Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

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Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Loptr » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:09 am

In another thread a lot of conversation came up about Green and wether or not it should remain, be modified etc.

Please use this thread to discuss and debate.

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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Thorondor » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:13 am

Until it is common (nationally) to stab with unmodified blues, green as a weapon class should stay. Also, don't forget about spears, they are ONLY stabby so we don't want them built the same as a tip on a blue sword.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:24 am

I don't think we need green damage, only the green weapon type. So that standards can still be applied to weapons that stab, without having a seperate type of damage invloved with them. All you'd have to note is that 1 hand stabs deal blue damage, 2 hand stabs deal red damage, excepting shields, which cannot be broken by stabs.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Sir Par » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:26 am

Soo that muddles the mixture too much, and would add possibly confusing rules. What we need to do is just MODIFY what green damage means. Make it equal to a blue one handed, and leave it alone two handed.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Arrakis » Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:20 pm

We don't call anything "green damage" officially. Greens are specified in the rules to do no damage vs. armored target areas. It's an easy fix to make them do one point of damage vs. armored target areas.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Isk » Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:02 am

It really is a very easy fix. We don't make anything more muddled or confusing, we just eliminate the currently somewhat confusing distinction between damage done by 'stabbing' weapons and damage from 'hacking' weapons. In the other thread I posted exactly what would have to be changed in the Book of War. It's a simple matter of striking out seven strings of words so I will repost it here:
Book of War wrote:3.2.2.3. Class 3 (thrusting) Weapons wielded one-handed cause one hit of damage to any unarmored Target Area. Class 3 Weapons also cause two hits of damage when wielded two-handed against a Target Area, ignoring any Armor the Target Area may have. If the Target Area is armored, the Weapon must be wielded two-handed to cause damage to the Target Area. A one-handed strike causes no injury to an Armored Target Area.
Book of War wrote:3.4.1.5. Two disabled limb Target Areas (Arms and/or Legs) cause Death. Limbs injured with Class 3 and Class 4 Weapons do not count towards this total.
Book of War wrote:3.4.2.2. Disabled Arm - A disabled Arm may not hold anything. If the Arm is disabled by a Class 1 or 2 Weapon then place Arm behind back. If the Arm is disabled by a Class 3 or 4 Weapon, leave Arm dangling limply at side.
Book of War wrote:3.4.3.1. All subsequent strikes with Class 3 or 4 Weapon on the same Target Area previously injured only by a Class 3 or 4 Weapon are ignored.
3.4.3.2. All subsequent strikes to a disabled arm an Arm disabled by a Class 1 or 2 weapon pass through to the Torso.
3.4.3.3. All subsequent strikes to a disabled Leg disabled by a Class 1 or 2 weapon are ignored.

On a playtesting note, we just got through with practice and the new 1h green == 1h blue system worked very well. We had about 40 different fighters take the field tonight, about 10-12 of which have attended less than 6 practices.

Personally, I jacked up my shoulder this weekend so I was heralding all night. I think it marginally sped up the game and on a few occasions made my job easier because two limbs was two limbs, period. We usually have 2-4 guys on the field in armor, but tonight we only had one so, unsurprisingly, the change made no noticeable difference. Teaching the rules was much quicker and simpler. "A strike to the body is death. Two strikes to the limbs is death. A hit with an arrow, rock or a javelin to the head is death." So simple. I think whatever happens with the WC we will probably be sticking to this rules set for local practices.

Edited to include Arrakis' corrections.
Last edited by Isk on Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Magpie Saegar » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:12 am

I've effectively been doing that with my realm for a year now. Every once in a while someone will read the rules and ask about stabbing and I'll explain it, but 80% of our group or more still assumes that stabbing does the same damage as swinging. I like the simplicity of it, and it really makes almost no change in game play.

Though I really should make it official or not so that we're all completely on the same page.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby The Great Gigsby » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:45 am

Isk wrote:The perfect system
Thank you so much for spelling this out so simply.

I would want to go over the BoW a few more times with a fine toothed comb, but this is what I expect to see in the future. 2 disabled limbs = death is so much easier to understand and herald and more playable / realistic.

I do think class 3 is necessary for the moment since there are so many differing opinions on what is appropriate for stabbing tech. And I am very much in favor of taking baby steps overall in order to make sure that our rules remain pefectly balanced. I think that pushing for 1 handed thrusts to do 1 point of damage is a very good start.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Loptr » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:47 am

As a cross gamer I have always found the pierce rule to be bizarre.

