Lower max jav weight

[Galya]

Jimmy you can probably just throw it up now. Every motion gets a week-long discussion period after the vote is seconded, so there will be plenty of time for last-minute arguments.

[Calarn the Black]

I believe, Varadin, that you might remember the following from OcFest this year...
While line fighting, I picked up a javelin at my feet. I threw it at Minnow, hitting him in the nose. He gave me a funny look, and sat down. I thought it was simply him getting hit in the nose, so I picked the same jav back up, then threw it at Varadin. This time, the jav hit in the side of the head. Varadin sat down grimacing, but signaling that he was fine, and to continue. He was in motion, so I figured it hit him oddly (I've had those hits before). I once again picked up that same jav, and threw it at Nolze; he promptly fell down, stunned. At this point, I tested the jav. It passed check, but it had died, probably assisted by the weight behind it. (It was heavy, much heavier than any I've used normally.

Javs with less weight behind them will break down less quickly, due to the decrease of force behind them. Also, failing javs won't hit at hard when they fail, reducing injury possibility. I'm all for this.

[No'Vak]

Isn't force = mass x velocity(squared)?

So wouldn't a lighter javelin you can throw faster be more dangerous and break down faster?

Idk just a thought, probably wrong.

[Arrakis]

Force is mass times acceleration, which is the derivative of velocity.

Acceleration here is the acceleration that slows the projectile to a stop during the impact. That will be slightly higher for a faster-moving javelin. However, the reduction in mass and the reduction in momentum (conserved during inelastic collisions like that of a javelin hitting a face (mostly inelastic)) more than makes up for it (momentum is mass times velocity and, thanks to "air resistance" among other flight characteristics will increase as a javelin goes up in weight and decrease as it goes down in weight, just not linearly).

[Forkbeard]

Good god Arrakis. I can't decide if that's a cool skill of something we should burn you for.
FB

[varadin]

I believe, Varadin, that you might remember the following from OcFest this year...
While line fighting, I picked up a javelin at my feet. I threw it at Minnow, hitting him in the nose. He gave me a funny look, and sat down. I thought it was simply him getting hit in the nose, so I picked the same jav back up, then threw it at Varadin. This time, the jav hit in the side of the head. Varadin sat down grimacing, but signaling that he was fine, and to continue. He was in motion, so I figured it hit him oddly (I've had those hits before). I once again picked up that same jav, and threw it at Nolze; he promptly fell down, stunned. At this point, I tested the jav. It passed check, but it had died, probably assisted by the weight behind it. (It was heavy, much heavier than any I've used normally.

Javs with less weight behind them will break down less quickly, due to the decrease of force behind them. Also, failing javs won't hit at hard when they fail, reducing injury possibility. I'm all for this.

That was a standard edhellen javelin owned by Sir Thorn of the brotherhood of the falcon. The weight had nothing to do with it, it was just old.

[Satanaka]

Good point to bring up Jimmy. I was reading this and remembered a few weapons check this year. I failed 1 javalin due to the weapon hurt on impact, was to hard, the foam compacted to quick. Now- what really brought this to my attention was the weight to this javalin. When I picked it up- I could have sworn it was a grenn spear... NOT A JAVALIN. the owner assured me it was a javalin and was passed at Armaggedon.

It was very heavy and that was what really brought my attention to the other issues. Now- when I say heavy- I am saying that I am almost sure it was over 3 pounds. The length was the same as others.

Now- with this being said- at three different events I have been to that I worked weapons check- the issue with the weight of the javalin was NOT an issue except for this one time.

Now- I don't want a broken nose, I don't want anyone to get a broken nose. BUT I DO NOT think that a javalin weighting in at 24 onces is gonna break everyones nose.

I think this is sorta a petty rule and one that ios ONLY enforced at two events. I think this is a Herald issue. A Javalin at 18 onces- failed??? WTH? that is very, very silly and this is a rule change that is not needed and will be stupid.

I also want to point out that the "standard" for wich many rules are set "Edhellen" will no longer be with us. i think we are gonna have ore people building weapons. This is going to make many of your weapons fail when it's just off my 3 onces???

Broken noses? I am against. Better Heralds and weapons check? I am 100% for...

Within the next couple of days I'm going to throw this up to war council, good time for any last minute arguments. Those in favor of less broken noses? Those opposed?

[Dane]

I also want to point out that the "standard" for wich many rules are set "Edhellen" will no longer be with us.

The rumors of their demise are greatly exaggerated.

