I just recently came across this discussion.

I am very suprised by these answers.

Just because i was curious i checked out the weapon. It came in many sizes (up to at least 41", as small as 10") Their appears to be some form of handle inside judging by the large armor ball at the base of the blade. I cant tell if its a T handle or a straight one. Anyone ever see/handle a real one?

On the original weapons the armored part extended about half way up the forearm. Instead of outright outlawing the weapon, work something out.

We can build full basket hilts on our swords and thats not anviling if that gets hit right? Its not like its gonna be more dangerous. At least he wont need hockey golves to protect his hands, alot of those go past the wrist, are they considered armor? Hell this would look alot cooler than hockey gloves.

Here is what i propose--->

1> Instruct owner that foam extentions offer him no in game protection (no armor) but at least his hands wont be hurt. This would also mean that any strike above the wrist that hits foam is still a good hit and that the arm is gone.

1a. To avoid it being too short and thus punchy, make mimimum blade length 24" and allow a green.

If said owner is found to be a cheat, the head herald should have the right to tell the owner that he may no longer fight with his fancy swords.

Discuss

What part of no do you not understand? The rules forum is not your personal playground to re-bring up past topics just because you didn't like the answer. I'm fairly certain that if you can't post in the rules questions forum responsibly your ability to use it can be removed.

A pata is a PUNCHING WEAPON, even it's it's longer, the direction of intended use is parallel to the direction of the forearm. Basket hilts cover the HAND an area that already isn't a hit location and are made out of foam or surgical tubing, not a length of weapon down your fore-arm. "Let's work out how to allow people to break several different rules on the field because gosh darn it, I want to."

No.

Deal.

This is more for rules discussion. It's not a rules question and that forum isn't a place for anything but question & answer type stuff.

For the record, my response was given when this post was posted in the "rules question" forum, after which Derian moved it to here. If it were here, I would have responded differently.

Why the **** can this idiot post in that rules questions forum when I can't.
He's obviously **** retarded AND doesn't know the rules.
Why are we discussing this.
No, you can't do it.
No, it's not the same thing as a basket hilt. I have one made from armor grade leather, it's still not armor.
There is no reason why this kid NEEDS the hand protection suposedly offered by this illegal weapon. He should wear gloves if he wants hand protection.
FB

Forkbeard - Anyone can start a post, only people Derian approves can reply. PLEASE pm Derian.

Pata facts-

1 IT IS NOT A PUNCH WEAPON. proof?
you tube type in indian weapon-pata. its a freakin slashing sword.

2. the gauntlet is only armored on the outside, (this means the inner arm is exposed children, and yes that does mean its function is identical to that of a basket hilt it protects the exposed part of the hand/plus a bit of the arm) so its not actually "strapped on". if u release the handle it should drop right off. Not a saftey issue there.
The additional bar to the rear of the gauntlet is for control nothing more. One more time IT IS NOT STRAPPED ON.

3. Could a work around be made, of course. Lots of them. Listed below are just a few. People really should not make assumptions about designs/use of a weapon just because they have fought in this game for a few years. No one here is truely a master of any real weapon.

Here is just a few ideas---

Make the glove out of leather. since weapons cant be strapped on any part of the body, strikes to the weapon on the top of the arm dont count as weapon but part of the glove. one hit to the glove its armor is gone. second hit takes the arm.

Make minimum blade length 24". Far less likely to stab someone and punch them in the face. In fact if you did pull that off then you did it on purpose and guess what, you shouldnt be there should you?

Make it something a local group tests out first. Tape its proper use and bring it to war council for allowance on national battlefields

The BoW has changed over the years. So did the dag rules. The rule you are quoting is in place for punch daggers/knives. It was put there so some moron didnt punch people in the face. To be honest a guy like that dont belong on the field.

The fact is that some weapons(such as punch daggers in my opinion) require specialized training to use properly. Dagorhir/Belegarth doesnt usually have people with that training avail to them.

If you want this weapon to be allowed so badly, then you should do what you are saying and build the weapon, take some video of the fighting, and send it in.

The biggest issue is that, to make and properly hold a pata, it puts the blade parallel to the line of your forearm. Any stabbing AT ALL that is done with the weapon would be a punching motion, and that is explicitly illegal by BoW standards. The only way to make a legal Pata would be for it to be slashing only, no stabbing tip allowed. At that point, you're better off saving the time and resources and just making a standard sword. Doing that, you also avoid the potential risk of your hand getting caught up inside the weapon and your fingers/wrist getting broken.

