Lower max jav weight

[Big King Jimmy]

I hope this doesn't get lost amid all the talk about stabbing and armor and armor and stabbing and armor, but my realm and I were discussing a rule along a completely different route.

I know more people who have had a bone broken from Javs than any other weapon. I would say once a year or so someone ends up with a broken nose from a jav. It could be a low quality weapons check, they happen, it could be just wrong place wrong time, though that should never be a factor, but a common theme that failed javs and javs that injure people seem to have is that they push the 24 oz limit.

The number that we discussed was 16 ozs. I'll admit we didn't give that particular number much thought, sort of pulled it would of the air. So I've got a couple of questions: Does anyone have a fresh Edhellen jav they can weigh (as we didn't feel they were usually a problem.), a fresh kite spar jav they can weigh, and a fresh home brew fiberglass core jav they can weigh?

I would point out that every kitespar jav I have seen (in other words: lighter) has flown better than a fiberglass counterpart. I'd also say that most vets who pick up a heavy jav give it the look of "****, one of these?" I really feel this change would have minimal impact on available weaponry, make the field far safer, and in a very minor way encourage better javs on the field, since my limited anecdotal evidence suggests that lighter javs fly better.

Thank you for your time.

[Loptr]

What is the reason 24oz was picked?
Is this a hold over from the thick walled pvc days?

Like everybody I have been nailed with javies. I certainly prefer the ones that dont jar my head. If I recall correctly at Chaos somebody got their nose jacked up from a jav.

I am curious to hear the discussion on this.

L

p.s. what about a Jav actin like one point of armor and doing single green damage? Would it then negate it self against armor? I kid....

[Forkbeard]

I agree with Jimi. Lets weigh some Javlins.
In my experience, the heavy ones are the crappiest ones. Therefore, they seem to hurt more folks.
But, I also am of the opinion that differnt people noses break differently. Some people who have had their nose broken several times have a weak spot there that wil always break easier. I've had a couple friends with this problem. I broke one of their noses 4 times just playing around over the years. Conversly, my nose has never broken despite having been smashed several times(please don't try to beak it for me).
I don't think lowering the max wieght for Jav's will change anything about the game, but it could imrove safety. It surely will take nothing away.
FB

[bo1]

rhun is for it.
i dont have a standard jav near by or i would wiegh it.

[varadin]

I will point out that. At okfest last weekend, I saw 3 jav injuries from standard edhellens. They were broken down or thrown too hard. So just because weight comes down in line with them, doesn't mean for slacking on weapon check standards or procedures.

I do agree that less weight will cause less injuries as well as far less head snapping back pain from the force of a heavy jav hitting you. Id like to see someone at the next big event run some numbers on javalins, See how many under what weight pass, and how many at more of weight fail. Also marking the reason for the fail (head wobble, hit, felt core). Ill see what i can do at one of my local events around here since we dont see to many of the standard javalins out this way. This will be a smaller test and it will be colder so im not sure what the outcome will be.

[Peregrine]

with weapon construction having evolved to it current point, there is no reason for javs to be that heavy.

[Arrakis]

My most recent jav build, an honestly kind of sloppily-constructed 49-incher on .602 kitespar, weighs ~12 oz. I'll re-weigh it again when I get home tonight or tomorrow morning.

[Isk]

. . . Id like to see someone at the next big event run some numbers on javalins, See how many under what weight pass, and how many at more of weight fail. Also marking the reason for the fail (head wobble, hit, felt core). Ill see what i can do at one of my local events around here since we dont see to many of the standard javalins out this way. This will be a smaller test and it will be colder so im not sure what the outcome will be.

I think this is a great idea as well. I'd be willing to bring my electronic scale and record these numbers at Samhain if you're cool with that Fork.

One of my guys actually brought this up a couple weeks ago as we were playing with a .602" kitespar jav. It's about 5'9" long and it flies straighter while hitting nicer than a 4' jav built on a 1/2" solid fiberglass core. He jokingly suggested requiring all javs to be kitespar since they'd be both safer and better quality.

[Sir Par]

I'm Sir Par and I approved this message.

[Arrakis]

My most recent jav build, an honestly kind of sloppily-constructed 49-incher on .602 kitespar, weighs ~12 oz. I'll re-weigh it again when I get home tonight or tomorrow morning.

12.6 oz. It could have been probably 10.6 oz if I'd been more careful with tape and with my pommel build.

