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 Post subject: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:30 am 
Gladiator
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Seriously......
There is a thread on this topic a ways back. I am starting a new thread to seperate the mixed discussions.

As more and more stabby tips make it onto the field it is causing a fundamental shift in the way Bel fights. Its exciting to see the learning going on with delivering and countering stabs.

The sole question of the thread is this:
WHY DOES A SINGLE GREEN NOT DO DAMAGE TO ARMOR? And Should it?

The arguments against seem to be three fold:
1. I have armor and dont want to get nerfed.
2. It complicates the rules.
3. Safety

None of these arguments seem to really hold any water.
1. Armor gives you the same protection as it does against a blue. Why would a blue not be able to deliver one point regardless of slash or stab?
2. Complicates the rules? A blue does one point slash or stab. That seems to simplify the ruleset if anything.
3. Safety, same concerns we have with any weapon. Is that not why we have weapons check?

Have at it.

Loptr

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:51 pm 
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Some of the problem involves the inequality between piercing and slashing/bludgeoning damage in Belegarth. If single greens now do a point to an armored area, then do we need to adjust the limb death rules for greens?

Anyway you slice that one, I'm for it.


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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:17 pm 
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I would be cool with it. I don't think we need to change pierces to limbs, only that they would now damage armored limbs too.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:19 pm 
Hero
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In Arnor, we already have "any two limbs no matter how you get them is death". It doesn't affect the combat either positively or negatively for playability, is arguably safer (you don't have any maniancs running around with no arms or anything else ridiculous), and it is marginally more historically accurate (meaning that any 2 limbs hits would incapacitate you, if you don't believe me... let me shoot you with 2 arrows or stab you in a couple of limbs).

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:28 pm 
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Pardon me, I didn't mean to second-post derail.

Let's keep focus on just changing one-handed greens from doing nothing to armored target areas to doing one point of damage to armored target areas.

Should stabbed/hacked for Death By Dismemberment be determined by the second hit to an armored limb? Sounds simplest to me.


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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:47 pm 
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Changing greens to "break" armor makes things simpler, increases weapon diversity, and may make it more fun for a lot of people. I am in favor of this change.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:01 pm 
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Whatever is laying around.
Agreed (in support of single green doing damage).

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:41 pm 
Hero
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Loptr, another point that you neglected to mention is:

4. This would make us too different from Dagorhir.

I'm supportive of removing antiquated, complicated rules that stagnate our combat and (and cripple my pet weapon ;)). I would be 100% behind one handed stabs with class 3 weapons acting like class 1 damage. Maybe changing the rules from this
BoW wrote:
3.2.2.3. Class 3 (thrusting) Weapons wielded one-handed cause one hit of damage to an unarmored Target Area. Class 3 Weapons also cause two hits of damage when wielded two-handed against a Target Area, ignoring any Armor the Target Area may have. If the Target Area is armored, the Weapon must be wielded two-handed to cause damage to the Target Area. A one-handed strike causes no injury to an Armored Target Area.
to this
Revised BoW wrote:
3.2.2.3. Class 3 (thrusting) Weapons wielded one-handed cause one hit of damage to an Target Area. Class 3 Weapons also cause two hits of damage when wielded two-handed against a Target Area, ignoring any Armor the Target Area may have.


Derail ahead. Just don't reply if you think the following post is irrelevant.

Personally, I would like to see it further changed to completely remove class 3 as a classification and just have all stabs deal "blue" damage regardless of whether or not they're one or two handed.

This would create in increase in stabbing and stabbing weapons which will not only make our combat rules more realistic, it will cause an increase in the use of spears and polearms on the field (the most popular infantry weapon), it will balance the effectiveness of spears and poles with sword and board, it will simplify the rules, you'll hear 100% less "GREE GREE DUBBAGREE DUBBAGREE DUBBAGREE DUBBAGREE" and will make crossgaming for Amtgarders less confusing. Oh, and while all stabbing weapons get a boost in effectiveness, flails lose out. 8)

Class 3 is an artifact that feels out of place with the way our game is growing and evolving. 2 cents.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:36 pm 
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But I love it that I can't get stabbed by S&B douche bags. **** you guys.
Self interest aside, though, you guys are right.
Hit's are hits. This isn't a terible idea. Although it will take us futher from Dag, which is wierd, but not terrible either. But wierd.
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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:58 pm 
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We are different from Dag.

