Results of green testing at Rhun Closer

[bo1]

Hello everybody! This is Salamander, posting via Bo, as he has permission to post here, and I don't.
I am posting up the results of the questionaire that we passed out during Rhun Closer. The goal of this exercise was to attempt to understand how changing the current standing rules would affect Belegarth. We felt that the discussions were going in circles, and that action would be the best course. We now present to you the results.

TL;DR: Go play in General Mayhem.


The rules we tested out were as such: Single green will do one point of damage. Stabs will count count toward limb total and effect armor.
We did not change arrows, as it was felt that it was better to concentrate on one thing at a time.

We asked four questions, and then invited people to comment with their own observations or opinions.
I did my best to accurately interpret each persons opinion. Some were quite ambiguous, and rather than err on either side of the debate, I marked them for neither side. While it would be hard to show all the surveys we received, I will do my best to answer any questions we receive about them.

Here are the tallied results. Beneath that will be any of the more helpful/interesting comments. Those were defined by an answer that was more than two or three words, and seemed to have something to say.

1. Did you like the suggested green rules?

31 responded positively.

13 responded negatively.

14 responded that they had no idea what was going on, were unclear in their opinion, or were undecided.

Comments:
" Yes, but I don't think I fought enough to feel the full effect."
"Suggestions of any sort are all right!"
"Armor damage-yes. Limb death-no"

2. Do you feel like the suggested rules were easier or harder to understand than the current ones?

29 responded positively.

4 responded negatively.

7 responded that they had no idea what was going on, were unclear in their opinion, or were undecided.

18 responded that they felt it was the same.

Comments:
"Uniformity in hit classification"
"They are harder because they make me forget the count on my armor."
"Easier-fewer hit categories."

3. How hard do you think it would be for Belegarth to transition to the suggested rules?

31 responded positively

15 responded negatively

12 responded that they had no idea what was going on, were unclear in their opinion, or were undecided.

Comments:
"Hard, because there will be much controversy. Also, old school fighters should be able to stay old school."
"Medium-more smaller events like this one would help people get used to it before using it at big events."
"Are people with 'important' opinions going to discuss it on the intarwebs?"
"Really **** hard, people are *!"
"New schism/clash/separation"
"Harder for vets, less so for newbs."

4. Would you rather keep the old rules, or switch to the suggested ones?

28 responded new rules.

16 responded olds rules.

14 responded that they had no idea what was going on, were unclear in their opinion, or were undecided.

Comments:
"Switch to armor damage, not limbs counting toward death. Also, bring arrows into same type of damage."
"I don't know yet, open to change, but still on the fence."

Overall comments:
"What's the point of armor? Spears and similar weapons are too powerful."
"I like the idea, but it needs some tweaking."
"Wouldn't a one handed stab be to light to pierce armor?"
"Overpowers spears and arrows."
"Leave it as is, but let single green take one armor point."
"I feel the new rules give to much power to spear-men."
"I like how arrows weren't affected."
"Made for quicker game-play."
"I saw both sets of rules being used at the same time, but no one really seemed to have issues on the field. More trials."
"I like one green= one blue. Much clearer."

One thing we did learn for sure, is that one mustn't assume that people are going to read the rules. If we were to try this again, we would make sure that there was a hand out, for those who might arrive late, or not read up at all.

[Sir Anastasia]

Thank you to everyone who worked hard to put on this little study. This is very informative and a better way to play-test ideas.

[Isk]

Thank you to everyone who worked hard to put on this little study. This is very informative and a better way to play-test ideas.

Truth.

Thanks for bringing some valid data from everyone at the event rather than just a smattering of opinions from the folks on the board.

[Forkbeard]

I'm surprised that we had more peope at Sam Hain.
I thought Rhun closer was a bigger event. I am continualy impressed by the growth in the west. Yay.
Our response out here was overwelmingly negative. While you guys definetly got more positive responses, I think a wider sectionof the peope need to have a chance to test this.
More, Bigger events.
It looks to me, though, that there were 30 people at this event who were for it at the begining and 5 of them changed their minds after trying it. And no one who didn't like it at the begining changed their minds.
FB

[Loptr]

Our response out here was overwelmingly negative. While you guys definetly got more positive responses, I think a wider sectionof the peope need to have a chance to test this.