[Big King Jimmy]

A fresh Edhellen would probably be the most useful info, we would like to be able to change it so that they're not excluded, as we feel they're safer than most home built javs.

[Isk]

Alright, here are the results from Javelin testing at Samhain (which was a really awesome and enjoyable event). Only a fraction of the javelins presented for inspection passed, primarily because of flex. Flex is apparently not usually tested with Javs out here in the wild, wild west. As you look at the data below, the only jav weighing less than 16ozs that passed flex was kitespar. There were no Edhellen javs in the mix. A few of the javs that failed would have failed hit as well (2-3 of them). The only jav over minimum length was the kitespar jav at about five and a half feet, which was also the lightest.

Again, I am pretty certain none of these javelins were Edhellens so it would be interesting to see their weight and flex results.

Code: Select all

Javelins Tested at Samhain 2010
Pass
Weight  Comments
  18.7   1/2" solid fiberglass core
  22.9   1/2" solid fiberglass core, extra padded haft   
  16.3   1/2" solid fiberglass core
  19.9   1/2" solid fiberglass core
  10.4   .602" Kitespar, ~5'6" long
 
Fail
Weight  Comments
  25.9   Weight (these were dag javs with the 3.5" head)
  27.3   Weight (these were dag javs with the 3.5" head)
  13.7   3/8" core, tons of flex
  13.8   3/8" core, tons of flex
  13.7   3/8" core, tons of flex
  13.6   3/8" core, tons of flex
  13.7   3/8" core, tons of flex
  23.9   Flex
  11.6   Flex
  14.5   Flex
  14.7   Flex
  13.4   Flex
  13.4   Flex
  13.8   Flex
  13.7   Flex

Conclusion: If we lower the weight limit significantly, we will have to adjust flex rules. The other option would be to require kitespar javs only

[Big King Jimmy]

I wouldn't be APPOSED to more jav flex at all. I mean, I've seen people try to do the 7' whippy spear with a long jav before, and then they realize it doesn't really work, and wrecks your haft padding.

When a jav flexes more, that's more energy going into bending a solid object and less into my nose.

[Cyric]

Fail
Weight Comments
25.9 Weight (these were dag javs with the 3.5" head)
27.3 Weight (these were dag javs with the 3.5" head)
13.7 3/8" core, tons of flex
13.8 3/8" core, tons of flex
13.7 3/8" core, tons of flex
13.6 3/8" core, tons of flex
13.7 3/8" core, tons of flex
23.9 Flex
11.6 Flex
14.5 Flex
14.7 Flex
13.4 Flex
13.4 Flex
13.8 Flex
13.7 Flex

Conclusion: If we lower the weight limit significantly, we will have to adjust flex rules. The other option would be to require kitespar javs only

Javelins can flex up to 90 degrees. how were you testing these that so many failed for flex? and how long were they?

[Arrakis]

Javelins can flex up to 90 degrees. how were you testing these that so many failed for flex? and how long were they?

[Isk]

I have always flex tested a jav the same way I'd initially test a min red, I put one hand just above the pommel and one hand about 12" up, swing and stop abruptly. If the jav bends over more than 90 degrees I would fail it for flex. If a red is close to 45 I'll test it over a shield, leg or shoulder. Personally, I don't keep javs that flex over 90 degrees off of our practice field because they are, IMO, even safer and we haven't had anyone trying to make fencing-style 90 degree stabs.

Also, from Fork's post some of these may have been Edhellen's and I just didn't realize it. Fork, were your javs from Edhellen? If so, they weighed in at 14.5 and 14.7.

[Arrakis]

Isk, if you're shaking the jav back and forth, it's allowed to flex a total, in both directions, of 179*. If you're just snapping it in one direction, I really doubt any min-length 1/2" round fiber core jav is going to get past 75* or so.

[Isk]

I was swinging it one way, then pulling back abruptly so it carried on forward. None of the 1/2" solid fiberglass javs I brought or knew the manufacturer of did go past halfway. If Fork's javs were Edhellen and that's their core material, then those javs were close to 90, but past. Perhaps they have flexed out over time. When I failed that many javs people scratched their heads, so I showed them how I tested them and they said, "Well, most western events don't actually check javies for flex. That is definitely over 90 degrees, though."

This discussion of how it's done right and whether we need to enforce the flex rule is why I went ahead and failed those javs. Only a few of them were actually unsafe. We obviously needed to get a clearer picture for the future. Incidentally, it might be a great idea to put up some videos of weapons checking, especially flex, so we could have a more standard interpretation.