Personally I have always taken pierce as 1 or 2 limbs = death damage. This is how a majority of SLC does it too.

I think it would streamline the ruleset to nerf pierce but I may be jacking this thread on green damage.

+1 to what Giggles said.

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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Forkbeard » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:51 am

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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Slagar » Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:42 pm

+1. You guys have it. I'd really, really like to see this change happen.

Now, pass it in a vote. Pretty please? We tried like two years ago, and it went down in flames. Hell, here's the vote thread:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=28237

And here's the old discussion thread:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=27748
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Arrakis » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:11 pm

Isk: That modification does not cover dealing a point vs. armored target areas. Since you said "1h green = blue" I assume you want that included. You need to strike more in the first rule and, for clarity, add a "y".

Book of War wrote:3.2.2.3. Class 3 (thrusting) Weapons wielded one-handed cause one hit of damage to any unarmoredTarget Area. Class 3 Weapons also cause two hits of damage when wielded two-handed against a Target Area, ignoring any Armor the Target Area may have. If the Target Area is armored, the Weapon must be wielded two-handed to cause damage to the Target Area. A one-handed strike causes no injury to an Armored Target Area.


If that's not what you wanted, ignore me. I'm less interested and less invested in this change (Stabs count for DbD) than in the other (1green does 1pt vs. armor).
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Isk » Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:11 pm

Thanks Arrakis, you correctly read my mind. Looking at it, I'm not sure how I managed to not strike those pieces. I will go with 'a' rather then 'any', though, to make it parallel to the wording in 3.2.2.1.

For the sake of putting it all in one place, I'll edit my post above with Arrakis' observation.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby The Lost Celt » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:02 pm

I wouldn't mind seeing a single handed green thrust delivered to an enemy delivering one hit of damage on a two hit target...

In truth I've seen people deliver what would be considered minimum red shots one handed that count as blue damage who have the same range as I, but one single handed green doesn't affect the armor at all (we're talking sliding shot here, which technically doesn't count as both hands on weapons but will still make the armour wielder groan and double over if you do it right)

Where it get sketchy is I'd be more inclined to welcome a platemail version as proof against thrusts as opposed to the current chainmail/leather/hybrid version just to see more players of that caliber on the field, once again YMMV
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Elebrim » Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:16 am

I posted this same item in the other thread, but I want to make sure this is everywhere it needs to be.



Here is the WC Gen. Discussion thread on the last time this rules change was attempted: http://board.belegarth.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=29361&start=0.

Relevant to this conversation is Juicer's comments on how he could effectively decimate shield walls with one handed stabs, and how arrows would also become more deadly because of the loss of a piercing vs. slashing distinction.

Juicer, last time we had this fun talk, wrote:
Arrakis wrote:Juicer, what do you think would make a 10' spear so much better under the new rules? I wipe 8'+ spears with NO armor on all the time. And if spears ARE better under the new rules... isn't that historically appropriate?

Also, how does that overpower archers? If they can still shoot you in the armored torso or unarmored head and kill you from 50 feet by missing you completely and then hollering at you that you're dead, they really can't get much more powerful.



Allow me to take this one at a time.

The 10' spear is merely so I can reach even more people to brutally murder. It would work with an eight footer too. If this passed all I have to do is continually pool-cue stab legs up and down the line until everyone is DEAD. All the shieldmen on my side have to do is block for me and occasionally throw a half-assed shot to open up another leg for me. I can see it now: Bam. I stab a greave five people down. "armor". bam. I stab it again. Legged. He puts his back leg up and I just repeat the procedure or stab the unarmored area that is now open to me. He's dead. All of this is terribly easy and I don't even have to open myself up because they're all single green shots. I'm pretty sure you're familiar with spearwork and know how fast you could do this.

As for historically accurate, I believe it goes something like this: Safety, PLAYABILITY, Realism. In that order. These rules would nerf armor and cheese the hell out of spears. And bows. Speaking of....

