Studded Cloth Armor

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Studded Cloth Armor

Postby The Great Gigsby » Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:13 pm

In response to this thread on the armory forum: viewtopic.php?f=107&t=36940

I know this discussion has been had before, but it's winter and I'm gonna dredge it up again. This is *. I don't think the spirit of the rules were meant to encourage this kind of cheesiness. I've noticed a trend of min/maxing the rules for composite armor and I think we need to look at how to stop this armor from getting on the field.

I'm specifically referring to studded armor on cloth backing, ring mail, and the like. Armor that offers very little encumbrance, zero protection in a sword fight, and no historical likeness should not pass as armor.
-Giggles

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Re: Studded Cloth Armor

Postby Kage » Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:56 pm

I don't know but I think the marshals that are passing it need to be taught what makes up armor.

Considering the rules regarding composite armor checking:
BoW wrote:3.1.7. Composite - Armor constructed of both metal and leather.

3.2. Armor must be passed by Marshals from two separate realms, assuming an inter-realm event.

3.7.2. Composite Armor must be identifiable as Armor by appearance.


I would say that this is problem due to bad mashaling.

However, it's not just the marshals who broke the rules by allowing it but also the people who made it.

BoW wrote:1.4. Creative interpretation of the rules to gain any advantage is discouraged. These rules are intentionally sparse to allow for ease of use. The Marshal, according to these rules, and medieval foam combat precedent, settles all disputes.


Now I don't see a need to add anything to the rules considering what Composite Armor is defined as. See rule 3.1.7 above. Anyone claiming that there thumb tac shirt is legal is a moron and they should have read the rules. Sorry if I sound crabby, but I'm seriously tired of stupid * debates. A cloth shirt with metal on it is NOT armor nor will it ever count as armor in my opinion; end of story. As for anyone who claims it is armor your realm leader should be taken out back and shot, because he failed to do his job in teaching you how the sport works; mean while you should be placed in front of every one and beaten with a hose.

Secondly armor if made right isn't encumbering. I have a friend who does backflips in his SCA plate. I'm not talking made with plastic; that doesn't fly in my area its all steel or get made fun of until you have it.

Probably going to post this in the other thread too.
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Re: Studded Cloth Armor

Postby The Great Gigsby » Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:24 am

Kage, if you follow a strict by the book reading of our rules, a carpet tack t-shirt is passing armor. Precedent has shown that we're tolerant of non-protective, non-period armor, leather glued to a t-shirt being the example that gets tossed around a lot. I wouldn't have a problem with a marshal with balls telling someone their min/maxed studded armor doesn't cut it but right now I don't see anything being done about it.

We don't allow azon, why should we allow LARP armor?
-Giggles

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Re: Studded Cloth Armor

Postby Cade » Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:22 am

I'm with Giggles on this one.

It's not the realm leaders fault, nor the guy making the armor. Right now studded cloth or soft leather is passing armor according to the rules. Marshals and realm leaders passing this crap are not to blame.

We simply don't have rules that are current. When Bel was formed, we basically borrowed the Dag ruleset which was based on playing as a Larp. The games have shifted away from being a Larp, and started becoming more of a sport. When that happened, people started minmaxing a rule set that was never designed with min maxing in mind.

The rules have to match the culture. If people are looking more to have fun, develop a character, and actually behave as if they are in a medieval setting, then our rule set is fine for that. It is a set of guidelines to keep people on the right track, not rules for a sport. Since we are more of a sport now, we have to realize that people are going to try and ride as close to the edge as they can when it comes to things that give you an advantage. I.E. armor.

The composite section of the armor rules needs to be redone to define a little better what we want composite armor to be.
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Re: Studded Cloth Armor

Postby Forkbeard » Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:48 am

What we need is a quality standard for armor.
Cloth armor sure as **** exsisted. It was used all over the **** world at different times.
Since we don't have any kind of quality standard, people can wear a t-shirt with tacs all over it. They can wear 3/16" of soft elkskin made into a shirt.
The cloth is not the problem. Is the acceptance of ANYTHING that is made from "the right materials" and lacks sharp edges.
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Re: Studded Cloth Armor

Postby Oznog » Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:54 pm

Cloth was most definitely practical armor. And it worked quite well overall. In Europe, the blades were often not made very sharp for practical reasons (the edge would nick or roll over quickly upon steel-to-steel contact) and it can be quite difficult to cut through thick cloth.

In fact cloth was shown to have later-period use because it was largely bulletproof.

Some pics of buttonhole jack armor. This type isn't well known but may have been quite common.

Rings were indeed used as armor.

