think that'd direct people to placing the test disk in the center of the large area in the middle. Or "largest open space" or "largest gap"?



Oznog wrote:OK, this looks to me like it makes the absolute minimum coverage with disks to be 30.3% metal, and that happens with the offset pattern 0.73 of the disk diameter apart.

The square pattern would require 39.25% coverage, and only 0.414 of the diameter apart.

You wanna verify that calc with yours?




Arrakis wrote:
CaydenNikaal wrote:Question: What about the thickness of the metal? What if someone makes a bunch of scales for their jerkin and the scales are say 24 ga. sheet metal? This SHOULD fall under Rule 0 for safety reasons, but this is a hypothetical I'm putting forward :P.

Near as I understood it, metal armor thickness was limited for safety reasons. But I may be understanding that wrong.


Yeah, I believe that metal thickness for non-plate armors is limited at 16 ga. elsewhere in the rules.

Oznog: I'll take your values as correct; they don't contradict my intuition and it's the weekend, so I don't feel like mathing, just now.

At some point I'll draw up minimum passing armor patterns for this new rule wording just to show the most minimal coverage allowed by this revision and post them, to let everyone actually see what the minimum composite armors are.





So, yeah. I'll post continuing coverage here, probably, in digest form.

Full thread here: DagBoards Threadliiiink...
User avatar
Arrakis
Warning: Knows Math
 
Posts: 4784
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:24 pm
Location: Central Jersey
Started Fighting: 17 Jun 2007
Realm: Crystal Groves
Unit: Omega
Favorite Fighting Styles: No gimmicks.
Pronouns: He/Him

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Mekoot Rowan » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:08 pm

Arrakis, if I read that right the best suggestion so far seems to be a 1" disk at weapons check to verify any suspicious armors.
Murder Tundra Horde
Spike wrote:This is the funniest thing I've ever read on these boards and the rest of you are bad at things generally, too.

Tiberius Claudius wrote:I don't get cosplay. It's like a weekend-long Halloween in a hotel where everyone gets the herp, but there's no candy.
User avatar
Mekoot Rowan
Hero
Hero
 
Posts: 1459
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2003 3:13 pm
Location: God's Country
Started Fighting: 15 Oct 2001
Realm: Frozen North
Unit: Murder Tundra Horde
Favorite Fighting Styles: Southern Praying Mantis

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Arrakis » Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:36 pm

I'd prefer to use a penny. It's 0.75" everybody has one, and it's a good compromise between 1" and the current ideal of the 1/2".
User avatar
Arrakis
Warning: Knows Math
 
Posts: 4784
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:24 pm
Location: Central Jersey
Started Fighting: 17 Jun 2007
Realm: Crystal Groves
Unit: Omega
Favorite Fighting Styles: No gimmicks.
Pronouns: He/Him

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Oznog » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:21 pm

Arrakis wrote:I'd prefer to use a penny. It's 0.75" everybody has one, and it's a good compromise between 1" and the current ideal of the 1/2".
Personally, I'd go with a quarter (nearly 1"), everybody has one of those too. But it's a matter of opinion. Honestly, it'd be SWELL if Amtgard, Dagorhir, and Bel all decided on the same standard so what you made for one game is good for another.

I'd recommend everybody get out a couple bucks in change and do some square and offset (equilateral triangle) layouts with the penny, nickel, and quarter spacing. And note the effect the reinforcement item size has on coverage. Tandy Rapid Rivets (or solid rivets of similar size which meet gauge requirements) wouldn't cover nearly as much even with the penny spacing.

Arrakis did come up with a suggestion of an additional rule, that the gap cannot be larger that the reinforcement item size either. So a 1/4" stud would be reduced to 1/4" gaps and thus 1/2" between centers, which is generally impractical (576/sq ft?). And some people WANT that to be impractical since small studs would have no protective value. Then again, the idea that even large studs have a protective value at all is also dubious.
User avatar
Oznog
Grunt
Grunt
 
Posts: 210
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:26 pm

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Oisin » Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:32 pm

Another change that, in my opinion needs to be made, is requiring studs/reinforcements/etc to be of armour thickness themselves.
Oisín Leathshúileach ua Duibhne
Ard Laech
Fíanna Cú Ruadh

An Fhírinne in aghaidh an tSaoil--Truth against the world.
User avatar
Oisin
Skull Crusher
Skull Crusher
 
Posts: 1345
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Arrakis » Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:08 pm

I always figured that was covered under the minimum thickness for metal armor rule, as it's clearly safety-based, not realism/protectiveness-based.

But explicitly defining it wouldn't be a bad idea.
User avatar
Arrakis
Warning: Knows Math
 
Posts: 4784
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:24 pm
Location: Central Jersey
Started Fighting: 17 Jun 2007
Realm: Crystal Groves
Unit: Omega
Favorite Fighting Styles: No gimmicks.
Pronouns: He/Him

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Oznog » Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:14 pm

Arrakis wrote:I always figured that was covered under the minimum thickness for metal armor rule, as it's clearly safety-based, not realism/protectiveness-based.