Bows. Can't get much more powerful you say? With the current rules, you get shot in the arm, you can still be effective (and you have a one hit shield of sorts). You can also use said arm to block further shots at you. I see that one used all the time by non-shield users, and it works. Again, PLAYABILITY. Why fix what isn't broken? Wasn't your original intent behind this to be able to conceal armor? Well you've ditched that and this rule change now looks a lot like the one WE JUST DISCUSSED. Maybe it wasn't worded to your satisfaction, but the same intent was behind it. Someone could have easily re-worded it. Nobody did. It got shot down then, and I bet if you proposed this one, it'll get shot down now.


For the record, I still agree with the quoted text above. And I still think this kind of rule change is a bad idea for Belegarth.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Arrakis » Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:07 am

This IS the place for that quote. The other thread is about green v. armor.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Sir Par » Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:42 pm

One handed green should do damage against armored opponents, the rest of this is completely unessecary.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Isk » Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:02 pm

1h green damages armor may be the place to start with the WC, but 1h green = 1h blue for all damage makes more sense to me and we'll continue play testing and find out if it really does unbalance the game. Juicer did an excellent job of painting a picture where this would horribly unbalance the game in favor of pokey long range things, but in practice I don't see this actually being the case.

Angmarth, are there a lot more spears and arrows on your field as a result of always taking 1h green == 1h blue? Do spears just tear shield lines apart? I am very interested to hear what comes from the other groups playtesting, especially larger events like Rhun's Closer coming up.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Angmarth » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:39 am

Let me be clear, when we did our playtest we allowed 1h stabs from GREAT (4 ft. and over) weapons to count as blue. It didn't really affect leg shots, as you still have to have sufficient force. The place it came in with greater effectiveness was with body shots that got through with one hand. We have no reusable missiles, so arrows are already limited. Depending on how many people are on the field, we sometimes limit them farther by restricting the number of arrows you can carry.

Something that would be more of a compromise would be, stabs are equal to slashes, BUT metal armor is immune to stabs. Something everyone forgets is this: You still need to have sufficient force. It is VERY hard to get a sufficient force stab. Much more difficult than a sufficient force swing.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Turin » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:54 am

Angmarth wrote: It is VERY hard to get a sufficient force stab. Much more difficult than a sufficient force swing.

I disagree. If you develop the right technique & timing, sufficient force stabs with one handed weapons can become the norm in you repertoire of shots. Are they more difficult to land than sufficient force swings? Arguably, yes. Are they "very hard" to land? No, not really. Now, if you were referring to making sufficient force stabs only with great weapons, then yes, of course; that part of your post was unclear about which type you were referring to.
Additionally, I believe Arrakis might agree with me, having been VERY easily stabbed by him at 'Geddon.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Angmarth » Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:12 pm

It took some time, but I did some searching. I found someone who did a few measurements on fencers. This quote is from the article:

Ten fencers have participated in the study. They were from 18 to 20 years old and their antropological parameters were similar. All of them were male foil fencers from the same sport club. All of them were right-handed, with the same qualification, with the similar style of fencing. They successful in the national championship both individually and in teams. We chose this group because this way we could study the details of lunge on a homogeneous sample. This was necessary for letting the different kinetic elements and kinematic parameters be identifiable and comparable. During the study we identified some of the kinematic parameters of lunge. These were the followings: displacement, period of time, average velocity, highest velocity. We studied how these elements depend on the type of combinations of the movements. The studied combinations were the following: simple lunge, step forward-lunge, jump forward-lunge, step backwards-lunge, jump backwards-lunge. We asked the fencers at the execution of foot works to cany out the task as if being in real combat.
The measurement has been made at the Department of Biomechanics, Hungarian University of Physical Education. We used a measurement system developed by SELSPOT AB (Sweden) for these measurements.


There was a chart included where the BEST velocity was 2885 mm/s for a thrust. This converts to .11 mph (please check my math), which is a far cry from the speed of a tennis player swinging a racket in excess of 70+ mph. (According to the U of I physics dept.) Where a stab works in the REAL world is that your surface area that you strike with is infinitely smaller than that of a bludgeoning weapon, which increases your pressure astronomically if your weapon is literally a point. In our universe we are striking with a surface area of something like 8 or so units on a 1h swing and 1 or so units on a 1h stab. Meaning that you have to swing 8 times faster than you stab to get the same pressure (force per unit area). Even if you have a terminal velocity of a foam weapon around 25 mph, you still are in excess of 200 times the amount of pressure exerted by a stab. Even if my math was off by a factor of 10, you would still be 20 times greater... a number much larger than the 8 to 1 ratio I think we probably have. I stand by the fact it is not only EASIER to land a sufficient force strike, it is down right difficult to land a sufficient force stab.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Arrakis » Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:14 pm