Studs were not. Studs were the visible attachment points for internal brigandine plates. Theater costuming would simply place outer studs of course, and somewhere in fantasy writing or early D&D someone made the mistake of thinking the studs themselves were armor.

IIRC there's like one bizarre example of "studded armor", where they were so dense they were adjacent. This example probably survived because it was a prototype which never saw any field use due to it being a really bad idea. It's heavy, time consuming to make, prone to tearing up the foundation layer, and provides relatively little protection since blades can easily go between the studs.
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Re: Studded Cloth Armor

Postby The Great Gigsby » Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:02 pm

Forkbeard wrote:What we need is a quality standard for armor.
Cloth armor sure as **** exsisted. It was used all over the **** world at different times.
Since we don't have any kind of quality standard, people can wear a t-shirt with tacs all over it. They can wear 3/16" of soft elkskin made into a shirt.
The cloth is not the problem. Is the acceptance of ANYTHING that is made from "the right materials" and lacks sharp edges.
FB
Actually, I would have no problem seeing padded jacks counted as armor. Even stuff like linothorax would be okay with me. But we're not talking about that. I'd like to see something done to stop "studded armor" and similar cheese from hitting the field.

For the record, I think all leather armor should be hardened, otherwise it's just a costume.
-Giggles

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Re: Studded Cloth Armor

Postby Arrakis » Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:40 pm

Herp Derp exercise your marshallate authority by just **** faliing **** that exploits 1.4 and shouldn't pass.

Also, pass any armor you think is valid armor whether it's metal/leather or not. You can do that. Legally.
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Re: Studded Cloth Armor

Postby duckymcfeelgood » Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:37 pm

Arrakis wrote:Herp Derp exercise your marshallate authority by just **** faliing **** that exploits 1.4 and shouldn't pass.

Also, pass any armor you think is valid armor whether it's metal/leather or not. You can do that. Legally.


Giggles wrote:For the record, I think all leather armor should be hardened, otherwise it's just a costume.


Well said, both of you.
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Re: Studded Cloth Armor

Postby Kage » Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:46 pm

Giggles wrote:Kage, if you follow a strict by the book reading of our rules, a carpet tack t-shirt is passing armor.
~ Kade ~ wrote: Right now studded cloth or soft leather is passing armor according to the rules

Soft leather yes, but no where do I see it say anything about cloth in the BoW. Reason I ask is it's composite armor which is defined as Armor made from leather and metal in the BoW.

Forkbeard wrote:Cloth armor sure as **** exsisted. It was used all over the **** world at different times.

Linothorax was the **** and it probably is the only passing cloth armor our sport would support, but I have some thoughts.

Arrakis wrote:Herp Derp exercise your marshallate authority by just **** faliing **** that exploits 1.4 and shouldn't pass.

This. The marshals need to grow a pair and enforce the rules.

Adding rules that defines cloth armor and what to check for could possibly help but I doubt it. Yes, I just pretty much stole the Leather rules and reworded them.
Changes wrote:Cloth - Armor constructed of layered or laminated/glued cloth.
Cloth Armor can only be counted as Armor if the cloth is layered or laminated/glued to a thickness of 3/16" and semi rigid.
Cloth Armor must be identifiable as Armor.
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Re: Studded Cloth Armor

Postby Cade » Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:52 pm

Kage wrote:
Changes wrote:Cloth - Armor constructed of layered or laminated/glued cloth.
Cloth Armor can only be counted as Armor if the cloth is layered or laminated/glued to a thickness of 3/16" and semi rigid.
Cloth Armor must be identifiable as Armor.


I really like this and i fully support this addition or an addition like it.

With this, as long as the cloth was 3/16" it doesn't matter what you stick to it. Studs or otherwise.

Problem is that this still doesn't address the current studded cloth armor out there. Is studded cloth armor legal? Is cloth a legal backing for metal or leather plates and or studs? Or should our marshals be failing armor constructed with a cloth backing because its not mentioned in the rules as an option.
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Re: Studded Cloth Armor

Postby Kage » Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:47 pm

Plus it would be hot as **** and it wouldn't matter what cloth you made it out of if done right. Heat wise it would be encumbering enough. That will be like wearing a sweatshirt in triple digit heat, but that's just my opinion.
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Re: Studded Cloth Armor

Postby Kage » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:53 pm

bumping this.
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Re: Studded Cloth Armor

Postby Oisin » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:11 pm

Nah, it just takes a little bit of creative interpretation on the marshal's part to find an equally good argument that studded cloth isn't legal.

3.1.7. Composite - Armor constructed of both metal and leather.

3.5. The minimum thickness for leather Armor is 3/16 inch. The minimum thickness requirement can be achieved by layering up to two pieces of thinner leather.