[Arrakis]

Huh. It's just a little bizarre. I had a 3/8" round jav for a long time and, at 49", it was certainly awfully close to the 180 mark when shaken at its natural frequency, but I wouldn't have expected so MANY of them to fail.

Anyway, that's just another bump for .602 javs! I'd say .524'll pass for flex, too, and probably last longer than a 3/8" round fiber jav, too.

[bo1]

huh, well i appolgize for suspecting a mistake then. i have seen many many 3/8ths javs that when shaken dont fail for flex, i believe it is when edhellen uses standard, but over time i imagine they would eventually flex out.

it looks like 16 oz would be a really good wieght to go with given those wieghts. it seems a basic edhellen is around 15 oz, with kitespar coming in 3 oz lighter.

[Isk]

Bo and Arrakis, I may still be doing it wrong because IME a 3/8" core jav can't pass flex testing. I made javs out of 3/8" solid fiber rods which, while almost brand new, were failed for flex at Yestare in '09. That is the reason I make them out of 1/2" or kitespar.

Regarding 16oz as the weight limit, it would be tough to make safe 1/2" x 48" fiberglass javs that weigh less than 16ozs. The 16.3 oz jav that passed was only finished a few days before and it's a very streamlined 1/2" cored jav. If 1/2" cores will continue to be used to pass flex, the weight limit needs to be more like 18-19ozs.

My own opinion is that the 3/8" javs are safer and a better choice although because of flex they don't fly as well and suck as green weapons. If a person wants a stiffer, higher performance jav, they can go with kitespar.

[Forkbeard]

My 2 and Eunuch's 2 and Kains 2 all failed. They are all Edhellen Javs. Mine are about 2 years old. 2 were bought last year and 2 were bought this spring.
So 6 were bought from Edhellen and had never had flex issues before. I think they all have 3/8" cores, but I've never cut them open. They work fine so I don't have to.
What does Edhellen use for Jav cores?
FB

[Sir Anastasia]

My realm also has had issues with javelin injuries and we would approve decreasing the min weight to 16 oz. BTW I really hate that Dag rule for the 3.5" head, those are always the heaviest javs on the field.

[Isk]

I wonder if they weigh all of those 3.5" headed javs because the two I weighed were pretty lean and yet about 2 ozs too heavy.

[Arrakis]

My jav passes the new Dag rules.

But I'm awesome.

[Big King Jimmy]

Isk, focusing on a couple of things you said, 3/8 jav are safer but fail a flex test, and flexy javs don't fly as well. While I'm not sure on the second one, but if the first is the case I'd like to amend the suggestion to relaxing flex rules and dropping max jav weight to 16 ozs. If they do in face fly worse, that's something that we'll just have to get used to, and if they don't, even better. Kitespar javs fly amazing and would make weight, 3/8" javs will make weight and won't fly as well, and .5" javs just won't make weight, and I don't feel they're very safe anyway. What would be an acceptable change to the flex rules?

[Cyric]

Edhellen jav's use 3/8, i'm 90% sure.

[Big King Jimmy]

That's good info, I was gonna try E-mailing them to get an idea of weight and core on Edhellen javs, don't like pm'ing people about that kind of stuff. Work stuff is work.

[Satanaka]

At Equinox- there were a few that failed. They were very heavy and hurt.
The ones I have seen from Edhellon seem to fly well and I have not had issues with hitting- BUT- I also like to police missile weapons all the time and watch out for the foam breaking down over time.

At a Dag event- Some of the ones on the field were heavy and poofy BUT did not fly well and did pack a punch.

[Isk]

Fork's Edhellens were just over 90 so a ruling of 120 or 135 degrees would do. The 5 homemade 3/8" core javs (all identical, all well-made) flexed quite a bit more when I tested them. Maybe Bacchus, Garren, Rev or someone else watching could comment on how far they think would be enough, but it may need to be as much as 180 degrees. I just walked into the garage and tested a fresh 3/8" x 4' rod for flex and it went to about 45 degrees. IMO, it's the extra weight of the jav head that makes it flex so much further (and 3/8" loosens up and flexes out fairly fast).

Since extra flex isn't really a negative safety issue, the question is playability. Extra flex just decreases their performance as javelins, but could allow some weird green stabbing options. However, since these javelins have been in use without complaints about bizarre flexy green attacks that concern is probably invalid.