Isn't that the entire point of splitting off and forming your own game? If the only good argument against is not liking being different than Dag, then why bother using anything but the standard Dag rules no matter what they are.

I cross game a lot, and here in Ohio its impossible not to. This change wouldn't be so different that i would have to stop or really even adjust the way i play. How often do i have the opportunity to stab an armored guy anyway. Most of the general population doesn't have armor to begin with.

Out of the people who wear armor, how many people are wearing armor in a place you can effectively stab. Arms and Legs are the most commonly armored location and stabbing someone in the arm and or leg with a sword is stupid rare as it is now.

I fully support green going away completely and having stabs deal blue damage. Its simple, easy, and more realistic imo.


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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 4:45 am 
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I am running with the tangent first. We cross-game fairly regularly with our neighboring Dag group and I don't really want to have different rules, but I would be very strongly in favor of getting rid of the silly distinction between blue/green or class 1/3 damage. I feel the small amount of additional complexity introduced by tracking stab vs. hack limb wounds is still unnecessary and contributes essentially nothing to the safety, playability or realism of our game. Yes I realize changing this will give some additional power to javelins, archers and spearmen, but IMO and from Arnor's experience, this would not really shift the balance that much.

Now to the actual issue being discussed. I like the way Loptr has approached this with the emphasis essentially exclusively being placed on safety and playability as those are the foremost concerns in our sport. I can to some degree understand the realism based logic behind single-handed stabs being more likely to glance off armor, but I really struggle with the fact that a single green/class 3 strike does NO damage and a double green, javelin or arrow goes straight through. Our style of fighting, our most prevalent armors and our primary target areas mostly only approach realism when approximating unarmored combat. Armor, real armor, worked very well. To make armor realistic would, IMHO, really imbalance the game in favor of those wearing armor, which is of course the whole point of armor from a historical perspective. I prefer armor in this game as it is now, lightly rewarded, mostly as a desirable decoration on the field, but it can still make a big difference on the right fighters.

I like allowing single greens/class 3s to damage an armored target area for the sake of simplicity and playability exactly as in Giggles revised BoW version. Going further, though, I too would love to see this generalized to where there is no distinction between blue/green or class 1/3. This means that double green straight through armor would go away, but isn't that adequately balanced by making spearmen able to kill an opponent by stabbing both legs or a leg and an arm?

Really, though, I think this is all just an evil plot by Loptr so he can stab people more effectively.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 6:09 am 
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Alright, so, what we need to happen is:

Playtesting at large Realms and at major regional events. The following options should be explored:

1. One-handed greens do blue damage to armor.
2. One-handed greens do blue damage to armor. Stabbed limbs count towards Death By Dismemberment.
3. One-handed greens do blue damage to armor. Double green no longer exists (i.e., stabs from spears, daggers, and swords all do one hit of damage to armored target areas and one hit of damage to unarmored target areas).
4. One-handed greens do blue damage to armor. Stabbed limbs count towards Death By Dismemberment. Double green no longer exists (i.e., stabs from spears, daggers, and swords all do one hit of damage to armored target areas and one hit of damage to unarmored target areas).

For best results, you'll want to make sure that the field has both a decent amount of armor, a decent number of stabbing blueswords, and a decent number of spears. The least drastic change will be #1 and will have the least noticeable effect on a smaller field. The most drastic change will be #4 and even on a 20 person field (if 4-6 people were in armor, 2-4 people had spears, and at least half of the blues on the field were stab-legal) the differences should be notable.

Go forth! Playtest! Post results!


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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:04 am 
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If you're going to do this we need to also think about changing the double green to a red like dmg. Two hands goes through armor etc., but only for "large" weapons, aka red swords with stabby tips, spears, and red polearms (aka not daggers and blues).

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:05 am 
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Davit wrote:
If you're going to do this we need to also think about changing the double green to a red like dmg. Two hands goes through armor etc., but only for "large" weapons, aka red swords with stabby tips, spears, and red polearms (aka not daggers and blues).


I don't understand. Why?


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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:17 am 
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Safety: Makes it a better idea to keep your spear under control with two hands rather than wildly stabbing out with 1 and having the un-padded part connect with people (not much of an issue but it's still there).
Realisim: Things with more weight behind them, aka a spear thrust will do more dmg against armor than a dagger or rapier. I mean if you connected with a spear in reality and it penetrated at all, you were probably going to die/loose the limb.
Playability: Helps with standardization, it's easier to explain reds/double greens or class 2/3 this way, and would negate the extra classes altogether.