3.6.2.2. [Metal armor must be made] Using a material with a thickness of at least 20 gauge.

Composite armour is made using metal and leather. There are rules for how thick leather and metal must be to count as armour. If a particular set of, say, studded cloth armour is overly cheesy, fail it for not being made of metal AND leather. Or for the metal being thinner than 20 gauge.

That being said . . . a real brig or coat of plates with steel plates and a cloth shell? I'd pass it in a heartbeat, with compliments.
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Re: Studded Cloth Armor

Postby No'Vak » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:13 pm

Oisin wrote:Nah, it just takes a little bit of creative interpretation on the marshal's part to find an equally good argument that studded cloth isn't legal.

3.1.7. Composite - Armor constructed of both metal and leather.

3.5. The minimum thickness for leather Armor is 3/16 inch. The minimum thickness requirement can be achieved by layering up to two pieces of thinner leather.

3.6.2.2. [Metal armor must be made] Using a material with a thickness of at least 20 gauge.

Composite armour is made using metal and leather. There are rules for how thick leather and metal must be to count as armour. If a particular set of, say, studded cloth armour is overly cheesy, fail it for not being made of metal AND leather. Or for the metal being thinner than 20 gauge.

That being said . . . a real brig or coat of plates with steel plates and a cloth shell? I'd pass it in a heartbeat, with compliments.


Aren't rivets thicker than 20 gauge?
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Re: Studded Cloth Armor

Postby Oisin » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:18 pm

Snap rivets are a tube of much, much thinner metal. If you were to smash one flat it'd add up to thicker . . . but there's no provision in the rules for layering metal. Solid copper rivets are made of thicker than 20 gauge wire, but then you can rule that since they're not mail they're to be measured on the surface using sheet gauges, under which gauging criteria they fail.

I promise you that with a little bit of forethought you can find a way to creatively apply the standards in such a way to legitimately fail any cheesedick armour. It's not about the rules being there, it's about having the balls and the social support to actually do it.
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Re: Studded Cloth Armor

Postby Cade » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:59 pm

The problem with creatively applying the rules is that it looks like you are failing it because you don't like it. It may be a valid reason, and it may be legal, but it looks bad, which is a concern to people who may not understand why you are failing their armor. Appearance matters unfortunately.

In any case, by the rules that are on the books now its being passed, and so i think that if your going to fail it, it should be under rules that are currently in the book. To find a creative way to fail armor may be legal, but its a slippery slope.
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Re: Studded Cloth Armor

Postby Forkbeard » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:34 pm

Where? Where is cloth with studs being passed as armor?
I defie you to provide ONE example of this. Pictures required.
This is a total non issue. No one has ever done it. They only talk about it on the internet and then they get told not to do it.
IF, and its a pretty **** large IF, someone showed up with a t-shirt covered in tacks, it would fail. Anywhere. If you rules * tried to say"well it TECHNICLY passes sooo" I will personally tear it from the kid and burn it.
IF, and this is even more unlikely, someone make a 15 layer or so jack, or some glue hardend linen armor, it will pass, or I'll light YOU on fire for failing it.
Why is it wrong to mainpulate the rules a little to fail ****? The * trying to get it passed is doing exactly the same kind of * rules lawyering to get it passed. Turning the tables on them is fine by me.
So I say we leave **** alone.
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Re: Studded Cloth Armor

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:46 pm

Studed cloth is not armor.

3.1.7. Composite - Armor constructed of both metal and leather.

I see nothing in there saying cloth can be part of composite armor. Cloth and leather doesn't make armor by the letter of the rule. Composite armor must be leather and metal, not cloth. By our rules ninja brig souldn't count.
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Re: Studded Cloth Armor

Postby Forkbeard » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:57 pm

AHH but it is legal. There is no rules about how you suspend the armor material. Only that a layer of leather, 3/16" thick, must cover 2/3 of the area. Ninja brig works becuase of this concept..
We could try to attack the gaps between the pieces, but how big of a hole in leather make it not count? and if other leather has gaps between plate does it auto fail? Why not?
Ninja brig is a clever wedge in the gap in our rules that we cant get rid of unless we change some serious stuff.
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Re: Studded Cloth Armor

Postby Loptr » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:41 pm

Here is a ruleset to take a look at as a way to see how the issues have been addressed by others. This addresses a number of the questions being tossed around right now. When you review the ruleset there are clear penalties for shoddy workmanship. This is a very easy to start pressing the "quality armor" adn eliminating the * (IMHO). This is not a cut n paste option for Bel, but it has a lot of gems worthy of discussion.

