Body Checks

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Body Checks

Postby Derian » Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:56 pm

Inspired by this thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=35503

I wanted to check and see how others interpret the rules here. We can all agree that a body check is acceptable. Is a body check against another player's body 'grappling'?
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Re: Body Checks

Postby Diomedes » Sat Jul 10, 2010 3:35 pm

Though technically not a "grapple", i.e. grabbing someone, I've always considered any direct person to person contact to fall under the grapple rules. Just because I'm not grabbing you doesn't mean that I can just run into you with my plate armor. The same danger applies, if not more so do to the increased force of a body check.
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Re: Body Checks

Postby varadin » Sat Jul 10, 2010 5:44 pm

I dont consider a body check a grapple. Grappling is always about controlling someone with your force. Grabbing a shoulder and pulling them is grappling, Shoving them is not. You are just pushing them its not about control its about getting them away.

So body checking someone while in armor= okay in my book
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Re: Body Checks

Postby Davit » Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:41 pm

Body checking a shield in armor is ok, you're not putting someone who is unarmored at risk. Body checking someone when you are in armor and they are not is more dangerous than grappling someone while you are in armor and they are not so no I do not think it is ok. As you said varadin you have less control over a check than a grapple and it is therefore more dangerous. Putting on armor you add hard bits and more weight (therefore more force) to the check.
Shoving someone is not a check, checking someone is more like a hockey type maneuver than pushing someone around so if you had some body armor on and you shoved someone out of the way, then yes it's ok, checking someone with your body (which is what I assume derian started talking about) is not.
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Re: Body Checks

Postby Cyric » Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:49 am

To clarify the point i made in the other thread, I would consider someone body checking me to be initiating grappling, and therefor restricted by armor. This is only for body to body, if it is body to shield then it is not.
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Re: Body Checks

Postby Arrakis » Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:29 am

If someone hits me with a piece of metal plate on their body, they're going to the ground.
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Re: Body Checks

Postby Elebrim » Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:30 pm

Body-to-body "contact" is something many I have spoken with also consider to be initiating grappling. However:

The BoW wrote:3.6.3. No throws, unarmed strikes, or joint/nerve holds.


The difference between incidental body "contact" and a "body check" is intentionality. It's the difference between falling into someone and actively pushing into someone, same as incidental shield contact. A body check could (I believe should) be defined as an unarmed strike - using the body, without any combat equipment involved, to strike an opponent directly for the purpose of gaining combat advantage. Body-to-shield, conversely, has the shield as equipment involved in the scenario, and is therefore an armed strike. In reverse, it is a strike to a piece of equipment and not to an opponent.

Body checking in our game isn't safe. Think of what would happen if we suddenly gave people the thumbs up to shoulder-bash someone in the chest or charge head-first into someone's side to tackle them down. People would get hurt.
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Re: Body Checks

Postby Cade » Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:28 am

Stopping a charge or a shield bash using your own body shouldn't be illegal since you aren't the one initiating the contact....some part of me thinks that anyone charging someone else no matter his intent is sort of rolling the dice. You can't be sure what your going to get in return, and if you can't handle the possible outcomes, you probably shouldn't do it and if you get sent sprawling by someone in full plate, you kinda made a bad decision in trying to charge or bash into him.

If your charging someone while fully armored yourself, it depends on what you do when and if you make contact with the other person. If you charge in and grab for his weapon...illegal because your initiating grappling against an unarmored or lesser armored opponent. If you charge in and plant your shield in his face...not cool, but not grappling because your not trying to grab him or lay hands on him, just knock him over.

If you charge in, regardless of intent, and HE plants his shoulder into your chest or body checks you in some way...i would see it as grappling, but you didn't initiate it. he did by checking you, so you are justified in grappling him.

End result is that its arguable ether way, but if im armored and someone checks me, or makes aggressive physical contact with me in any way, im responding in kind regardless of his armor level and the martial can sort it out if someone has a problem with it. Its a gray area, so it really falls into a case by case ruling.

least that's how I see it.

EDIT: Plowing into someone while wearing plate isn't body checking...its tackling and isn't legal regardless of what armor your wearing. A body check is defined as stopping a charge or any forward motion of your opponent with your own body. In our sport a body check can only really happen when two people are heading towards one another.