But explicitly defining it wouldn't be a bad idea.
I don't see that, no one could say that a Tandy Rapid Rivet presents a danger to anyone. Well, I think the "penny round" is probably satisfied due to the way the edges are rolled, but the gauge itself is quite thin.

I'm saying any safety-based rule would not apply- or, well, should not, by a common-sense "Rule 0" thing. Min gauge and basic criteria of what's "armor-grade" material might.

There's a way to make rivets using the thick, stubby roofing nails and a certain size of cheap washer that barely fits over it. You clip the nails short with heavy wirecutters or bolt cutters, put them through holes in the base material, put the washer on the other side, and peen the nail shaft out with a hammer to secure the washer. SCA uses that for riveting armor together all the time. When you see steel lames hanging down in plate, it's usually secured in back by a leather strap and that may be how it's riveted on.

So that would surely meet gauge req- but it's only like a 3/8" dia thing. Not much bigger than Tandy rivets anyways.
User avatar
Oznog
Grunt
Grunt
 
Posts: 210
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:26 pm

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Forkbeard » Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:07 am

Most rivets and studs are about 20 ga metal. Non are "easily deformable". There is no reason to change this rule.
I have felt the rules we use now meant that all studs must be within 1/2" of another stud in any direction(except at the edges). Not 1/2" in some places and 1" in others. The armor suposed in the diagram above(with square plates) fails.
I don't see the problem here.
FB
Warlord of the Western Uruk-Hai

Don't call it a comeback
I been here for years
Rockin my peers and puttin suckas in fear
User avatar
Forkbeard
Grizzled Veteran
Grizzled Veteran
 
Posts: 5604
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:46 pm
Location: Kung Foo Island
Started Fighting: 15 Jun 2000
Realm: Aquilonia
Unit: Western Uruk Hai
Favorite Fighting Styles: Just the Tip

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Slagar » Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:02 am

The problem is that not everybody sees it that way. If it ought to be that way, then a consensus needs to be reached, and probably clarified in the BoW, or people will continue to misinterpret it.

**** like this isn't for veterans who've been playing forever. It's for some kid making his first suit who knows **** all about the rules and gets conflicting answers from his realm. It happens, kind of a lot.
Numenorean expatriate
Gaffi Stick of the Sand Plains
Retainer to Squire Trogdor
User avatar
Slagar
Slayer
Slayer
 
Posts: 1177
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:24 pm
Location: Champaign, IL
Started Fighting: 18 Oct 2006
Realm: Numenor
Unit: The Amyr
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and Board

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Arrakis » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:21 pm

In fact, the rules for this sort of armor are for new kids; who else would want to waste an unbelievable amount of time pounding hundreds of rivets into a sheet of 8 oz leather when they could just pay a little more up front for 12-15 oz and make a cuirass? Broke new kids, that's who.
User avatar
Arrakis
Warning: Knows Math
 
Posts: 4784
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:24 pm
Location: Central Jersey
Started Fighting: 17 Jun 2007
Realm: Crystal Groves
Unit: Omega
Favorite Fighting Styles: No gimmicks.
Pronouns: He/Him

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Big King Jimmy » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:59 pm

I disagree, I see this most often with armored skirts. Which is far easier to construct and gives better coverage than some sort of leather hinged leg armor.
King of Dunharrow
Commander of Clan of the Hydra
Biggy Biggy J
Rather Large James
James of Enviable Girth
Jimmington
User avatar
Big King Jimmy
Grizzled Veteran
Grizzled Veteran
 
Posts: 5474
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:26 pm
Location: Elgin, IL (Dunharrow)
Started Fighting: 0- 5-2001
Realm: Dunharrow
Unit: Clan of the Hydra
Favorite Fighting Styles: Bat and Board, Archery, Spear

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Arrakis » Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:29 pm

Excepting warskirts, yes. I forgot them, even though they sparked my renewed interest in these rules, momentarily.