These are all my opinions, but if we do this, which eh I'm crusty and old and like this rule where it is (although I's like to see full face metal helms allowed, azon chain allowed, and a rule against leather glued to tee-shirts being armor but that's another story) I want to do it right and have two handed weapons become a single class rather than trying to have to explain the differences to people.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:32 am 
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In that case, though, Davit, you'd be talking about making it so that shields could be broken with spear thrusts, unless you do some significant rewriting. I feel like we should start off with smaller changes.

But, by all means, please feel free to write up and playtest what you're talking about. It'd be something like, what:

{
- All <4' weapons (Class I) deal 1 point of damage to all target areas, armored or unarmored.
- All weapons 48+" in length (Class II) deal 1 point of damage when swung or thrust one-handed and two points of damage when swung or thrust two-handed.
- Shields can be broken by two Class II strikes, never thrusts.
- Any two limbs wounded is death, by any combination of thrusts or strikes.

Ooooooohh. Actually... that leaves us the option of making ranged weapons (Class IV, bows and thrown javs) still not count for death by dismemberment, if we wanted. Something like:

- Wounded limbs damaged by ranged impacts of Class IV weapons do not count when considering death due to limb wounds.
}

PS: To be clear: This is just another playtest idea. PLEASE don't let me derail this excellent and focused thread. I would be happy to discuss shark maille and other things in PMs or another thread, though, Davit.


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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:28 am 
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Seriously......
I feel double green on "red" weapons should remain. Breaking shields should not happen. A red still has a lot more mass and inertia than a blue. I dislike double green on blues and daggers.

Thank you everybody for staying on topic and having intelligent non emotional based conversation.

Loptr
p.s. Don't listen to Isk. He loves a good arm pit stab. :fingers:

Edit for typos yet again.....

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 4:02 pm 
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Yeah, I wasn't thinking (in my head at least) making thrusting weapons able to break shields. However I still think it is easier to explain a small difference than a large one. Also, the majority of my realm, in addition with me doesn't really want to change (the being old thing and lazy there), so it's not going to be playtested there.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:20 pm 
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Davit wrote:
Also, the majority of my realm, in addition with me doesn't really want to change (the being old thing and lazy there), so it's not going to be playtested there.
Belegarth is the slowest moving major boffer sport there is when it comes to modifying the rules. For also being the youngest, I'm surprised that people are so hesitant when it comes to making changes or even playtesting them. I joined a couple years after the split, but even Dagorhir (and they're ancient) updates their rules annually. Granted our rules are much more compact and streamlined.

Arrakis wrote:
I feel like we should start off with smaller changes.
I completely agree. I think that the initial proposal will have the best chance of going forward so we should concerntrate on discussing and playtesting that. I do believe my revision is the most elegant and simplest way of changing things; it just removes two sentences.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:55 pm 
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One of my guys down here also just brought up a significant point regarding doing away with greens. If we were to do this, would all class one/blue weapons be required to pass for stabbing? I don't like that idea, personally. I don't want to be forced to maintain stabbies on all my swords if I don't want to.

So, on further reflection I think we really still need the concept of stabbing weapons and hacking weapons with their respective weapons check standards, but I don't think we need to make a different sort of damage for stabs versus hacks. For playtesting around here I will see if my realm would be willing to go with Arrakis' option two. The simplest version, option 1, is a nice baby-step, but I'd really like to include stabs toward death by dismemberment.
Arrakis wrote:
2. One-handed greens do blue damage to armor. Stabbed limbs count towards Death By Dismemberment.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:06 am 
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Requiring weapons to be stabby would be the most effective way to quash this at all.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:54 am 
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Whatever is laying around.
Except that not everyone wants the hassle of maintaining stabbing tips. Trying to require everyone to have stab legal weapons just isn't going to happen.

(Besides, on a minor side note: historically not all swords were stabbing, let alone clubs and so forth.)


Edit: * Isk - Oops, my bad. I misinterpreted Davit's post. That's what I get for posting with a fever.