Angmarth wrote:It took some time, but I did some searching. I found someone who did a few measurements on fencers. This quote is from the article:

Ten fencers have participated in the study. They were from 18 to 20 years old and their antropological parameters were similar. All of them were male foil fencers from the same sport club. All of them were right-handed, with the same qualification, with the similar style of fencing. They successful in the national championship both individually and in teams. We chose this group because this way we could study the details of lunge on a homogeneous sample. This was necessary for letting the different kinetic elements and kinematic parameters be identifiable and comparable. During the study we identified some of the kinematic parameters of lunge. These were the followings: displacement, period of time, average velocity, highest velocity. We studied how these elements depend on the type of combinations of the movements. The studied combinations were the following: simple lunge, step forward-lunge, jump forward-lunge, step backwards-lunge, jump backwards-lunge. We asked the fencers at the execution of foot works to cany out the task as if being in real combat.
The measurement has been made at the Department of Biomechanics, Hungarian University of Physical Education. We used a measurement system developed by SELSPOT AB (Sweden) for these measurements.


There was a chart included where the BEST velocity was 2885 mm/s for a thrust. This converts to .11 mph (please check my math), which is a far cry from the speed of a tennis player swinging a racket in excess of 70+ mph. (According to the U of I physics dept.) Where a stab works in the REAL world is that your surface area that you strike with is infinitely smaller than that of a bludgeoning weapon, which increases your pressure astronomically if your weapon is literally a point. In our universe we are striking with a surface area of something like 8 or so units on a 1h swing and 1 or so units on a 1h stab. Meaning that you have to swing 8 times faster than you stab to get the same pressure (force per unit area). Even if you have a terminal velocity of a foam weapon around 25 mph, you still are in excess of 200 times the amount of pressure exerted by a stab. Even if my math was off by a factor of 10, you would still be 20 times greater... a number much larger than the 8 to 1 ratio I think we probably have. I stand by the fact it is not only EASIER to land a sufficient force strike, it is down right difficult to land a sufficient force stab.


Angmarth, it's just not the case that it's more difficult to stab with sufficient force. You're using basically high school physics to attempt to describe a very complex tissue interaction best described through the use of impact dynamics. Their study (just looked it up) was purely about the speeds of these lunges and never discussed impacts. Additionally, the nature of the kinematics of a swing (more joints in actuation, rotational movement, moment applied far from impact point...) and a stab (straight line motion, force in line with impact...) cause them to act very differently in impact, as anyone who has ever really jacked a guy up with a stabbing tip on a bluesword will tell you.

I stab people hard enough that they make The Noise on a regular basis. It's PLENTY hard, even with a marine foam stabbing tip with some open cell on it for friendliness (like on my 19oz 'bat). Ask Peter or Bo to stab you some time. You'll see what i mean.

It's certainly harder to land a one-handed stab on a fighter, in that you can't just throw it anywhere you please and, if nothing stops it, it should be solid, the way a strike works, but that doesn't make achieving sufficient force with a stab any more difficult.

PS: This thread is not about splitting armor into a two-tiered system of Metal vs. Other.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Angmarth » Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:04 pm

Arrakis wrote:Angmarth, it's just not the case that it's more difficult to stab with sufficient force. You're using basically high school physics to attempt to describe a very complex tissue interaction best described through the use of impact dynamics. Their study (just looked it up) was purely about the speeds of these lunges and never discussed impacts. Additionally, the nature of the kinematics of a swing (more joints in actuation, rotational movement, moment applied far from impact point...) and a stab (straight line motion, force in line with impact...) cause them to act very differently in impact, as anyone who has ever really jacked a guy up with a stabbing tip on a bluesword will tell you.

I stab people hard enough that they make The Noise on a regular basis. It's PLENTY hard, even with a marine foam stabbing tip with some open cell on it for friendliness (like on my 19oz 'bat). Ask Peter or Bo to stab you some time. You'll see what i mean.

It's certainly harder to land a one-handed stab on a fighter, in that you can't just throw it anywhere you please and, if nothing stops it, it should be solid, the way a strike works, but that doesn't make achieving sufficient force with a stab any more difficult.