[Black Cat]

Good point to bring up Jimmy. I was reading this and remembered a few weapons check this year. I failed 1 javalin due to the weapon hurt on impact, was to hard, the foam compacted to quick. Now- what really brought this to my attention was the weight to this javalin. When I picked it up- I could have sworn it was a grenn spear... NOT A JAVALIN. the owner assured me it was a javalin and was passed at Armaggedon.

It was very heavy and that was what really brought my attention to the other issues. Now- when I say heavy- I am saying that I am almost sure it was over 3 pounds. The length was the same as others.

Now- with this being said- at three different events I have been to that I worked weapons check- the issue with the weight of the javalin was NOT an issue except for this one time.

Now- I don't want a broken nose, I don't want anyone to get a broken nose. BUT I DO NOT think that a javalin weighting in at 24 onces is gonna break everyones nose.

I think this is sorta a petty rule and one that ios ONLY enforced at two events. I think this is a Herald issue. A Javalin at 18 onces- failed??? WTH? that is very, very silly and this is a rule change that is not needed and will be stupid.

I also want to point out that the "standard" for wich many rules are set "Edhellen" will no longer be with us. i think we are gonna have ore people building weapons. This is going to make many of your weapons fail when it's just off my 3 onces???

Broken noses? I am against. Better Heralds and weapons check? I am 100% for...

Within the next couple of days I'm going to throw this up to war council, good time for any last minute arguments. Those in favor of less broken noses? Those opposed?

Good point, but 24 ounces is a bit too heavy for Javelins. Javelins over 20 ounces are perfectly safe until they start to break down. Then they suck. They break down too quickly to catch to throw off the field before they become bruisers. I had this experience at several practices back in 2006 when I participated regularly.

Setting the limit to 16 ounces however, in my opinion, is a bad move. The limit should be 18 ounces, not 16. 2 ounces might not sound like much of a difference, but this would allow most safe homebrew javelins to pass while still solving the issue of javelins weighing too much on the field.

The 16 ounce limit, on the other hand, is going to fail a lot of perfectly fine javelins by a small, but unsolvable margin and force people to buy expensive cores (read: KITESPAR) to meet a standard that IMO is excessive.

[Squire Moxk]

Edhellen weapons are not going away. They are just not going to be called Edhellen anymore. I think the new company name is forged foam.

[Sir Par]

Satanaka, I don't know about out there, but EVERY event I run adheres strictly to the BOW. In fact, I don't know that I've EVER been to an event where BOW rules weren't the end all be all.

[Isk]

Setting the limit to 16 ounces however, in my opinion, is a bad move. The limit should be 18 ounces, not 16. 2 ounces might not sound like much of a difference, but this would allow most safe homebrew javelins to pass while still solving the issue of javelins weighing too much on the field.

The 16 ounce limit, on the other hand, is going to fail a lot of perfectly fine javelins by a small, but unsolvable margin and force people to buy expensive cores (read: KITESPAR) to meet a standard that IMO is excessive.

16 may be too low as it makes building a 1/2" core jav difficult, but any noob should be able to build a passing 16oz jav on 3/8" fiberglass, which, IME, is cheaper than 1/2". The more expensive argument is fail.

[Black Cat]

Setting the limit to 16 ounces however, in my opinion, is a bad move. The limit should be 18 ounces, not 16. 2 ounces might not sound like much of a difference, but this would allow most safe homebrew javelins to pass while still solving the issue of javelins weighing too much on the field.

The 16 ounce limit, on the other hand, is going to fail a lot of perfectly fine javelins by a small, but unsolvable margin and force people to buy expensive cores (read: KITESPAR) to meet a standard that IMO is excessive.

16 may be too low as it makes building a 1/2" core jav difficult, but any noob should be able to build a passing 16oz jav on 3/8" fiberglass, which, IME, is cheaper than 1/2". The more expensive argument is fail.

3/8" fiberglass javs are more difficult to get passed, especially as the cores age. They are indeed cheaper to build on a per-javelin basis, but they have to be built in greater quantity and outright replaced more often to ensure that a minimum number of them pass at one time. This makes 3/8" javelins more expensive to maintain over time. If a weapon checker is both very strong and very anal, 3/8 javs can fail check automatically even if they are good. Better weapons checking standards will prevent this, but they won't prevent 3/8" cores flexing out in situations where a similar 1/2" core never would.

Not only that, 1/2" fiberglass cores are better because they can allow a javelin to also function as a light short spear, which 3/8" is a little too flexible for, at least based on my experience with javs I've "borrowed" from off the field.