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Last edited by Rasheab on Sun Sep 26, 2010 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:21 am 
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Rasheab, that's what Davit was saying. If the new rule were to force everything to be stabby it doesn't have a snowball's chance of succeeding. So where we have a working system for testing and regulating stabbing weapons, doing away with class 3/green would not be productive. We just want to minorly tweak the type of damage they do.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:58 pm 
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i would like to see

peirce and slash dammage be the same on people, not shields.

i would like to see arrows be the same as single green dammage, not pierce armor, but 2 limbs = death, so it evens out some what.

leave the single and double call, it works great.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:03 pm 
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There's too many people that arch for arrows to go to single green damage IMO. Too many people would be up in arms about that change. 2 limbs = death is a good idea though, takes out the whole "this arm is stabbed, this one is hacked" remembering.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:20 pm 
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Didn't the 2 limbs = death thing just go to a vote in the last year or two, and get shot down miserably? Don't get me wrong, I freakin' love the idea, but I don't think the realm reps have even changed much since then, let alone the whole populace.

As for single green doing damage against armor, I've yet to hear a really good argument against it. All that protection does is let you completely ignore what should be a fundamental part of our combat system. This change would be excellent.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:34 pm 
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More importantly, it would get rid of people having to ask about how a leg is injured. There's no visual distinction on that, like arms.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:20 pm 
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Kasada wrote:
Most importantly in my mind, allowing stabbed limbs to count towards death by dismemberment would get rid of people having to ask about how a leg is injured. There's no visual distinction on that, like arms.


Be very specific, to the point of pedantry, in this thread, please. Slagar posted before you and was arguing against trying to do what you're suggesting due to unlikeliness of such a proposal passing.

For Reference:
---------------------------

Current Playtesting Options:
(# - Rules changes)
1. Green Hurts Armor - One-handed greens do blue damage to armor.
2. One-Handed Green = Blue - One-handed greens do blue damage to armor. Stabbed limbs count towards Death By Dismemberment.
3. Hurts Armor, No Doubles - One-handed greens do blue damage to armor. Double green no longer exists (i.e., stabs from spears, daggers, and swords all do one hit of damage to armored target areas and one hit of damage to unarmored target areas).
4. All Greens = Blues - One-handed greens do blue damage to armor. Stabbed limbs count towards Death By Dismemberment. Double green no longer exists (i.e., stabs from spears, daggers, and swords all do one hit of damage to armored target areas and one hit of damage to unarmored target areas).
5. The Davit Plan - All <4' weapons (Class I and short Class III) deal 1 point of damage to all target areas, armored or unarmored. All weapons 48+" in length (Class II and long Class III) deal 1 point of damage when swung or thrust one-handed and two points of damage when swung or thrust two-handed. Shields can be broken by two Class II strikes, never thrusts. Any two limbs wounded is death, by any combination of thrusts or strikes. Wounded limbs damaged by ranged impacts of Class IV weapons do not count when considering death due to limb wounds.
6. The Bo Plan - One-handed greens do blue damage to armor. Stabbed limbs count towards Death By Dismemberment. Ranged impacts of Class IV weapons do one point of damage to target areas.

Groups Currently Playtesting:
(# - Realm/Unit/Group/Event - Playtesting Option #)
1 -

(step up!)


Last edited by Arrakis on Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:47 pm 
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amendmant to the bo plan, i am talking about a poinbt of dammage is a point. so arrows do count toward limb total. one point of dammage, is one point, 2 is 2 points, shields are broken by (qty) 2 swung 2's only. armor offers an additional hit to that location.

this is the simplest system, apart from making it all one point dammage, which is not really a good idea.

i will test my ideas here in rhun.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:59 pm 
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Only problem with your plan Bo (that I can see) is with archers calling their shots. They don't know if it hit for that first point of armor or second hit that would disable the limb and/or kill the person.

Also, would helms be immune to rocks/arrows or just offer the one extra point?

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:52 pm 
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Lol, of course I'm going to get a plan named after me I don't want. I was explaining the most likely way, imho, such a thing would pass. I understand that something like this would decrease the confusability of new people, however it would come at the expense of making things less silly. Now dont get me wrong, there is a time and place for everything, but when we are in the middle of unit/realm battles where people are annoying the **** out of heralds by being duchebags, someone running around with no arms reminds EVERYONE that this is a game, a game where we all dress up and act like fools by hitting each other with padded sticks.