The growth of westside events is **** AWESOME.

I question this statement Fork. We clearly have different horses in this race and I feel this is a good thing. The limited responses of here indicate a mixed decision some in favor some against. My conversations with people were mostly positive for the single green = blue.

It is a good idea to run a questionaire and get opinnions from the paper as opposed to biased or vague recollection and the comments of a few online peeps.

The two issues need to be seperated into their own parts. Hopefully run in an unbiased manner. Props to the effort to gather information, thans Salamander.

Loptr

[Dane]

I thought Rhun closer was a bigger event. I am continualy impressed by the growth in the west. Yay.

It is. People were warded off by the foot of snow Wisconsin had forecasted (and received). The drive home was LOL. Also, those surveys only came from people who stayed for feast; many left early. "Weather" and all that.

One thing I noticed with the new rules was that battles certainly moved much faster. The biggest gain in effectiveness went to spears because of single-green to greaves and torso on the long-range oblique, but there were instances where being allowed to one-hand stab armored target areas paid dividends for my own SnB skirmishes.

Overall, the majority of the fighters adjusted to the rules change very well that day, and most people were very patient with reminding each other of the playability change.

[bo1]

ya, we had winter weather advisory warnings for the entire weekend. they forecast death and dismay all day for sat and into the night. even sunday had drift warnings and the state patrol stated, do not drive unless it is absolutely critical.

[Big King Jimmy]

Also, Samhain is a weekend event isn't it? The Western growth is impressive, I'm not disagreeing, but Rhun Closer is a single day.

[Forkbeard]

W're barly starting to break 100 people regularly at any of our events. I'm just excited.
I agree, we should have thought of having written surveys. That was clever.
However, we continued to talk about this at practice for a few week after the event and our realms response is solidly in the negative. Same thing with the ED people I talked to after Sam Hain.
I'm just trying to say that while we didn't have written surveys, we didn't just assume what people though, either. We all talked extensivly(exauhstivly) about it, too.
FB

[Big King Jimmy]

I want to go to a yestaire (and other events I can't spell!) so bad...

[Isk]

And on the flip side of that coin, we've still been play-testing the change down here in St. George and we love it. We've been doing it for the last several months and have discussed it extensively as well. If this initiative dies we will switch back, but ALL of my fighters have expressed a preference to stay with 1h green = 1h blue.

Of course, we are a younger realm. My 'senior' fighters are all only pushing 2 years in Belegarth.

And Jimmy, I hear you. There's a lot going on out there that I'd love to experience.

[Rocca]

For comparison, I am wondering about the weapon composition between the two tested events - how many green capable swords were there? How many spears? How many javvies? (You guys did make javies count right? just not arrows?) Additionally, how many armored players were there?

Also, just as an idea, knowing what people's preferred weapon/armor set up is when they answered the survey would be useful. Future surveys should have people list it as well as answer questions. That way we would know if it was liked/disliked across the board or only by players who use spears, etc.

[Tiberius Claudius]

I second what Rocca came up with, as well as want to push for the idea of a uniform questionnaire that will cover all of the key questions without bias that can be printed off like a generic waiver and used at any event.

Soemthing for WC to create or just those who have a dog in this fight?

[Tulio]

For comparison, I am wondering about the weapon composition between the two tested events - how many green capable swords were there? How many spears? How many javvies? (You guys did make javies count right? just not arrows?) Additionally, how many armored players were there?

To answer your question about Closer, I would say 80-90% of weapons where green. We had about 4-6 spears running around and 4-6 reds at any given time.


During the last month of play testing at practice I have been a huge fan of the rule change. During the even I used a spear the whole time and now it makes me think about how it really will effect the game.

[Salamander]

Well, all this was the point. We have some new info, and it gave those who have never played the suggested rules, a chance to. I liked how it worked out, though if I did it again, I would try and create a bit longer of a survey, probably with more targeted questions.
We had total of 77 people singed in, including God. Much better than we had feared, what with the weather and all.