PS: This thread is not about splitting armor into a two-tiered system of Metal vs. Other.


Of course I am using basic high school physics to describe this. The complex tissue interaction bit has nothing to do with how much pressure is delivered by a stab or a swing. The perception of that pressure sure, but not the quantity itself. Your "force in line with impact" statement has just as many hinges and places to move as a swing. If you think it is "just as easy" to deliver a sufficient force stab, then go to a sign post and stand 3 feet away and try to stab it. Do it 50 times and tell me how many strike the pole. Now swing at it and tell me how many times you miss. I guarantee that you will ALWAYS deliver more solid blows by swinging. If you place a "force meter" on the pole you will find that even when you strike you might not hit hard enough. The key here is SUFFICIENT FORCE. There is a reason that stabbing works so much better in Amtgard than in Bel/Dag. They have to take EVERYTHING that lands. We have to take everything that lands with SUFFICIENT FORCE. The two are completely different. This is also the same reason I find our stabbing requirements completely asinine. It is simply NOT POSSIBLE to land the same kind of blow with a stab as with a swing, so why in the hell do we have to have a pillow on the end of a sword? For the record, I don't think that either Bo or Peter stab all that hard. Do they stab hard enough? Most of the time yes. Do they stab hard enough every time? No. Their swings are far more effective in that regard.

**EDIT** I missed your statement about stabbing being harder to land, so part of my paragraph is directed at all those who think it is just as easy to stab as to hack.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Arrakis » Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:43 pm

Angmarth wrote:If you place a "force meter" on the pole you will find that even when you strike you might not hit hard enough.



I don't think that's true. I'd love to see experimental evidence, but anecdotal evidence and my own personal experiences indicate that it's rather easier for me to stab with sufficient force; easier, in fact, than striking with sufficient force.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Isk » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:39 pm

I can agree that stabbing well is more difficult to learn. You have to either hit perpendicular to the target and to center of mass or hit the pockets, otherwise the shot slides off with insufficient force. But, when you land a stab correctly sufficient force should not be an issue. With just a single blue you can really put someone down with a stab. I'd prefer a red to the kidneys over a solid kidney stab 9 times out of 10. Remember how we don't allow punch weapons? The reason is because a well executed stab can really, really lay the hurt down.

Back on topic, so Angmarth you did notice that the single-hand spear shots were more effective at getting chest shots on armored opponents, but it didn't make that much difference with legs, right? Are spears more powerful on your field? You don't allow reusable missiles, do you do this because allowing stabs to count toward DbD had overpowered them?

We fought by these rules again tonight and I have not observed that it has shifted the balance among the weapons on the field in any significant way.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:10 pm

Froste wrote:I can't reply in the pertinent thread unfortunately. Perhaps one of you who can will pass this along, but on Sunday since I was the only person in armor I took it upon myself to loudly announce that I would take single stabs as one armor hit if it happened.

It happened a couple of times. My heart was not broken. I did not want to shed my armor and cry because it's no longer useful. It was a slight inconvenience, no more, and it encouraged people to stab me which made the fighting a little more unpredictable and therefore interesting.

I liked it.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Thorondor » Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:17 pm

Isk wrote:You don't allow reusable missiles, do you do this because allowing stabs to count toward DbD had overpowered them?


From what I understand, the no reusable missile weapon didn't have anything to do with the DbD.

I don't know the exact reason for the rule, but from what I saw the rule was there to make sure you (1) weren't wasting missiles (javs & arrows), (2) make the fighting move quicker (you didn't have an archer running around collecting arrows, etc), and to (3) make sure people were able to hold their own once they were out of arrows.

I know I learned to make my shots count while fighting in Arnor. I've probably lost some of my skill since I haven't been fighting as much recently, and no arching at all. But I still remember the basics of arching, and it isn't shoot as many arrows as possible and hope you hit something.

I know some archers prefer to stand well behind their line and shoot from a distance, but I have the preference to stand right behind the main force and shoot into the line from a rather close distance. Nothing like half draw kill shots or full draw archer kills from an archer no one realizes is there :)
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Kasada » Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:11 am

Opinion: 1h green damages armor same as blue (which it seems most people agree on).
Green counts toward limb-death on legs, but not arms; as to playability this would make it so legged people don't have to be asked how they were legged, a dangling arm is easy to distinguish from a slashed arm, and said arm would still be useful in positioning to block subsequent stabs or a slash that would otherwise hit body. As to realism, it seems that an armed person would still be able to swing the arm around, even if nerves were severed, while at the same time, a leg wound is much more likely to become infected.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Rasheab » Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:57 am

That's more complicated then it is now. "Realism" wise, if your arm was damaged to the point where you couldn't use it, you would try to swing it at people?