A pata is always a sword with the handle at 90 degrees to the blade. That makes it a supreme punching weapon. They stab with incredible power.
People in inda used them despite the fact that they have jack **** for defense because they fought unarmored and poorly armed oppoents alot and the increased stabing power made for spectacular and terrifing kills.
The patta IS a stabbing weapon. I don't care if you found a youtube video with a guy slashing with one. You can find people doing all kinds of retarded **** on youtube. Why the **** would that be evidence?
Make it and try it if you want, but Aquilonia will vote against it every time.
And your condesending tone and **** attitude aren't making you any freinds, bub.
FB

You Sir are wrong.
It has nothing to do with punching people in the face. Punch weapons are illegal because they confer too much force to the target. Because the handle is at a 90 deg angle to the blade, the amount of force you can create is much greater than with a standard hilt where the wrist is severely bent creating a weakness that limits the strength of a stab.

Punch weapons hurt people, that's why they are banned. If this is made stabbing, then it is a punch weapon. If you plan to make this slashing only then I could see it being OK. Fairly useless, but legal. Good luck, have fun with it.

Even wikipedia doesn't agree with you (regarding punching/slashing).

Also, any weapon on the field must be safe for anyone to use.

Build one and let me punch you with it, then we'll see if it's safe. I'd bet about $50 I could bruise an organ with one.

I'd pay to see th...

Well. No, I wouldn't. But I would watch that with a cold beer and laugh.

Dirk, don't act like such a tool.

Precedent against punching weapons aside (IMO, punching or not, if it's safe it's safe), I don't really think the BoW needs another subclass of blue weapons that a) requires new restrictions b) creates a new superclass of blue/armor type weapons and c) will never see any legitimate use on the field.

Caleidah- I never said i wanted one. Hell i dont even know the guy who asked about it. This got started because people were not being helpful they were just saying no.
Forky- buddy you of all people have no room to tell anyone anything about giving attitude. Yours towards me has been way less than nice from the begining. Now as for the pata being punchy. The original design was, however as it evolved the blade became more flexible making it an improbable, or poor stabbing weapon. The youtube comment, i saw actual indian people demonstrating how the weapon was used. Now i do admit i didnt watch all the videos, but the ones i saw had 98%slashing moves. Big circular motions.
Soo Ma Tai- Dude i was freakin there you were not. I heard all the griping about punch daggers. Most of it was in fact people not liking the chance of faces getting punched especially durring grappling. Dominus(thats probably not spelled right lol) and Sir Owen the the many many names and titles if i remember right were 2 of the people who spoke out against them the most.

Rasheab- as far as i recall the owner of a weapon may still refuse to allow you to pick up their weapon. Oh, and wiki, really? lol I get slammed for a you tube reference and u bring in wiki, even i didnt go there. I did however read the article, and it did not say i am wrong. It said the weapon COULD be used as a katar but because of the support on the arm COULD also be used as an effective slashing weapon.
BigJimmy- Really, i expected better man. Im quite sure that by todays standards in thrusting tips that kind of damage can be done with any weapon as long as enough force and a proper stabbing tecnique are applied.

Arrakis- lol
Giggles- Every weapon deserves its day. If we cant make it safely than fine, but to out law it based on assumptions and guess work is just not smart. We are a medieval combat society, we should be looking into these things with open eyes and minds.

I seriously doubt that this weapon could ever be made safe. Imagine taking a spear to the gut by the baddest mother on the field....and then imagine giving him the weapon you suggest and letting him stab you with it. I promise you that he is going to do some damage.

The problem is that a Pata isn't going to behave like its real world counterpart. I don't give a crap whether the ancient indians used it to slash, stab, or * pick their teeth after eating babies, the fact of the matter is that if you built this out of foam and fiberglass, it would end up being a punching weapon with insane force when used to stab, and THAT you can not make safely, Period.

Now you could pad the * thing to the point of insanity, but at that point your holding a giant pillow on a shovel handle and its not a Pata anymore.

So, in this case, no. Not every weapon deserves its day, and you can't make a safe one.

Like I said in the weird PM you sent me, I don't know you dude. I did a post search and I've never posted in a thread that you posted in except this one.
And for the record, we're still all saying no. All your shouting and arm flailing is just making you look dumb.
You are right that you can refuse to let people use your weapons. But you are also required to make your weapons so that any fool CAN pick them up and use them safely. That IS the rule, wether you want them to use your **** or not.
You absolutely can not make weapons that require special use to be safe and then only allow those in the know(yourself) to use them.
I don't care how old you are or who's name you drop(name dropping is gay), you don't know what you're talking about.
Since your issue is with people telling a kid no about a weapon, you're going to be busy, We tell 5 kids a week that their idea wion't work and is illegal. People have all kinds of stupid ideas, regularly.
FB

*, Double Froggy Middle Fingers? *.