I know the BOW is based off of the KISS concept. Marshalls with sack can manage their fields. However, peer pressure, cronyism whatever does make a pretty large loop hole to drive a bus through. There should be no need to manipulate rules that is expressly forbidden, it either passes or it doesn't.
I remember seeing a rather hideous lime green naugahideish/furniture leather studed vest being used as armor. This **** passed at Samhain or got snuck on the field. I am fairly certain the spirit of the ruleset was never designed to allow this kinda Velveeta to exist. It is happening regardless of all the sack up speeches in the world. So I guess my question is do we leave the BOW alone or do we add a few layers to reduce the *.

These are the base armors: Base Thickness Points
Padded cloth ................................................4 layers
Quilted cloth........................................2 layers + padding
Light leather ...............................................1/16 inch
Heavy leather..............................................3/16 inch
European ‘4 in 1’ chain mail................ 1.22mm (18-gauge)
Augmented chain, riveted chain........... 1.22mm (18-gauge)
Brigandine, double mail, or lamellar .... 1.22mm (18-gauge)
Plate ................................................... 1.22mm (18-gauge)
These materials can be added to increase non-metallic armor values:
Cuir bouilli .................................................... N/A
Rings.......................................................... 1/8 inch
Studs .................................................. 1.22mm (18-gauge)
Scales, Hardened Leather ............................3/16 inch
Scales, Metal ...................................... 1.22mm (18-gauge)
Construction additions and subtractions:
Non-authentic materials .............................See Below......... -1 to -2
Poor workmanship .....................................See Below......... -1 to -4
Shoddy and/or artificial appearance ............See Below......... -1 to -2
Heavy gauge material .................................See Below............. +1
Superior construction .................................See Below.........+1 to +2
Armor Descriptions
Padded cloth: four layers of cloth sewn together.
Quilted cloth: two layers of cloth with padding in between sewn together.
Light leather: leather of at least 1/16” thickness.
Heavy leather: leather of at least 3/16” thickness.
Chain armors: must have an internal diameter of, at most, 3/8 of an inch. Baseline chain armor consists of butted
links.
Augmented chain: chain augmented in some fashion from the standard ‘4 in 1,’ such as plates attached to each
other by chain, or any of the Persian/Chinese weaves.
Riveted chain: chain in which all the links have been individually riveted together.
Lamellar: plates that have all been joined in an overlapping fashion by cord or chain link.
Brigandine: closely spaced or overlapping plates riveted between two layers of leather.
Double mail: ‘8 in 2,’ or a mail in which a standard pattern is woven with two rings replacing every single ring.
Plate: solid metal armor with riveted metal articulations to increase mobility. Example: Lorica Segmentata.
Armor Definitions
Plates must be attached to each other or a backing in such a way that all four edges or corners are held into
continuous rigid contact with each other or the backing. Plates may be made of 3/16” hardened leather (instead of
steel) and receive a -1 to the total armor value. Plates as defined here are those that are used in Scales,
Brigandine, or other such armors and should not be confused with ‘Plate Armor.’
Cuir bouilli is the process by which leather is hardened using wax or other treatments to produce significantly
harder leather.
Studs are composed of metal, and must be no more than 1.5 inches apart to receive the bonus. Studs may not be
added to metal armor.
Rings are composed of metal (not to be confused with chain mail), and must be at least 1/8 inch thick, have an
internal diameter of at least 1 inch and no greater than two inches, and be placed no further than 1.5 inches apart
to receive the bonus. Rings may not be added to metal armor.
Scales are composed of metal or 3/16” hardened leather, and must be overlapping. Scales may not be
added to metal armor. Scales need only be attached to the armor along one edge.
Gambeson (sometimes referred to as an arming coat) resembles a quilted, close fitting tunic that minimally extends
from the thighs of an individual to their elbows, excluding their head and neck.
A gambeson must be the equivalent of at least quilted cloth with cotton batting
padding in between the layers.


Edit for better viewing color.
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Re: Studded Cloth Armor

Postby Forkbeard » Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:34 am

While i appreciate your point, lopter, that is a multi point armor system. We donot do that.
And the armor you mention from sam hain was made of 1/8" leather with studs spaced 3/8". It is completely legal with out cheesing the rules at all.
cloth armor is going to have to be at least 15 layers or I will not vote for it. I will vote against this anyway unless one of you mak some stellar argument I haven't thought of yet.
If you guys want to take soft leather away from armor, I'm down with that BUT there are going to be alot of anrgy people who's armor is suddenly illegal.
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