Getting to Thorondor's question, the helms should remain immune imho for the simple reason that helms look amazing, and we need to (should) encourage them more, and that ruling helps to do so, even if just a little.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:01 pm 
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Ahem, changes in bold:

2.1. Offensive Equipment is any item that can score one or more combat hits. There are four classifications of Offensive Equipment, hereafter called Weapons.

2.1.3. (Class 3) Missile Weapon.
2.1.4. (Class 4) Head-only missile Weapon.

3.2.2.3. Class 3 (missile) Weapons cause two hits of Injury to a Target Area. A Class 3 or 4 Weapon striking an Armored portion of the Head causes no Injury.

3.2.2.4. Class 4 (Head only missile) cause 1 hit of Injury to an unarmored Head area.

3.2.3. The Head is an illegal Target Area for Class 1 and 2 Weapons. The Head is a legal Target Area for Class 3 and 4 Weapons.

3.4.1.5. Two disabled limb Target Areas (Arms and/or Legs) cause Death. Limbs injured with Class 3 Weapons do not count towards this total.

3.4.2.2. Disabled Arm - A disabled Arm may not hold anything. If the Arm is disabled by a Class 1 or 2 Weapon then place Arm behind back. If the Arm is disabled by a Class 3 Weapon, leave Arm dangling limply at side.


3.4.3.1. All subsequent strikes with Class 3 Weapon on the same Target Area previously injured only by a Class 3 Weapon are ignored.


3.5.1. Shields can be destroyed by two solid swings from a Class 2 Weapon. Subsequent strikes to a destroyed Shield continue into the Target Area on which the Shield is worn.


3.6.4. Combatants with Missile Weapons (Type 3, bow/arrows) may not initiate Grapples or be Grappled.

3.8.2. A half draw or throw for Class 3 Weapons under a range of 15 feet is required.


3.8.6.1. All Class 3 or 4 missiles besides arrows may be blocked by any means that keeps the missile away from a Target Area.


1.1.8. Javelin - Thrown Class 3 Weapon.

1.1.9. Archery - Class 3 Weapons including bows, crossbows, arrows, and bolts.

1.1.10. Rocks - Class 4 Weapons.



1.2.3. Class 3 and 4 Weapons are marked in a manner to indicate a Marshal has inspected them.
1.2.4 Stabbing Weapons must be marked with green tape to easily identify if stabbing or not.


1.4.3. Stabbing Weapons must conform to the following:
1.4.3.1. If the Weapon is stabbing only, it has no weight restriction.

1.4.3.2. The maximum handle length for stabbing only Weapons is 2/3 of its overall length.

1.4.3.3. If the Weapon is stabbing only, it may not have a yellow cover.


1.4.5. Flails must conform to the following:
1.4.5.7 May not be stabbing.

1.4.6. Double-ended Weapons must conform to all of the following:

1.4.6.2. Double-ended Weapons must have a minimum of 18 inches in length of padding covering each end in a cylindrical fashion. Both striking surfaces of this weapon must follow stabbing Weapon standards for a Double-ended Weapon to be legal.

1.4.6.3. Regardless of length, a Double-ended Weapon is a Class 1 Weapon.


1.4.7. Javelins must conform to all of the following:
1.4.7.1. Must also pass as a stabbing only Weapon.


1.4.9. Class 4 Weapons have a minimum diameter of 4 inches and are constructed entirely of foam, cloth and tape (coreless).

tl;dr = Class 3 is now class 4, class 4 is now class 5. Stabby weapons must be marked with green tape.

Fixed wall of text.

Eliminats green reference, yet keeps the green tape so blues and reds can be reconized as stabby or non stabby. No more green damage = simple.


Last edited by badgremlin on Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:33 pm 
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badgremlin: That's impossible to read. Thanks for bolding the changes, but it's still too much text. Also, we need to keep Class III separate for checking purposes.

Bo: Of course damage counts as damage, but I thought you didn't want limbs disabled by archery and javelins to count for DbD. Am I wrong?

Davit: I can strike that plan, if you prefer. Also, I really don't think we need ridiculous crap on the field to remind people that we're playing a game. I think ridiculous crap just makes us look bad to outsiders and potential gamers/fighters.


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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:18 pm 
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The EASIEST solution in my mind is to do the following. (This may have already been proposed, so bear with me.)

1) Eliminate green damage.
2) Make all weapons 4ft and greater "Red/Class 2".
3) Distinguish that shields may only be broken with a "slash".

Remember, stabs still have to have "sufficient force".