I just got told.

PS: build one, do some pell-work, realize that the weapon sucks for slashing because it's in line with your arm and immobilizes your wrist. One block, one cut and you're in deep ****.

Wow My bad, with 26 posts here, not having ever heard your name, and asking about weapons that are expressly illegal and then trying to justify it later when you were already told it wouldn't pass, kinda makes you sound like a noob. What your saying then is you started fighting before 1994, because that rule was on the books in Dur-D when I started in 94'. It's the reason I was given when I started and that's the reason I believed them to be banned. If you were there, then you should have known such weapons are, and have been banned for over 15 years.

Are you crazy? I've been stabbed the hardest I've ever seen, at a practice where I'd shot PtQ for probably 5 or 6 fights straight, he broke the line and just destroyed my gut. I'd put good money that the fighters that saw that would say it's the hardest they've ever seen someone stabbed too (in a situation that isn't a freak accident, I've seen worse but someone didn't realize they'd planted a spear. Then someone ran into it, bad move.)

In normal use, nothing is capable of delivering the the kind of force you can deliver with a straight punch, the breaking of the wrist that a stab has with any blue weapon now ensures it will never even be close. I'm sorry your wrong, but your wrong.

I went and watched some youtube videos of Indian Pata users. Do you honestly think you could build a sword that long, flexy and safe for Bele even with new rules making it legal???? Power to you if you can, but the way those guys moved almost looked more like a ritual dance with a whippy blade for style. Not a Belegarth applicable weapon in the least.

If that isn't the type of Pata you are thinking of, than we're either back to a punching weapon or you're not explaining what you're thinking clearly.

If you had any pics or videos in particular I'd like to see what you're talking about. Maybe draw up some diagrams of what you think a Belegarth legal Pata would look like.

Just want to say, ignoring the OP for now, that it makes me feel good to see how the Belegarth community is handling this. Some fool asked about PATAs on the Dag forums, and I felt pretty alone in arguing against them. And he was asking about them in an even more ridiculous way.

Anyway, thanks for staying cool, y'all.

I've never built anything this exotic. Since everyone is tellin me i should, well i MAY try.

Truely though this was not about me in the slightest. I didnt want it. I wanted a discussion about why it could not be, not just "NO it cant be done" or "go read the rulez nub".

That was the impression i was left with when i read the original pata post, and is the sole reason i continued this thread.

I do feel that all weapons should be considered. As our tech and skills with different foams increase more weapons that may not be allowed right now may be allowed in the future.

This weapon isn't banned for a reason that exotic foams will fix. It's banned because a part of the weapon covering a legal target location on your body is against the rules. You can't use new and interesting foams to change that.

And the fact that any weapon HAS to be safe for anyone to use. Even IF you made a pata and said YOU wouldn't stab with it, I could still pick it up and rupture your spleen with it with a stab, so it still fails.
Fancy foam won't change physics, either.
FB

Dirk.. no just no. Not even bruce could make this thing safe. Its stupid and a waste of time if i have too ill be out you your practice to make sure it breaks.

Well, I can say this- the pata sword was just a retarded idea, even historically. It not only sacrifices all wrist freedom, but it is not even held secure. That is, with the handle perpendicular to the arm, that handle can rotate easily in your grip and the sword can move a lot in either direction. AFAIK that handguard's there to stabilize it, but does not do so with a good degree of stiffness. With a stronger brace, it's still got slack, but you may run a risk of injuring your own wrist.

With no wrist freedom, and a tendency to rotate, it's a very poor slashing weapon. Not a good stabby either. In fact, it's just crap all the way around.

I don't know how you were planning to build it, but the common idea is PVC joints. These often don't hold up.

I note that Amtgard does allow it, well it doesn't ban it, but no, I don't recall the last time I saw one in use. It'd be suicide.

I think they're a lot harder to make and use safely, but I don't think they're always inherently unsafe. It doesn't have any gimmicks that give it an unsafe advantage. But it's a pointless battle to fight, it's not a useful weapon. At most you'd get a few gimmick kills where people were initially confused as to what they were up against.

I think I ended up with a total of two kills with my staff back when I started fighting and thought it would be cool to have one. One was a kill from behind (hey, it was still a kill) and the other I don't remember...

That being said, I died a WHOLE lot more than killed. People are pretty crafty and if it isn't a stabby, then most people won't be thrown for a loop when they come up against it. If it is a stabby, then you might get lucky with a stab kill against someone without armor.

~Þ~