Regarding the question: what about keeping "piercing" damage just with regards to missile weapons? It would keep archery at its current power level (a concern some people have), and it would be simple to explain. "Limbs damaged by missile weapons don't count towards death." Or:

3.4.1.5. Two disabled limb Target Areas (Arms and/or Legs) cause Death. Limbs injured with Class 4 Weapons do not count towards this total.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Juicer » Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:30 am

I'd rather take a full-force red swing from anyone then a full-range one-handed spear lunge from a competent spear fighter. I can put someone out for a couple rounds if I really want to. So sufficient force is no problem. Angmarth's signpost example is absolute retarded *. A better comparison would be a tennis ball on a string. Count how many times out of fifty you hit that ****. What are we even talking about here?
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Angmarth » Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:03 pm

While I stand by my comparison, I will take yours for arguments sake. Not only will I hit the ball more often with a swing than you will with a stab, but when I hit it the ball (if it comes free from the string) will easily travel a couple hundred feet. How far will your stab travel?

If you would rather take full force 2h red swing from someone in lieu of a 1h stab from a "competent" spear fighter, I think you will come out on the worse end of that one. That's not just my opinion tho, it is the math talking. Last time I checked, baseball players didn't try to "pool cue" any baseballs out of the park. Hell, even slow pitch softball players swing for a reason. If we are at the same event this next year, I will happily let you stab me with a 1h spear strike if I get to 2h swing you after you take your turn.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby bo1 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:26 pm

angmarth, look at it from this perseptive.

how much force does it take to stop the blow.

if you swing and try and move an object roughly 150 lbs, on wheels on a flat smooth surface, how far would it travel. maybe a few inches, perhaps a foot.

now line up a stab and it can roll several feet. when yuou stab a ball it goes a few feet, swing and it goes a hundred. again not the same type of thing.


i just did it at work with some paper boxes and a cart. the forces are not the same type, the levers are different and the entire process is different. stop using simple math to express complex interactions.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Angmarth » Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:50 pm

Bo,

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think your example invalidates what I am saying. However, rather than going back and forth with a "yes it is" and "no its not" I will simply agree to disagree on what you say and move on.

Let's look at what we are REALLY discussing have here:

1) Should stabs count as hacks? (2 limbs equals death)
2) Should armor ignore 1h stabs? (stab damage different than hack)
3) Should stab tips have less stringent requirements at the national level? (stabbing tips easier to pass)

I'm definitely sold on 1 and 3, but am on the fence with 2. We have been playing 1 and 3 locally for the past 6 years.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Isk » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:24 pm

Isk wrote:Back on topic, so Angmarth you did notice that the single-hand spear shots were more effective at getting chest shots on armored opponents, but it didn't make that much difference with legs, right? Are spears more powerful on your field than at the events you attend which are played by the BoW? You don't allow reusable missiles, do you do this because allowing stabs to count toward DbD overpowers them?
Thorondor partially answered these, but since we are trying to get down to "how does this actually work out on the field" instead of hypothesizing ourselves to death, It'd be nice to hear your responses.

Samhain this year will play test stabs counts toward DbD and 1h green does 1 pt of damage to armor. If I understood correctly, Rhun will be testing at practices up to and including Rhun Closer. An Tir Dearg is playtesting these rules now. Anyone else who wants to contribute actual playtesting experience, please do.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Angmarth » Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:38 am

Most of the changes we have ever made, were to increase the amount of melee fighting during any given battle. We have a disdain for the "javelin juggling" ends to fights or the equally ridiculous "fish in a barrel". So to combat that (combined with the fact that BOTH of types of missiles are 1 shot kills to a location off limits to other weapons) we have simply made all missiles "non-reusable". As I said before, when we played with spears counting as red it didn't really change the way fights played out. People called graze or light on stabs that weren't good... which is most of them. The place it made a difference was getting full extension on a 1 arm shot to the torso.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Shino » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:56 pm