You can't body check someone who is standing still...you can only plow into them or shove them, two things which are not permitted as i understand it.
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Re: Body Checks

Postby Arrakis » Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:45 am

A quick note from a guy who spent time getting trampled by a certain Dagorhir unit recently:

If you're wearing a lot of metal armor and you "shield bash" people by running at them full-steam from across the field, plowing them over teammates, and then, when they finally fall, HARD, to the ground, possibly landing on other people in armor, you walk on them?

Get the **** off the field, you jackass.
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Re: Body Checks

Postby Cyric » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:33 am

Unarmed strikes are kicking and punching. A body check is a body check.

Also, grabbing a weapon is not considered initiating grappling. Otherwise i would be able to use a spear to stab at a line of armored people, and if i didn't have armor, they couldn't attempt to grab the haft of the spear.

As with all things in this sport, common sense is the overriding factor. If people are smart about it, it's safe. If people are jackasses, then a marshal needs to step in. I have seen way more injuries come from missed shield kicks than from grappling.
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Re: Body Checks

Postby Loptr » Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:20 am

quick search for "body check"

http://www.yourdictionary.com/body-check
body check
noun
A check, as in ice hockey, in which a player impedes another with the body.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checking_(ice_hockey)
(yeah it’s a wiki, suck it) If hockey (a potentially violent sport) legislates the style of checking………
Body checking
Using the body to knock an opponent against the boards or to the ice. This is often referred to as simply checking or hitting and is only permitted on an opponent with possession of the puck. Body checking can be penalized when performed recklessly. Charging, hitting from behind and boarding are examples of illegal hits, due to their dangerous nature and increased likelihood of causing serious injury. In women's hockey, any body checking is a penalty and is also usually not allowed in amateur leagues and leagues with young children. Some intramural university leagues do not permit bodychecking, in order to avoid injury and incidents of fighting. "Leaning" against opponents is an alternative to body checking but, if abused, may be penalized for holding.
Hip-checking
When a player drops to a near-crouching stance and swings his hips toward an opposing player, sending the opponent off balance, often falling to the ice. A hit below the knees is considered an infraction in the National Hockey League, and called "clipping".
Shoulder-checking
The most common type of body-check, in which a player puts his shoulder into his opponent to muscle the opponent out of position. The elbow must be tucked in, or the player risks taking a penalty for elbowing.


I am all for simple rules. But unfortunantly relying on "heralds with sac" can and will likely lead to unneeded injuries do the the random **** who argues its not defined by the BoW.

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Re: Body Checks

Postby Derian » Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:03 pm

Cyric wrote:Also, grabbing a weapon is not considered initiating grappling.


Woo!

The distinction is whether or not you grab equipment (sword, shield, spear, whatever) or the person.
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Re: Body Checks

Postby Forkbeard » Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:28 pm

We beat this dog to death a long time ago.
Grabbing a weapon is definetly not initiaing a grapple. I think that sucks, but it is the rules.
Body checking shouldn't be considered grapling either. But if it ends in an uncontroled fall, it's dangerous and therefore illegal.
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Re: Body Checks

Postby Thorondor » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:11 pm

Forkbeard wrote:We beat this dog to death a long time ago.
Grabbing a weapon is definetly not initiaing a grapple. I think that sucks, but it is the rules.
Body checking shouldn't be considered grapling either. But if it ends in an uncontroled fall, it's dangerous and therefore illegal.
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We beat the scythe dog to death almost monthly...why not a newer dog?

But I have to agree, body checking isn't grappling, but if it ends up uncontrolled, it's illegal. We don't want people being checked into obstacles, other people, etc. I really don't see a body check happening unless it's close quarters fighting (bridge battle maybe), but its always worth having an equal answer that's been discussed.
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Re: Body Checks

Postby Angmarth » Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:29 am

Slippery slope warning! The danger in "uncontrolled fall" being the deciding factor here is that would almost all but eliminate the ability of larger stronger people to be able to shield bash (or in this case body check) smaller opponents. Vokor will almost send anyone he bashes into an "uncontrollable fall". I do not like that line of reasoning, I think it leads down the wrong path. Being run over by a larger, heavier, stronger opponent is part of the game in my opinion. However, stepping on someone when they are down is an entirely different story.
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Re: Body Checks

Postby Thorondor » Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:13 pm

It's possible that once someone is checked they're not going to bounce off, so they're going to end up falling on top of each other and possibly starting to grapple. So, maybe body checks should fall in line with shield checking and grappling BOTH as far as the rules go?