Javalins are an interesting case. You would need to make them "class 1 when held and class 3 when thrown". Mildly confusing, but not THAT hard.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:00 am 
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Angmarth wrote:
The EASIEST solution in my mind is to do the following. (This may have already been proposed, so bear with me.)

1) Eliminate green damage.
2) Make all weapons 4ft and greater "Red/Class 2".
3) Distinguish that shields may only be broken with a "slash".

Remember, stabs still have to have "sufficient force".

Javalins are an interesting case. You would need to make them "class 1 when held and class 3 when thrown". Mildly confusing, but not THAT hard.


3.5.1. Shields can be destroyed by two solid swings from a Class 2 Weapon. Subsequent strikes to a destroyed Shield continue into the Target Area on which the Shield is worn.



1.2.3. Class 3 and 4 Weapons are marked in a manner to indicate a Marshal has inspected them.
1.2.4 Stabbing Weapons must be marked with green tape to easily identify if stabbing or not.

1.4.3. Stabbing Weapons must conform to the following:
1.4.3.1. If the Weapon is stabbing only, it has no weight restriction.

1.4.3.2. The maximum handle length for stabbing only Weapons is 2/3 of its overall length.

1.4.3.3. If the Weapon is stabbing only, it may not have a yellow cover.

1.4.7. Javelins must conform to all of the following:
1.4.7.1. Must also pass as a stabbing Weapon.
 (1.4.3)


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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:56 am 
Hero
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Thanks BG. With that rules statement shown, there isn't any reason NOT to simply call spears Class 2 weapons since the distinction is already there. The only thing to do is remove "green" damage. Remember, you still need sufficient force so light stabs won't count.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:56 am 
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Angmarth wrote:
The EASIEST solution in my mind is to do the following. (This may have already been proposed, so bear with me.)

1) Eliminate green damage.
2) Make all weapons 4ft and greater "Red/Class 2".
3) Distinguish that shields may only be broken with a "slash".

Remember, stabs still have to have "sufficient force".

Javalins are an interesting case. You would need to make them "class 1 when held and class 3 when thrown". Mildly confusing, but not THAT hard.


Problem with that is with checking standards. How do we regulate a spear if we call it a class II weapon? It shouldn't have a min weight, yet it will under such a proposal. The way to do what you're talking about is either The Davit Plan or a subset thereof. Anything you'd change about the Davit Plan?


For Reference:
---------------------------

Current Playtesting Options:
(# - Rules changes)
1. Green Hurts Armor - One-handed greens do blue damage to armor.
2. One-Handed Green = Blue - One-handed greens do blue damage to armor. Stabbed limbs count towards Death By Dismemberment.
3. Hurts Armor, No Doubles - One-handed greens do blue damage to armor. Double green no longer exists (i.e., stabs from spears, daggers, and swords all do one hit of damage to armored target areas and one hit of damage to unarmored target areas).
4. All Greens = Blues - One-handed greens do blue damage to armor. Stabbed limbs count towards Death By Dismemberment. Double green no longer exists (i.e., stabs from spears, daggers, and swords all do one hit of damage to armored target areas and one hit of damage to unarmored target areas).
5. The Davit Plan - All <4' weapons (Class I and short Class III) deal 1 point of damage to all target areas, armored or unarmored. All weapons 48+" in length (Class II and long Class III) deal 1 point of damage when swung or thrust one-handed and two points of damage when swung or thrust two-handed. Shields can be broken by two Class II strikes, never thrusts. Any two limbs wounded is death, by any combination of thrusts or strikes. Wounded limbs damaged by ranged impacts of Class IV weapons do not count when considering death due to limb wounds.
6. The Bo Plan - One-handed greens do blue damage to armor. Stabbed limbs count towards Death By Dismemberment. Ranged impacts of Class IV weapons do one point of damage to target areas.

Groups Currently Playtesting:
(# - Realm/Unit/Group/Event - Playtesting Option #)
1 -

(step up!)


Last edited by Arrakis on Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:43 am 
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The Davit plan is my favorite. We already play 2 limbs is death in St. Louis, and it doesn't negatively impact the game at all. In fact, I would think it actually is a minor improvement (being moderately safer, moderately more realistic, and having no real affect on playability). I would think you might (for KISS sake) revert javelins to their original "missile only" state. (At least I think I remember that used to be the rule.) Then you would simply have 3 classes of weapons.