For Armor rules remaining unchanged-

The historical accuracy, ease of playability, and rule-simplifying arguments for 1green hit = 1 blue hit is completely invalid. We are not the SCA. Nor do we fence. We construct nerf weapons under guidelines that are loose in their specificity at best.
If the historical accuracy argument is valid then the same statement can be made against the use of tube weapons as no 12oz stick ever lopped off an arm or leg. Really, if historical accuracy is the biggest proponent for blue damage stabbing then we need to completely reevaluate our weight minimums and armor classifications as neither require one to meet historical standards.
Yes, we want to simulate medieval combat but we also want a fun and playable game that requires real skill to excel at. (that's how we get our rocks off with Bel) We are a different game than Amptguard and if you enjoy how the combat in that game plays then by all means, go play it. Our differences are what keep our two games interesting and promotes new ideas and techniques. If every boffer game played the same we would never learn anything new form one another. With so many cross-gamers out there it would be a bad decision to do away with our subtle differences. Dumbing down our rules will ultimately lead to the dumbing down of fighting styles and because of that we can't give an inch of complexity form our already simple rule book.
Some sports rules are in place to impede the player. What would basket ball be if you didn't have to worry about the double dribble? What about no 'Off Sides' rules? These games would become too easily broken.
This current armor rule may hinder some but it essentially makes armor and thus the opponent wearing it is an obstacle worth putting forth extra effort against.

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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Arrakis » Sat Oct 23, 2010 7:08 am

Shinbro wrote:For Armor rules remaining unchanged-

The historical accuracy, ease of playability, and rule-simplifying arguments for 1green hit = 1 blue hit is completely invalid. We are not the SCA. Nor do we fence. We construct nerf weapons under guidelines that are loose in their specificity at best.
If the historical accuracy argument is valid then the same statement can be made against the use of tube weapons as no 12oz stick ever lopped off an arm or leg. Really, if historical accuracy is the biggest proponent for blue damage stabbing then we need to completely reevaluate our weight minimums and armor classifications as neither require one to meet historical standards.
Yes, we want to simulate medieval combat but we also want a fun and playable game that requires real skill to excel at. (that's how we get our rocks off with Bel) We are a different game than Amptguard and if you enjoy how the combat in that game plays then by all means, go play it. Our differences are what keep our two games interesting and promotes new ideas and techniques. If every boffer game played the same we would never learn anything new form one another. With so many cross-gamers out there it would be a bad decision to do away with our subtle differences. Dumbing down our rules will ultimately lead to the dumbing down of fighting styles and because of that we can't give an inch of complexity form our already simple rule book.
Some sports rules are in place to impede the player. What would basket ball be if you didn't have to worry about the double dribble? What about no 'Off Sides' rules? These games would become too easily broken.
This current armor rule may hinder some but it essentially makes armor and thus the opponent wearing it is an obstacle worth putting forth extra effort against.

Just do what you do best and chop away.

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Yeah, because our weapons weigh 12 oz I guess we should throw realism out the window. Why don't we just start casting magic spells at one another, then, right?

Your argument is a slippery slope fallacy and a glossing over of the issues we've been discussing.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Big King Jimmy » Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:12 pm

Arrakis, stop arguing like a huge bag of *. After reading this thread every day for a month I don't even want to talk to you at events, because you just sound like a piece of ****. You're not a bad guy, stop acting like one.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Arrakis » Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:29 pm

Sorry, Jimmo, I just keep getting the same **** arguments that don't make sense spat out by different people and all I can think to do is continue to point out the lunacy of the * being sprayed around in this thread.

But you're absolutely right. I'm done with it. I've said everything I can say in support of this change in as many ways as is reasonable. If anybody wants a particular answer out of me, PM me.


PS: Those of you who don't really know me: I'm not (as much of) a * in person.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Rocca » Sun Oct 24, 2010 2:03 am

Arrakis wrote:PS: Those of you who don't really know me: I'm not (as much of) a * in person.

Don't worry too much about it Arrakis, we should all know the internet * theory.

As for my input, I disagree with a rule change. I am in favor of the variability that the green damage gives to the game. I see the different weapon types and damage akin to different positions on a sports team. In basketball different positions serve different functions and are more important on the offense or defense. Also, depending on a persons stature and/or ability they may be better able to play different positions. Our game is not a fighting video game, where each character and their different weapon set is equal to the next. The strengths and weaknesses of each weapon type are, to me, what make the game interesting.