IE: Can't check rear quadrant, can't check someone carrying arrows/bow, tiered armor rules, etc. I thought "uncontrolled" was in the grappling rules, but it wasn't (my bad)

I see what you mean about bashes creating uncontrolled falls Angmarth. I remember you sending me flying a couple times...

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Re: Body Checks

Postby Davit » Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:17 pm

Learning how to fall is someone's responsibility in this game, if you haven't yet, learn soon. However the issue in my opinion here is the fact that intentional body to body contact is grappling. If a small person who is armored up to **** body checks another person who is twice their size and doesn't have armor on I'm going to tell them to sit down. If they have a shield in between that's different, that's a shield bash and comes in on the bashing side of the coin. It's really simple, body to body contact = grappling, body to weapon or body to shield contact do not and therefore don't have to worry who's armored no matter the size of the person. Slippery slopes are prevented by those using logic and common sense in these situations, do so and you prevent a lot of problems.
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Re: Body Checks

Postby Elebrim » Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:40 pm

Thank you, Loptr, for the definitions.
Loptr wrote:If hockey (a potentially violent sport) legislates the style of checking………
Body checking
Using the body to knock an opponent against the boards or to the ice. This is often referred to as simply checking or hitting and is only permitted on an opponent with possession of the puck. Body checking can be penalized when performed recklessly. Charging, hitting from behind and boarding are examples of illegal hits, due to their dangerous nature and increased likelihood of causing serious injury. In women's hockey, any body checking is a penalty and is also usually not allowed in amateur leagues and leagues with young children. Some intramural university leagues do not permit bodychecking, in order to avoid injury and incidents of fighting. "Leaning" against opponents is an alternative to body checking but, if abused, may be penalized for holding.
Hip-checking
When a player drops to a near-crouching stance and swings his hips toward an opposing player, sending the opponent off balance, often falling to the ice.
A hit below the knees is considered an infraction in the National Hockey League, and called "clipping".
Shoulder-checking
The most common type of body-check, in which a player puts his shoulder into his opponent to muscle the opponent out of position.
The elbow must be tucked in, or the player risks taking a penalty for elbowing.

Emphases mine. Clearly, these examples of body checking are active offensive moves used to gain an in-game advantage and are performed without the use of game equipment. For our purposes, they can safely be classified as unarmed strikes and are therefore illegal.

I also have to disagree with the idea that a body check can be construed as a form of grapple. Grappling implicitly means wrestling or grasping for the opponent or his/her equipment, and a check just does not do that. If a fighter, unshielded, tried to yank my shield away from me, that would be grappling. If the fighter grabbed me and safely wrestled me to the ground until a teammate could help, that would be grappling. If that fighter used his or her body to push my shield away or knock it back (shield is still involved), that would be a legitimate move - but not a grapple because he isn't trying to actively wrestle with myself or my equipment. If that fighter just shoulder-checked me or hip-checked me, per the description above, that isn't grappling and definitely isn't safe.

Come to think of it, this issue is a lot like shield kicking. Shield kicking is legal, but if you miss the shield and kick the person behind it that is a serious rules violation, not to mention a safety issue.
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Re: Body Checks

Postby Kage » Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:45 am

Cyric pretty much covered this thread.
Cyric wrote:Unarmed strikes are kicking and punching. A body check is a body check.

Also, grabbing a weapon is not considered initiating grappling. Otherwise i would be able to use a spear to stab at a line of armored people, and if i didn't have armor, they couldn't attempt to grab the haft of the spear.

As with all things in this sport, common sense is the overriding factor. If people are smart about it, it's safe. If people are jackasses, then a marshal needs to step in. I have seen way more injuries come from missed shield kicks than from grappling.


Something I can add is that its not just weapons that don't count toward initiating a grapple but all equipment. And unarmed opponent wearing no armor yanking or controlling your shield is not a initiating a grapple. Interestingly grabbing a quiver as and archer turns to run isn't considered grappling him. However like most things in this sport, common sense trumps all.
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Re: Body Checks

Postby Sir Anastasia » Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:00 pm

Doesn't it seem like we shouldn't allow people to grab either quivers or bows? I had previously thought of grappling as including weapon grabs, but if they do not; I feel we should consider adding a rule that forbids grabbing archery equipment. I can't think of a worse thing to fight over. As you say, I am sure no reasonably intelligent person would do this...but we have safety rules on the books far milder than this already, and I strongly feel the original archery rule was meant to cover this circumstance in spirit.
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Re: Body Checks