It was also suggested that we should test it out more at smaller events. I like this idea. It gives a chance to tweak the rules, for more people to get used to them in an easier setting. A larger field would be much better, of course, to play with, but I doubt any large event would be willing to potentially sacrifice attendance numbers. I'd like to see a few more play-testings go down.

[Forkbeard]

For eneryones info, we had about 95% stabbing weapons at Sam Hain. We check stab tips the way they do in Arnor.
FB

[Acorn]

How's this for a standardized questionnaire? feedback please:

http://www.4shared.com/document/qNnJl9N ... ire_1.html

[Ignatius]

I like how it reads. There are some spacing issues where it looks like the format shifted somehow when it was converted to pdf or something. Not a bit deal, but still there.

Also maybe it should specify whether double green = blue or not just to be totally clear.

That's all I saw on a quick read through. Good work!

[Acorn]

Thanks.

and yeah, i just went and looked at the pdf version. there are a TON of * up. that is lame. i'll fix that. good idea with the double green clarification.

[Acorn]

From Tiercel, who doesn't have access. he pm'd this too me and i thought it brought up a good point:

Initial response is this - you don't have any places where people can express their thoughts. You just have multiple choice. The options for "why don't you like this" don't cover any of the reasons why I don't like the rule change. They only cover what the loudest people on the forum put forth as reasons. Nobody against the stabbing rule change says "it makes the game too simple." That seems to be a reason suggested by people who are for the change, and want something to argue against.



As i told him, i intentionally didn't include a thoughts section because i feel that having people write in thoughts makes it hard to get quantifiable data and leaves the response up to interpretation. however, i am not completely set against not including a thoughts section. just my opinion. I am hoping to give enough options to choose from to get clear and concise data that covers most opinions however, so i asked him to tell me his reasons so i could take them into account and perhaps make another option.

and as too the "nobody's against the stabbing rule because it makes it too simple" i actually feel like that, so there is someone at least who feels that way. lol. but that is besides the point.

anywho. working on fixing the formatting when i get a chance. at work. so we'll see if i get it done.

[Ignatius]

I have to agree that a thoughts/comments/opinions section is beneficial. It doesn't fall into the quantifiable data accumulation that we are looking for, however it gives room for new and potentially insightful additions to the discussion.

I don't know the exact percentage of the sport who is actually active on the boards, even less the amount that contributes in this forum or reads it. I'd bet the percentage is low though. The people who are not on the boards have just as pertinent ideas on the sport as anyone else though and an open comment section would give them a voice if they have anything productive to add.

Bottom line, it's not a big thing to add and it could at the least prove entertaining to read what people right. Best scenario we get a totally new and super awesome idea to through into the debate.

[Isk]

It looks good Acorn, thanks for putting this together. At least to me, it would be clearer if you referred to death by dismemberment in the limb shot descriptions:

Death by dismemberment (DbD) is the rule that results in death after two blue or red shots to limb targets.

Current rules: Green damage disables a limb target, but does NOT contribute to DbD. Green weapons are negated by armor unless used two handed.

Changed rules: Single handed Green strikes (i.e. stabbing damage NOT FROM A PROJECTILE) count toward DbD and damage armor as a blue weapon. Green = Blue.

[Salamander]

Yes, I much like the option of more definable and countable data. It's easier to present to the masses, and our first survey did lack clarification. I do like being able to have comments sections though. I felt the the comments were what really clarified peoples opinions. If they didn't do at least that, you'll likely get something amusing to read instead!

[Acorn]

Updated:

[Isk]

Nice, Acorn. The only suggestion I would make at this point is to try messing with the font, line-spacing and margins so we can get it on one page front and back. IME, if each of these is three pages, they are going to get separated and lost.

[Acorn]

hmmmm... good point. i could probably do that. just a sec.

EDIT:

here's the same thing on 2 pages:

[Ignatius]

Don't know if it's all that important to anyone, but should we have a clarification on the fighter name line that they only have to give their name if they want to. The name seems to only be needed if we have a question about something they said, but it might get a more honest response if we tell them they don't have to put their name to their thoughts.

[Arrakis]

http://www.scribd.com/ might be a better upload site.

Good form, though some of the suggested reasons seem to be very leading. I offer no solutions.