Setting the weight limit at 16 ozs., 3/8" will probably be the only valid solid core option and won't be able to be longer than 4'. Anything longer or higher performance will have to be kitespar or Max Gain tubing.

Satanaka, what about testing for flex? Did you guys test the same way I described and did many fail flex?

So: tl-dr: My recommendation, make flex 180 degrees and drop the weight maximum to 16 ozs.

[Arrakis]

Subject: Lower max jav weight

My jav passes the new Dag rules.

But I'm awesome.

I made a Dag legal javelin using your tutorial and a 3/8" solid fiberglass 4' rod, and it weighs right at 16 oz. I used pipe insulation and carpet tape for the haft padding, so I can probably shave weight by going to an aerosol adhesive. It's passed Byzantium Anniversary and Oktoberfest, for what that's worth. I only PM you because I am not cool enough to reply directly.

[Squire Moxk]

I am in favor of this across the board. I was initially a fan of the weight max being dropped to 12 because it would force people to build with safer and better materials i.e. kite spar. 1 pound however is a good bench mark and does not eliminate current Edhellen products from the market and also allows people to still home build with local supplies. It would however be nice to see Edhellen produce a kitespar version of their current javs.

As far a flex on a jav, in my opinion that is a non issue. I have never in my entire fighting career seen someone abuse the 90 degree rule to give themselves an advantage. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but even if it could the safety benefits of allowing flexier javs greatly outweighs an unbalancing in game mechanic that could come from it. If anything its a disadvantage, flexier javsfly worse and are not ridged enough to block most shots without anviling.

[Satanaka]

from what I could tell- flex was checked like normal greens or even like a red. Not much issues with flex that I remember.

Satanaka, what about testing for flex? Did you guys test the same way I described and did many fail flex?

Shouldn't this be an issue for the Heralds to determine at weapons check? I have seen many Javalins that range from 12 to 24 onces that still passed and were safe. By adding such tight limits- are we not just making in where you HAVE to get Javalins from Edhellen? BTW- I get mine from Edhellen but I also think people need to be able to make their own. If "joe the fighter' can make one that is safe and passes every test and it weighs in at 18 onces- why do we want to limit people? Do we really want to start making rules that do this?

I don't think we need to change a rule of 24 ounces for a Javalin. Heralds can tell if it is safe or not. Missile weapons get checked every day (should)- so I think we can police it via the Heralds.

[Big King Jimmy]

from what I could tell- flex was checked like normal greens or even like a red. Not much issues with flex that I remember.

Satanaka, what about testing for flex? Did you guys test the same way I described and did many fail flex?

Shouldn't this be an issue for the Heralds to determine at weapons check? I have seen many Javalins that range from 12 to 24 onces that still passed and were safe. By adding such tight limits- are we not just making in where you HAVE to get Javalins from Edhellen? BTW- I get mine from Edhellen but I also think people need to be able to make their own. If "joe the fighter' can make one that is safe and passes every test and it weighs in at 18 onces- why do we want to limit people? Do we really want to start making rules that do this?

I don't think we need a rule with weighs for a Javalin. Heralds can tell if it is safe or not. Missile weapons get checked every day (should)- so I think we can police it via the Heralds.

When we start checking javs by throwing them at faces and seeing if it breaks noses, instead of at large chunks of flesh on the back, I'll agree. The number of times I've talked to a checker who felt an arrow or jav and barely passed it, only to have me say "Okay, can I throw it at your face?" to see them go wide eyed and shocked and say "NOOOO! Fail." shocks me.

[Sir Anastasia]

It is important to remember where these things are heading. Also, Joe-noob shouldn't have to buy quality gear from edhellen; however, he probably shouldn't be taking a crack at javelin construction until he has built up quite an * of passing swords, shields, and stabbing legal weapons. I wouldn't think your average noob could or should be building these.

[Squire Moxk]

Agreed. We don't make arrow rules any less stringent so that joe noob can make arrows. why should we have lower expectations for javs.

[varadin]

Agreed. We don't make arrow rules any less stringent so that joe noob can make arrows. why should we have lower expectations for javs.

Yeah but i can make a 23.5 ounce javalin that is safe now. The problem i see is with bad weapons checks or people who dont understand "wait that an hit me in the nose? **** that fail it"

Its like red swords, At 12 ounces a red sword would be safer to the hit, but i dont want to take its mim weight down or put a max weight on it. If they are checked properly you shouldn't need to care. We don't have weapons dimension minimums anymore because it comes down to a check.