In the case of THOSE, we need clarity in the rules, as well.
User avatar
Arrakis
Warning: Knows Math
 
Posts: 4784
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:24 pm
Location: Central Jersey
Started Fighting: 17 Jun 2007
Realm: Crystal Groves
Unit: Omega
Favorite Fighting Styles: No gimmicks.
Pronouns: He/Him

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Forkbeard » Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:11 pm

I reacently got a bunch of wierd leather working **** from a school.
I have a lot of allagator textured ~5 oz leather in a couple colors.
I also have a **** ton of studs, rivets and eyelets. And snaps, hundereds of **** snaps.
I'm making studded leather cheater armor for myself. It's for Chaos War. It's soo **** hot and humid in that place that I just don't wear my other armor. I take it every year, but I don't wear it. I'm making armor I can wear in a swamp.
Anywhoo, I've been building it on the idea of 1/2" between metal bits in every direction. It hasn't been a problem at all.
The only problem I see is that some people are leaving too big of spaces btween the metal bits they put on. Some other people are telling them this is ok. It is not. It fails.
Most of the people who are doing this are trying to use the bare minimum material to make armor. This is against the rule about manipulating the loose wording of the rules.
Double fail.
If people are giving out bad info in a given realm, and the people aren't checking here for the real deal, we can't help them by changing the rules. Why would we expect they would get good info after the change if they aren't getting it now?
FB
Warlord of the Western Uruk-Hai

Don't call it a comeback
I been here for years
Rockin my peers and puttin suckas in fear
User avatar
Forkbeard
Grizzled Veteran
Grizzled Veteran
 
Posts: 5604
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:46 pm
Location: Kung Foo Island
Started Fighting: 15 Jun 2000
Realm: Aquilonia
Unit: Western Uruk Hai
Favorite Fighting Styles: Just the Tip

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Arrakis » Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:22 am

Yeah, absolutely. But we do need to change the wording so that it actually says what we mean, just for sanity and correctness.
User avatar
Arrakis
Warning: Knows Math
 
Posts: 4784
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:24 pm
Location: Central Jersey
Started Fighting: 17 Jun 2007
Realm: Crystal Groves
Unit: Omega
Favorite Fighting Styles: No gimmicks.
Pronouns: He/Him

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Oznog » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:06 pm

Forkbeard wrote:Anywhoo, I've been building it on the idea of 1/2" between metal bits in every direction. It hasn't been a problem at all.
The only problem I see is that some people are leaving too big of spaces btween the metal bits they put on. Some other people are telling them this is ok. It is not. It fails.
Most of the people who are doing this are trying to use the bare minimum material to make armor. This is against the rule about manipulating the loose wording of the rules.

In EVERY direction? Are you saying that from any point on the perimeter of one bit, you cannot draw a 1/2" line in any direction without hitting another bit?

Because, for example, note the "square" pattern of disks. Even if they're spaced <1/2" apart, I can draw a line much longer than 1/2" from the right edge of the one on the top left and go down between the two on the row beneath. This would be true even if the spacing were only 0.1".
User avatar
Oznog
Grunt
Grunt
 
Posts: 210
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:26 pm

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Forkbeard » Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:27 am

Then the square pattern fails. Thats what I am saying. All you have to do is lay out your studs(or whatever) in a stagered pattern. A pattern that does not leave empty spaces larger than 1/2".


FB
Warlord of the Western Uruk-Hai

Don't call it a comeback
I been here for years
Rockin my peers and puttin suckas in fear
User avatar
Forkbeard
Grizzled Veteran
Grizzled Veteran
 
Posts: 5604
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:46 pm
Location: Kung Foo Island
Started Fighting: 15 Jun 2000
Realm: Aquilonia
Unit: Western Uruk Hai
Favorite Fighting Styles: Just the Tip

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Sir Killian » Mon May 24, 2010 3:48 pm

i think this rule is solid and it seems to work well...

it seems to bother people cause it can be cheesed so easily....

my armor has 5/8in spacing and my leather plates are 2.5X2.5 inches

so over 66% of my armor is leather i only made it that way cause my presser foot was 5/8in wide....

why should a 2.5in sword pass thru a 1/2in gap?
Sir Killian Atreides of the Goats
Defender of the Steins
Shield & Hammer of House Hellhammer
Knight of Wolfpack of The Highplains

Sir Par wrote:Its all about Herpes? Then I've this **** down SOLID for years!
User avatar
Sir Killian
Ninja
Ninja
 
Posts: 1670
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 1:24 am
Location: Right in the Ruins Of Wildwood
Realm: Wolfpack- Ruins of Wildwood
Unit: Hellhammer
Favorite Fighting Styles: The one I kill you with

Re: 1/2 inch Spacing in Armor.

Postby Arrakis » Mon May 24, 2010 4:35 pm

Killian: That's fallacious. It's a .25" wide sword blade. We have to represent it with a 1.2" wide piece of foam. Your armor is 66% leather? That means it's the same as making a full-coverage breastplate out of 66%*12oz = 8oz leather! Why in the hell should that be legal in a game where 8oz leather armor is illegal?
User avatar
Arrakis
Warning: Knows Math
 
Posts: 4784
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:24 pm
Location: Central Jersey
Started Fighting: 17 Jun 2007
Realm: Crystal Groves
Unit: Omega
Favorite Fighting Styles: No gimmicks.
Pronouns: He/Him


Return to Rules Discussion And Development

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests