Simplicity v.s. Complexity

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Simplicity v.s. Complexity

Postby Goreth » Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:07 pm

As seen in the Green to Blue discussion, there has been movement to simplify classification of weapon and it's respective damage type. We have a rulebook for the explanation of the variety of rules - the book of war. The book of war is a complexity that is the responsibility of engaging participants.

It is my opinion that similar and previous said instances of simplification is a manifestation of laziness and a method of changing the difficulty of some strikes.

Number systems for rules such as armor remain the way they are for thier level of rule recall in combat.
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Re: Simplicity v.s. Complexity

Postby Thorondor » Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:14 pm

Honestly, I just want to hit people with foam weapons and bash people into the ground...if I wanted to remember a ton of rules, I'd go play Amtgard. I always have, and always will take 2limbs = death. Most of the time I won't remember when I get stabbed with 1h greed that I'm immune because of my armor. I play simply because its fun to fight everyone else. And no, our BOW isn't very complex, especially when looking at other games...

Just my 2cents
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Re: Simplicity v.s. Complexity

Postby Goreth » Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:20 pm

Thorondor, My statement was not that the BoW is difficult to understnad but that it was a complexity. Complexity meaning that it has many directives and is used for reference on and off the battlefield.
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Re: Simplicity v.s. Complexity

Postby Goreth » Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:40 pm

Take a character sheet in D&D for example.

One would have a fair bit of information on it. But after much use one would need little reference to it. It is diverse in information but it stands essentially to you as one bit of information. complexity as a noun. For any game to commence there must be rules and more may be made.

Should one want to play a game with rules that will not prone to exploitation, i suggest chess. Not implying that there is exploitation happening here, but that it can without close observation. Im very sure of the supervision of our rules but majority has a tendency to bend to the wishes of the crowd. That is why i posted this thread.
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Re: Simplicity v.s. Complexity

Postby Magpie Saegar » Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:26 am

You're talking vaguely while using big words and poor grammar. But if I interpret correctly, you're saying, "The BoW is good as is; people who want rule changes are too lazy to figure it out." Is that it? Because if so, I disagree completely.
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Re: Simplicity v.s. Complexity

Postby No'Vak » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:19 am

I kind of agree with him.

I mean are we seriously gonna try and pass rules for covers and then derp derp about simplicity and making the rules less complex?
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Re: Simplicity v.s. Complexity

Postby Goreth » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:53 am

Magpie of Rhun wrote:You're talking vaguely while using big words and poor grammar. But if I interpret correctly, you're saying, "The BoW is good as is; people who want rule changes are too lazy to figure it out." Is that it? Because if so, I disagree completely.


BoW is good as is, correct.

Rule changes, that are spoken of, ARE about making STRIKES and/or STABS easier to make a killing blow. (That has the appearance of laziness to me.)

I like the rules the way they are.
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Re: Simplicity v.s. Complexity

Postby Loptr » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:18 am

Krieger wrote:As seen in the Green to Blue discussion, there has been movement to simplify classification of weapon and it's respective damage type. We have a rulebook for the explanation of the variety of rules - the book of war. The book of war is a complexity that is the responsibility of engaging participants.

It is my opinion that similar and previous said instances of simplification is a manifestation of laziness and a method of changing the difficulty of some strikes.

Number systems for rules such as armor remain the way they are for thier level of rule recall in combat.


I was intrigued by you thread. Upon reading it I fail to see the need for a new thread. Your making an argument that is the topic of an existing thread.

Opinnion that you favor non single green duly noted. I am happy to have a respectful debate with you in another thread.

I agree with Thorondor BTW.

So really I am all ears for a conversati9on of simplicity and complexity in the BoW, which is a living document. As times change and the game grows the BoW has the ability to stay relevantand not become antiquated.

I rather enjoy the simplicity and the KISS concept of the BoW. It address most things and has been tweaked over time to accommodate growth and change in attitude. All of this has been done wtihout becoming overly complex.

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Re: Simplicity v.s. Complexity

Postby Goreth » Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:34 am

if you disagree with me, you wish for green to be blue and that we cut down our existing rules because some guy wants all the striking rules to be the same.
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Re: Simplicity v.s. Complexity

Postby Thorondor » Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:39 pm

Krieger wrote:if you disagree with me, you wish for green to be blue and that we cut down our existing rules because some guy wants all the striking rules to be the same.


Why not post in the relevant threads instead of starting your own if that is your point? Spreading out the argument over 3 or 4 threads is NOT the way to argue.
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Re: Simplicity v.s. Complexity

Postby Arrakis » Sat Oct 23, 2010 7:24 am

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Re: Simplicity v.s. Complexity

Postby Cade » Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:20 pm

Krieger wrote:if you disagree with me, you wish for green to be blue and that we cut down our existing rules because some guy wants all the striking rules to be the same.


Some guy?

I think the afore mentioned threads prove that there are quite a bit more than just some guy pushing for simplification of the rules.

And simplifying our rules is the logical outcome of the shift in population from roll players to stick jocks. That is the trend in Belegarth currently. its not a good thing or a bad thing, it just simply is a fact. You can put your own personal interpretation on it however you like, but it doesn't change the facts.

For the stick jocks, simplifying rules is a good thing because its one less thing to concentrate on, and frankly no one cares about a rule thats only there because thats the way it used to be way back when and all the old guys are used to it being that way. That doesn't make it a good rule, it just makes it an old rule.

Simple is better, as long as it makes sense.

Everything being blue damage is simpler, and it makes sense from a playability standpoint. Realism has always taken a back seat to playability and safety, and i see no reason it shouldn't do the same again. If the rule gets passed, it will cut down drastically on the confused looks i get when i explain how to fight to a bunch of new guys, and nothing really changes on the field except the pauses in game play when people have to explain what their status is.
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Re: Simplicity v.s. Complexity

Postby Tiberius Claudius » Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:23 pm

Bravo.
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Re: Simplicity v.s. Complexity

Postby Plithut » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:05 am

Krieger wrote:Rule changes, that are spoken of, ARE about making STRIKES and/or STABS easier to make a killing blow. (That has the appearance of laziness to me.)

I like the rules the way they are.
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Re: Simplicity v.s. Complexity

Postby Rocca » Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:44 am

~ Kade ~ wrote:For the stick jocks, simplifying rules is a good thing


Not true. Many stick jocks (me included) like the rule set with the variety. Many of us like that different weapon combos take different skill/strategies kill someone with. And simple is not always better; look at rules like off-sides in soccer, goal-tending in basketball, etc. (all rules which make it more difficult to win) - just because its more simple doesn't mean it improves the game.
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Re: Simplicity v.s. Complexity

Postby Cade » Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:35 am

Rocca wrote:
~ Kade ~ wrote:For the stick jocks, simplifying rules is a good thing


Not true. Many stick jocks (me included) like the rule set with the variety. Many of us like that different weapon combos take different skill/strategies kill someone with. And simple is not always better; look at rules like off-sides in soccer, goal-tending in basketball, etc. (all rules which make it more difficult to win) - just because its more simple doesn't mean it improves the game.


All true, but in this case, green damage doesn't make it easier to win, or give you a different option to win, it just gives you something else to call the same strike. When push comes to shove, a strike is a strike, and a stab is a strike. All we are really changing here is the language used in the BOW.

The only real finite changes that the proposed alteration would boil down to is people wouldn't have to portray stabbed limbs and hacked limbs differently.

This doesn't change your weapon combos, or remove any of your options. You can still do whatever the heck you want with your sword to your opponent, it just gives him one less thing to think about when portraying damage to his limbs, and just makes everything simpler over all. Not to mention, removing green as the name for a strike would make a stab effect armor as well giving you MORE options rather than less.

So "simplification of the rules" in this instance, would be giving you more combos and strikes not less. It would make the game move quicker, and open up fighting styles that previously were useless simply because armor is immune to one handed stabs. One handed spear and shield for instance.

I'm in favor of the change because it makes sense. I so very much like things that make sense.
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Re: Simplicity v.s. Complexity

Postby No'Vak » Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:34 am

~ Kade ~ wrote:All true, but in this case, green damage doesn't make it easier to win, or give you a different option to win, it just gives you something else to call the same strike. When push comes to shove, a strike is a strike, and a stab is a strike. All we are really changing here is the language used in the BOW.


This isn't really correct. Maybe you just conveyed what you meant weird or something but the first part of this sounds like a stab and a strike are equal which really they aren't. If they were wouldn't need to change the rules.

Edited for sounding like a dumbass.
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Re: Simplicity v.s. Complexity

Postby Rocca » Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:08 pm

~ Kade ~ wrote:All true, but in this case, green damage doesn't make it easier to win, or give you a different option to win, it just gives you something else to call the same strike. When push comes to shove, a strike is a strike, and a stab is a strike. All we are really changing here is the language used in the BOW.