*shrug* There's my two cents.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby The Lost Celt » Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:09 pm

I think armour is overrated in this sport, it takes little effort for me to hit you twice in a row in less than a second in the same time it takes me to double hand green or red you and kill you in one shot.

So if you'd be willing to honor single handed green or even double handed blue as a single strike I'm interested...

I do think the single green does no damage is a crock and have honored kills to me likewise where the person had the guts to charge and drive me through in full armor with nothing but a dagger, even if it isn't in the rules I'll honor that for pure guts ;)

So what say you? A single handed attack with a red sword against armor delivers one point of blue damage, a double handed thrust from a red weapon kills an opponent, but somehow a spear doesn't follow these rules, and I think it has to do with some misconceptions unfortunately...
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Plithut » Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:13 pm

I would be willing to bet money on; if the current rules got changed to reflect the green/blue damage as the same type today, within a year or two we would be revisiting the rules regarding spears/archery/greens again due to change. I GUARANTEE that if the rules get changed you will see less and less Red Users, Florentiners, and you would almost never see armor. Why would I want to wear anything that would encumber me that conveys even less protection than it does under the current rule set? Oh, and you think archers are bad NOW? The explosion of archers and spear users because of this rule change would be nauseating.

If anything I see these pushes to change the rules as a further step away from looking medieval. I agree with others when they say learn shot variety with different weapons styles. I agree that it is more the problem of realms not teaching their fighters the proper fighting mechanics than a problem with the rules. The rules are already easy enough as is.

And since we seem to have 3 topics regarding the same conversation I am just going to copy and paste my reply into all of them.

In Conclusion;
I believe that this proposed change is wrong.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby The Lost Celt » Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:18 pm

I'd argue otherwise Plithut, there simply aren't enough red users out there to make that comparison, and I fail to see how this would effect florentine weapons either - all of these things are a niche interest for fighters and if anything allowing single green to equate to blue is giving florentine fighters a boost...

As far as detracting from a midieval experience I also think that's somewhat invalid too, like it or not spears and archery were invaluable and used much more often than a fully suited knight in armor, typically most people couldn't even afford the armor, I think the reason we see less of these on the field is cost and maintenence and even transport of the weapons if it's an 8 footer.

Add to that the limitations of the wielder within the rules, most people wouldn't bother, the ones that do want to because there's a reason ;)

I think the difference is how or why you fight, I don't like CA, I've gotten a few bloody noses from them, likewise the tank doesn't like getting punked from a spear not in his range - the only complaint I have is that green damage is not equal to a one handed red, and "pool que" shots are invalid even though red shots use the same mechanics as such and are not discounted (keep in mind if there's zero control with direction of force than it is indeed cheese and most likely will skip over the person, but otherwise I'm thinking the people who made that rule never fought with a green weapon and just got punked all the time and instead of switching tactics called it cheese)

Honestly what I want to see is variety...
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Black Cat » Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:37 am

I've been thinking about this subject lately, and I came up with an interesting thought.

Is the goofiness of running around on the field unable to attack the only reason why some of us want rid of green damage not counting toward the limb total?

If so, I propose:

Book of War wrote:3.4.1.5. Two disabled limb Target Areas (Arms and/or Legs) cause Death. Limbs injured with Class 3 and Class 4 Weapons do not count towards this total.
3.4.1.6. Two disabled arms cause death. This is an exception to rule 3.4.1.5.

Added text in bold.


This change would still allow a fighter to take a green in both legs and one arm without dying, but cause death to any fighters who would otherwise only serve as meatshields.
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Re: Green damage. Modify it, eliminate it, leave it alone?

Postby Magpie Saegar » Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:17 am

Black Cat wrote:I've been thinking about this subject lately, and I came up with an interesting thought.

Is the goofiness of running around on the field unable to attack the only reason why some of us want rid of green damage not counting toward the limb total?


For me it's mostly about the overall simplicity. It's not that everything should be simple but it's that (I feel) this speeds the game up a bit. And if you see someone kneeling, you'll know that they lost one limb. And it's easier/quicker to teach. And it's just as fun, from my experience running things that way.

The goofiness is maybe part of it, but separating how stabbing interacts with arms and how stabbing interacts with legs is a step in the wrong direction in terms of simplicity.
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Magpie Saegar
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