Really i can say that i know of pleanty of events where javelins are even weighed, id rather see that dissapear first before we toss in a new weight limit to them.

[Arrakis]

Agreed. We don't make arrow rules any less stringent so that joe noob can make arrows. why should we have lower expectations for javs.

Yeah but i can make a 23.5 ounce javalin that is safe now.

Safe for the face? How? I don't know of any combination of foams and techniques that could keep 23.5 oz from breaking your nose on a full-strength throw from 25 feet.

[Squire Moxk]

Its like red swords, At 12 ounces a red sword would be safer to the hit, but i dont want to take its mim weight down or put a max weight on it. If they are checked properly you shouldn't need to care. We don't have weapons dimension minimums anymore because it comes down to a check.

I don't believe that argument is valid because there is no minimum force requirement for javs to score a hit (the original reason for adding minimum weights for swinging weapons), and red swords do not strike the face legally. So there is less of a reason to consider how much weight is being delivered, because you don't get concussions or broken noses from red's hitting you legally.

[Tiberius Claudius]

Agreed. We don't make arrow rules any less stringent so that joe noob can make arrows. why should we have lower expectations for javs.

Yeah but i can make a 23.5 ounce javalin that is safe now.

Safe for the face? How? I don't know of any combination of foams and techniques that could keep 23.5 oz from breaking your nose on a full-strength throw from 25 feet.

Mine was that heavier one in the weapons check list that was posted (extra haft padding). I actually followed your construction method on the Wiki, Arrakis, with all the high-speed jazz about SBD's except that my core is a 48", 1/2" round fiberglass rod. I tested it with a shot to my face (hit the forehead) at 15.5 ft, full throw from a guy who was 5'10", 165 lbs. just because I'm hardcore like that and wanted to see if this argument held true.

***EDIT*** I also hit a red user square in the face next to his left eye at Samhain from a very simliar distance. He did an epic death which caused me to stop fighting to ask him if he was hurt, but he said no. I'm curious, if he's here, what his thoughts are on its impact level. ***

It was solid, but safe and I honestly don't think that it would have broken my nose when it hit because there's a good deal of open cell (poof ball) over marine foam. Now, that's not to say that it couldn't have broken my or anyone else's nose, and I'm a huge fan of reducing the max weight / plugging the use of kitespar jav cores because they are de facto safer; but I believe that it is possible for these homebuilds that follow current rules to be safe so long as care is taken in their construction and maintenance. If it weren't so, why would the rules allow for it?

Should we check javs with a shot to the face? Back of the head? I can't see too many folks lining up for that duty. It's my opinion that so long as we're throwing crap at people's heads, injuries will occur no matter how much we try to prevent it. Lowering the max weight will reduce those chances quite a bit though and we should do that.

[Big King Jimmy]

I've thought over this "better weapons checking" argument. Here's my thoughts.

I've seen javs break noses at every event. SW, Octfest, Chaos, if you've run an event for more than 10 years, a nose has been broken on your field at least once, if not a few times. These events have some of the best (and other not so great) weapons checking I've seen. But even at events with great weapons checking this is one of those things that just "happens." I really feel that javs that push our weight limits will feel fine in check and are dangerous on the field no matter the skill of the weapons checker, you're throwing a pound and a half object with a core rigid core that is long but whose cross section hitting you is very, very narrow. When I look at a jav I think about what the core is doing through impact. Sure, we pad them to prevent this, but at the end of the day we're throwing fiberglass rods at our friends faces.

I'm not saying lowering the max weight would end the broken noses, but I feel that a 1 lbs cap on jav weight would significantly reduce what is an all too common "freak accident" with a weapon that people feel is padded sufficiently to prevent injury (as per the book of war). Lowering the max jav weight is a good move.

[Black Cat]

I read through this thread and it sounds like 24 oz is too heavy for javs. (hence the purpose of this thread)

The proposed 16 oz limit sounds a bit too strict though. 3/8" fiberglass sounds like it is iffy whether or not it will get through weapons check. 1/2" fiberglass or kitespar are the only two safe bets for having a passing javelin. I looked at Goodwinds.com and if I am looking at the right stuff, kitespar "fiberglass tubing" in the correct size isn't cheap. At a 16 oz. limit, 1/2" fiberglass javs would be a thing of the past. That would mean that kitespar would be the only way of making a javelin that would have a good enough chance of making it through check with a pass sticker to be worth building. (at least in my opinion)

.602 is $8.99 per core. 1/2" fiberglass is $4.49 per core. Passing the rule at 16 oz would force people to get jav cores that are twice as expensive. Though leaving the rule how it is lets bad javs get through check just because they're safe enough for body (non-head) contact. I think the best compromise would be 18 oz., which would force javs to be 17.8 oz or less to reliably pass. Foamsmiths using 1/2" fiberglass would have to be more careful with what materials they use, but those javelins would still be feasible to construct.