I disagree. If greens were the same as blues then it does "give you a different option to win." My point was (though maybe I didn't articulate it well) that the fact that green to limbs does not effect a persons "hit total" is awesome - it means that I have to think more when attempting to stab, that it becomes more challenging. If it did effect the hit total than the I think that it would be easier to kill someone. A quick stab with a spear to their raised foot, a nick on a free arm, etc. If it was just a two hit game it would loose some of what makes it great - and honestly, its not that complicated. *shrug*
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Re: Simplicity v.s. Complexity

Postby Cade » Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:22 pm

Alright i can see that, but green damage to an arm and blue damage to an arm "in my experience" has always caused more problems than it solves. Every time i take a green shot to an arm or leg, then take a blue strike to another limb and then kill the guy, who saw two points of damage to two different limbs and assumed that i was dead, i get confused looks and or yelled at depending on the fighter. Its happened fighting against newbs, vets and everyone in between. Im right and they are wrong according to the rules, but since they are the one who was an idiot and got killed for it, its my fault not theirs naturally.

Simplifying two kinds of shots with different effects to one point of damage clears up a lot of confusion in newer fighters and just makes everything a little more streamlined. I have literally had new fighters read the rules, not realize that green and blue damage to a leg are portrayed exactly the same, and then walk off the field never to come back because they think we as a sport are a bunch of cheaters who use loopholes to win battles. Their loss, but its a confusion issue that doesn't have to be an issue.

I personally don't like having to ask a fighter what his status is in the thick of battle. When we have two lines hit each other, and arrows are flying thick i don't have time to ask fighters what their status is. Nether do i have time to hit the guy and wait to see if he takes death. Nor do i want to hit the guy then keep hitting him till he yells dead because im not a *. You hit people and move on expecting them to take death because thats the rules of the game. I almost view greened limbs as a cheap trick that allows fighters who should be dead to take shots at your back as your walking away, and if i do hit a guy who was blued rather than greened more than once, i look like a * because im hitting a guy, killing him, and then i keep hitting him after he is dead because i don't know his status. It makes me look bad because im hitting an already dead guy.

Its just a mess of really annoying and confusing green vs blue status issues that doesn't need to be confusing or annoying. Simplifying it to one type of damage with one way to portray it makes it easy, simple, and not confusing. If you feel differently thats cool, im not arguing or trying to convince you guys, im just trying to articulate how i see it.
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Re: Simplicity v.s. Complexity

Postby Rocca » Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:52 pm

~ Kade ~ wrote:If you feel differently thats cool, im not arguing or trying to convince you guys, im just trying to articulate how i see it.


I'm doing the same thing ;). Though I see your point - especially with the new fighters and the "cheating" or "mean" double tapping. At TNN, being on the University campus, we have A LOT of new fighters, like at least 5 a practice. We have also had that reaction a few times and to circumvent it we have made fliers, posters, perfected out introduction shpeel etc. However it still happens. We do have an advantage though of that BECAUSE we are on a campus we have become a staple so lots of our spectators know our rules and will explain it to frustrated newbs. But yes, your right, it does happen.
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Re: Simplicity v.s. Complexity

Postby No'Vak » Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:47 pm

Dangling an arm always looks way different than behind the back too...
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Re: Simplicity v.s. Complexity

Postby Isk » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:07 am

Kade, you just articulated one of the reasons I support this change pretty well. Personally, I have decided the only solution to the "maybe they've got a green injury" situation is "when in doubt, overkill." If I don't, I risk getting back-hacked or at a minimum losing my advantage while I wait to see if they die. If I know the other limb is hacked, I don't need to overkill, but if I'm not sure, I'll make sure I hacked two limbs or the body myself. This is what I teach others to do. IMO, this is the only viable solution to this little rules idiosyncrasy and some people need to calm down and accept that unless they yelled dead or fell over it is perfectly appropriate for someone to keep hitting them.

I see the negatives when bringing in noobs and the confusion in the middle of a grind as more weighty than the minimal degree of variety green damage adds to the game.
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Re: Simplicity v.s. Complexity

Postby Plithut » Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:09 pm

I would be willing to bet money on; if the current rules got changed to reflect the green/blue damage as the same type today, within a year or two we would be revisiting the rules regarding spears/archery/greens again due to change. I GUARANTEE that if the rules get changed you will see less and less Red Users, Florentiners, and you would almost never see armor. Why would I want to wear anything that would encumber me that conveys even less protection than it does under the current rule set? Oh, and you think archers are bad NOW? The explosion of archers and spear users because of this rule change would be nauseating.

If anything I see these pushes to change the rules as a further step away from looking medieval. I agree with others when they say learn shot variety with different weapons styles. I agree that it is more the problem of realms not teaching their fighters the proper fighting mechanics than a problem with the rules. The rules are already easy enough as is.

And since we seem to have 3 topics regarding the same conversation I am just going to copy and paste my reply into all of them.
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