Class 1 (12 oz and less than 48 inches)
Class 2 (24oz and greater than 48 inches)
Class 3 (Missiles - Arrows and Javelins)

Any 2 limbs would be death.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:18 am 
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CHECKING. You can't pass a thrust-only Class II under your proposal if it weighs less than 24 oz and that's only the beginning of the problems. We need to still be able to mark whether a weapon passed for stabbing or not. We can't do that without a separate stabbing Class to check and tape.

Plus, why would you want to try to pass something like reverting javs to throw-only? That's never going to pass.

Are you going to playtest anything?


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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:20 am 
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Wait, if we only have three classes of weapons how is there any distinction between class I and II weapons that are capable of stabbing and those that are not (and I see how you neatly slipped no rocks in your omnibus revision ;) )? To have only three classes of weapons you have to either a) have subclasses (e.g 1.a non-stabbing, 1.b stabbing) which are checked and marked differently or b) require all weapons to pass as stabbing. To me, it makes more sense to keep a stabbing classification so we can just wrap green tape around weapons that are capable of stabbing and say it's class 1 and 3 rather than say this a class 1.b or 2.b so it can stab as well. And seriously, make javs thrown only? Why?

An Tir Dearg has approved switching to Option 2 for playtesting here in our realm. I realize we are not the oldest realm around, but we consistently pull about 30 fighters a week to practice and regularly attend the events in our neighborhood. Our Realm Council unanimously approved this action and is excited to move in this direction.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:33 am 
Hero
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Arrakis wrote:
CHECKING. You can't pass a thrust-only Class II under your proposal if it weighs less than 24 oz and that's only the beginning of the problems. We need to still be able to mark whether a weapon passed for stabbing or not. We can't do that without a separate stabbing Class to check and tape.

Plus, why would you want to try to pass something like reverting javs to throw-only? That's never going to pass.

Are you going to playtest anything?


You are reading me correct Arrakis. Who has a class 2 weapon under 24 ounces? Seriously? It would be much simpler (KISS) to make all class 2 weapons required to be 24 oz. I don't see how that is a big problem. Will javelins being missile only make/break the game? There is no real effect on javelins being turned into missiles only. When they became stabbing/throwing there wasn't a huge influx, I don't there would be a huge evacuation if it were reversed. Simply put a neon orange ribbon on the handle, to show stabbing if you need something visual. In St. Louis we have already play tested allowing reds to do damage to armor when used one handed. It made spears more effective, but otherwise had no effect on combat.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:47 am 
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Angmarth wrote:
In St. Louis we have already play tested allowing reds to do damage to armor when used one handed. It made spears more effective, but otherwise had no effect on combat.


Did you mean green do damage to armor one handed? Reds already do blue damage 1 handed.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:54 am 
The Nightbringer
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arrakis, i am talking about weapons doing one point or 2 points.

1 point weapons: arrows, javs, single thrusts, blues.
2 point weapons: reds, double thrusts

arrows and javs are still head legal, armored portion of head is still protected from missles.

any 2 limbs is death, any body is death.

armor give the area an additional point of dammage.

qty 2 hits form a swung 2pt, with both hands on weapon, breaks shield as currently done.

one handed from a 2pt weapon is a 1 pt weapon.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:24 pm 
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Angmarth wrote:
You are reading me correct Arrakis. Who has a class 2 weapon under 24 ounces? Seriously? It would be much simpler (KISS) to make all class 2 weapons required to be 24 oz. I don't see how that is a big problem.


This will also require spears and daggers to have 2/3 of their length padded, to pass for striking, etc. You okay with that?

Again: If you're pushing for drastic changes like this, are you willing to playtest it? All of it together, I mean.


bo1 wrote:
arrakis, i am talking about weapons doing one point or 2 points.

1 point weapons: arrows, javs, single thrusts, blues.
2 point weapons: reds, double thrusts

arrows and javs are still head legal, armored portion of head is still protected from missles.

any 2 limbs is death, any body is death.

armor give the area an additional point of dammage.

qty 2 hits form a swung 2pt, with both hands on weapon, breaks shield as currently done.

one handed from a 2pt weapon is a 1 pt weapon.


Bo: Okay. Modified your plan of changes to be summarized as:

6. The Bo Plan - One-handed greens do blue damage to armor. Stabbed limbs count towards Death By Dismemberment. Ranged impacts of Class IV weapons do one point of damage to target areas.