Source for prices: http://www.goodwinds.com/

Is anyone having problems with 16-18 oz javs breaking noses or otherwise causing problems? Or is it just the crappy javs that weigh 20+ oz.?

[Tiberius Claudius]

1/2" fiberglass is $4.49 per core.

$1.79 at the farm supply store near my house. See if you have a local dealer.

Lower the weight to 16 oz and eliminate flex rule or change it to well above 90* and then we can get 3/8" cores to work at a cost to flight performance.

Use kitespar for long, light, safe javs that won't flex out and will be the uber tech for years to come.

[Elebrim]

The number of times I've talked to a checker who felt an arrow or jav and barely passed it, only to have me say "Okay, can I throw it at your face?" to see them go wide eyed and shocked and say "NOOOO! Fail." shocks me.

This should be the thought used when considering ANY "borderline" weapons. "Would I want this to hit me in the face/kidney/calf/insert-sensitive-target-area-here?" If then answer is "no," then it should fail.

Question: What will lowering weight restrictions do for javelin durability? Javs, unlike arrows, can be caught/whacked out of midair, and can be used in melee fighting. Will they snap in half more frequently? Will they wear down more readily? Does anyone have any relevant thoughts or examples on this?

[Isk]

Elebrim, you bring up a good point, but it shouldn't make a difference if 3/8" cores will pass. They can be safe and durable, Edhellen uses them. Hopefully more people will use kitespar because they are even safer and fly better.

[Rocca]

I think a 16ozrule change would be fine. That being said however, another possible rule change that didn't affect weapons regulations would be to increase the throwing distance. All of the injuries with javs that I've seen, save one (a freak broken tooth), have been thrown from the regulated one-length traveling distance or closer. Tir na nOg (Which, if you ever fought on our field, has like 15 javvies) has a two length house rule and we have had no injuries since putting it in place. Sure, people will make mistakes and get within the two lengths, but with it as a guide line it has helped a lot - fudging a two length distance is not the same as fudging one. *shrug* just a thought.

[Tiberius Claudius]

Hmmm, further distance would possibly eliminate some injuries, but I think it's more a matter of throwing strength vs construction vs hitting vulnerable body parts just right.

Last year one of our guys drilled a small twenty-something girl square in her gut from a good 20-30 feet away with a totally safe jav and she made the sickest grunt I've ever heard and collapsed into a dry heaving lumpy puddle. You'd have thought someone just ripped out her womb with all the dramatics she was giving.

I'm of the opinion that jav weight will reduce our problems the most, but if a change in minimum throwing distance is going to be proposed or made, let's get rid of the "must travel one full length" portion of the rule and simply say you cannot throw from within "15" or "X" feet, period. This would eliminate differences of understanding and application of "half throw" and allow everyone to just haul off and launch the things from a presumably safe distance.

I don't think the jav rules re: distance really are broken, but that's my suggestion if the topic is going to be brought up.

[Big King Jimmy]

Within the next couple of days I'm going to throw this up to war council, good time for any last minute arguments. Those in favor of less broken noses? Those opposed?

[Isk]

I think we discussed it clearly. My takeaway regarding flex was, don't swing test a jav as hard as I'd test a red of the some length. If I am supposed to just swing, but not put as much effort into it, 90 degrees is fine. 3/8" fiberglass and kitespar will pretty much be the options for jav cores and we can make those fine under 16 ounces.

Let's adjust the weight max down to 16 ounces and that should do it.

[varadin]

I know i said something earlier about testing at my Battle we had.

I didn't record any number but i will say that a majority of the javelins out there failed for weight. A few of those were fine on hit though as I had been hit by them the weekend before where i wasn't running the weapons check.

I think the problem really is with weapon check. Im not trying to insult a checker, they do thankless work and I have nothing but respect for that. But when someone who isn't checking hard enough, or who is slightly ill-informed, things go bad. I highly doubt that many javelins even get weighed at the average event.