Postby Forkbeard » Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:56 pm

Grabing a quiver is like grabbing clothing. Don't be **** rediculas.
I see what you mean, Angmarth.
I see shield bashing as different because you can only shield bash people with shields of their own. Thus having a shield signals to everyone that you are down for bashing.
Body checking people can be done to anyone, therefore could be tought of a requiring more control.
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Re: Body Checks

Postby Thorondor » Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:45 pm

Forkbeard wrote:I see shield bashing as different because you can only shield bash people with shields of their own. Thus having a shield signals to everyone that you are down for bashing.FB


Since when can you only bash people with shields of their own? I was under the impression that shield bashing/checking could be done to anyone as long as you aren't being a * about it (ie bashing an archer) and you are under control of your body. You need to be able to stop a bash/check in case your target turns their back to you...

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Re: Body Checks

Postby Sir Anastasia » Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:01 pm

Forkbeard wrote:Grabing a quiver is like grabbing clothing. Don't be **** rediculas.
FB


I had envisioned the quiver filled with arrows...pointy knocks, pointy bow, ect. Grabbing and fighting over pointy archery stuff... If it isn't dangerous to do this, why do we have the rule that you can't grapple with archers in the first place? or why do we treat them differently at all? Perhaps my understanding of why we have these rules is incorrect, I thought it was to prevent damage to sensitive equipment and to prevent injuries.
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Re: Body Checks

Postby Arrakis » Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:12 pm

Forkbeard wrote:I see shield bashing as different because you can only shield bash people with shields of their own.


Hah hah hah hah hah hah hah hah hah hah.

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Re: Body Checks

Postby Elebrim » Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:14 am

Didn't see this before, but I want to respond nevertheless.

Cyric wrote:Unarmed strikes are kicking and punching. A body check is a body check.


I respectfully disagree, and I think that the first person who takes an elbow in the sternum will disagree also. Elbows, knees, hips, shoulders, even the head, are all points on the body that can do serious damage that don't involve a direct kick or punch. A "body check" as per Loptr's provided definition essentially integrates them (read: shoulder check, hip check, etc.). For our purposes it needs to be considered a form of unarmed strike.

Also, on the whole grappling archers' equipment thing -

3.6.4. Combatants with Missile Weapons (Type 4, bow/arrows) may not initiate Grapples or be Grappled.


For melee fighters I accept the distinction between equipment and the person (mostly because of the spear example), but for archers I don't because of the above rule. I question how someone can come to the conclusion that grappling the person is illegal but grappling the arrows directly attached to them via a quiver is somehow magically OK. At what point does common sense actually take over and make people realize that such an idea is harmful?
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Re: Body Checks

Postby Cyric » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:55 am

Ok, elbows and knees count as strikes too. do you want me to add finger pokes and headbutts to the list of strikes? It wasn't meant to be an exhaustive list, it was an example. A body check doesn't hit with the same force as an unarmed strike, which is why you don't see people in the UFC running into each other. I can also dig up rules for some other sport that say its ok to hit people with your arms, such as a stiff arm in football. That doesn't necessarily mean it applies to us.

This game is about COMBAT.There are going to be some inherent dangers when you play violent games. As i said, grappling and body checks very rarely cause a serious injury. More people get hurt running around on the field than they do from bashing and grappling. There is absolutely zero need to go about trying to ban body checks, but you're more than welcome to try. I seriously doubt that will pass war council.
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Re: Body Checks

Postby Derian » Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:18 am

I'm siding with Cyric on this one. A safe body check is less dangerous than a safe shield bash or edging. Can they be unsafe? Sure, but so can everything else in this game. It's up to the participants and marshals to ensure that games are as safe as possible.
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Re: Body Checks

Postby Forkbeard » Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:54 am

Thanks Arrakis. I was totally wrong there. You can sheild bash anyone.
Where the **** did I get that idea? I swear it used to be in there. Maybe my mind is playing tricks with me again.
Eh, whatever. Now I know.
As for rules about body checking, no there aren't going to be any. This is a "heralds discretion" issue as it is more about situational safety than firm rules. 99% of the time body checking is fine and the 1% when it's dangerous should be clear to everyone(i.e. body checking someone off a cliff, into rocks or into a tree).
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Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:46 pm
Location: Kung Foo Island
Started Fighting: 15 Jun 2000
Realm: Aquilonia
Unit: Western Uruk Hai
Favorite Fighting Styles: Just the Tip


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