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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:29 pm 
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I don't know why we're trying to eliminate the green class. Fundimentally greens are constructed, and tested differently from blue, and reds. I think its actually easier to KEEP the green class, and just modify the rules for it. Change short stabbys to "single green" all the time and keep the polearms able to do double green. Then change how green affect DBD and armor. Two sill goes through, and one stab does a point. Its also important to remember that Armor never atually takes damage, its the target behind the armor that takes 1/2 damage.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:46 pm 
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Seriously......
I am stoked by all the good conversation going on.

I am also concerned.

There is a lot of pork being added to my bill. I am infavor of alot of the information being discussed. However, I want the issues of blue stabbies doing blue damage. Everything else convolutes the issue at hand.

If there is going to be proposals on modifying green damage then lets submit that too as its OWN proposal. If we are removing pierce, let it be its own proposal. If we are going to nerf rocks, let that be its own proposal too.

Please separate all the great ideas into their own proposals. A stab to armor doesn’t require the whole ruleset to be tweaked.

FROM:
3.2.2.3. Class 3 (thrusting) Weapons wielded one-handed cause one hit of damage to an unarmored Target Area. Class 3 Weapons also cause two hits of damage when wielded two-handed against a Target Area, ignoring any Armor the Target Area may have. If the Target Area is armored, the Weapon must be wielded two-handed to cause damage to the Target Area. A one-handed strike causes no injury to an Armored Target Area.

TO:
3.2.2.3. Class 3 (thrusting) Weapons wielded one-handed cause one hit of damage to Target Area. Class 3 Weapons also cause two hits of damage when wielded two-handed against a Target Area, ignoring any Armor the Target Area may have.

There may need to be a piece specifically outing flails as class 3?

Please keep each piece of pork as its own topic for the WC.

Loptr

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:59 pm 
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Seriously......
Sir Par wrote:
I don't know why we're trying to eliminate the green class. Fundimentally greens are constructed, and tested differently from blue, and reds. I think its actually easier to KEEP the green class, and just modify the rules for it. Change short stabbys to "single green" all the time and keep the polearms able to do double green.
*snip*


QFT

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:36 pm 
Hero
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Thorondor wrote:
Angmarth wrote:
In St. Louis we have already play tested allowing reds to do damage to armor when used one handed. It made spears more effective, but otherwise had no effect on combat.


Did you mean green do damage to armor one handed? Reds already do blue damage 1 handed.


Bad wording on my part. What I meant to say is that we have already tried treating Spears as normal Class 2 (RED) weapons, instead of the normal green distinction.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:53 pm 
Hero
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Loptr wrote:
Sir Par wrote:
I don't know why we're trying to eliminate the green class. Fundimentally greens are constructed, and tested differently from blue, and reds. I think its actually easier to KEEP the green class, and just modify the rules for it. Change short stabbys to "single green" all the time and keep the polearms able to do double green.
*snip*


QFT


Why would you keep the green class? If you are making 1h green the same as 1h blue, then logically green = blue. Except, as we both know, green and blue have separate construction requirements. If you are eliminating the difference between green/blue strikes, then I think you have to (for KISS sake) to eliminate the short green completely. Why bother even having it? Simply make the minimum length of ANY weapon to be 18 inches and call it a day.

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 Post subject: Re: single green damage to armor
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:58 pm 
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Seriously......
Angmarth wrote:
Why would you keep the green class? If you are making 1h green the same as 1h blue, then logically green = blue. Except, as we both know, green and blue have separate construction requirements. If you are eliminating the difference between green/blue strikes, then I think you have to (for KISS sake) to eliminate the short green completely. Why bother even having it? Simply make the minimum length of ANY weapon to be 18 inches and call it a day.


Coming from Amtgard where I have fought numerous So. Texas pipe swinging *'s. There is no additional "stab tip" requirement, everything passes as long as you dont feel core. I have always found the Bel rule on stabbing a bit onerous. I am totaly in favor of your thought.
However, if we are going to require enhanced stabbing construction I think we need to keep green. Not everyone is going to want to build greens onto blues. Hence my agreement with Par.

Therfore following the KISS concept I find Par's suggestion to be cleanest from the stand point of stab on blue doing one point. Still requiring green tape etc. It simply deals damage to armor at one point.

Loptr

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