But it looks like the rule is going to pass as-is no matter what point I try to bring up and I'd rather have the new rule pass than have the weight max remain at 24 ounces, so whatever. It's not like I use javs enough for this to have a terrible effect on me anyway.

[Isk]

You are right about 1/2" making a better, stiffer short spear and they fly truer, IME. Going with 18ozs would allow well made 1/2" javs to pass just fine. Kitespar javs are much, much better, though and a 4' weighs about 8 ozs.

The first part of this thread involved a lot of discussion regarding 3/8" and flex and the consensus seems to be that although I was using proper technique to test the jav, I was swinging it too hard. I failed every 3/8" core jav at Samhain because I tested just as hard as I would test a red. Javelins are not used like reds so it's reasonable to me that the flex test could be conducted with less force under which circumstance 3/8" javs will pass flex longer than their heads will pass hit. If you were saying that 3/8" cored javs fail hit sooner, that's an issue of crappy construction and is easily fixed with a quality leather or plastic cap on the base can while building.

For 3/8" javs to be valid cores regarding flex, either you relax the force as compared to a red when flex testing or we change the rules to increase the max flex. All of our testing standards are pretty relative anyway, so I am fine with just not trying as hard when I test a jav.

[Black Cat]

If you were saying that 3/8" cored javs fail hit sooner, that's an issue of crappy construction and is easily fixed with a quality leather or plastic cap on the base can while building.

I'm not saying 3/8" fails for hit sooner at all. If anything, I'd be willing to wager the opposite is true (to a mild degree) if both the 3/8" and the 1/2" are properly constructed.

What I am saying is that 3/8" javelins have flex failure in the core a lot sooner than 1/2" cores would. Since 1/2" is almost overkill in stiffness on properly tested javs that are only primarily meant to be thrown, (but have just the right amount of flex for a throw-legal short spear) it will never have flex failure even after it structurally degrades until the core is totally shot. 1/2" cores have a lot more leeway in terms of stiffness degradation than 3/8" when used as a javelin core, which means 1/2" will last through more passing rebuilds than its 3/8" counterpart.

[Arrakis]

BC: That's what he's saying: If 3/8" cores in javelins are failing flex, you're testing them too hard.

[Forkbeard]

Black Cat.
SHUT UP.
You do not make Javlins. You do not know about this subject and have no vested interest in it's outcome. You are just arguing to agrue. It is irratating.
I know you feel like you have a handle on this issue, but you lack the field experience necasarry to argue this point correctly.
Isk, you say that your testing was correct, but you did it too hard? I say you did it wrong. By doing it too hard. You are the only person who has ever failed a jav for flex at any event I have ever been to. We allowed your ruling to stand only becuase we(the leadership of the realms represented at Sam Hain) do not argue with heralds. Since you were in charge, we followed you decision. We all put the javs you failed back in action the next time we practiced.
The weight is getting lowered becuase heavy Jav's break faces. Flex and expense have nothing to do with it.
FB

[Black Cat]

Black Cat.
SHUT UP.
You do not make Javlins. You do not know about this subject and have no vested interest in it's outcome. You are just arguing to agrue. It is irratating.
I know you feel like you have a handle on this issue, but you lack the field experience necasarry to argue this point correctly.

I do have interest in using javelins in the future though. And it's not like I haven't ever picked up and thrown a javelin before. But I still mostly agree with the 16 ounce limit anyway, so I am done arguing. I'll just use kitespar if I decide to start making javs.

[Isk]

Fork, I can't argue that almost right is still wrong. Therefore, yes, I did it wrong.

The point I was trying to make above, though, is that the technique I used to test the jav is the one used by other weapons checkers throughout the game (we established that on the first page of this thread) and will continue to use so I would like to help other people avoid the same mistake in the future. A 3/8" javelin should pass just fine for flex; learn how hard to test accordingly. I am interested in doing this because exactly the opposite sort of training happened to me.

I was getting back into the game and trying to get oriented as to weight, adequate padding and flex. I went to the first event I could with two shiny new javelins I had made. They passed just fine for hit and weight, but were failed for flex. I was told by the checker that a 3/8" core jav would never pass flex and shown how to check it. I tested it several times for reference and started building them based on 1/2" cores. I have since learned that while that checker is a great veteran fighter, they rarely make their own weapons. Up until this last Samhain I have tested to a '3/8" is too flexy' standard. It turns out I was wrong and I'd like to help make sure others can avoid the same mistake.

I would also like to say thank you to yourself, Sam and the rest of your realm for extending that respect to me when I had volunteered to help. Especially since I was wrong.