a message came to me, and i am forwarding.

[bo1]

Bo,

While checking shields at WPO this year I came across an interesting problem:

Two of the shields I tested had metal handles for the hand grip. Feeling they were unsafe, I discussed the problem with Thorn(?) and Morpheus, who both agreed that for safety the shields should fail. The safety issue was that if one were to reach beyond another fighter and catch them with the handle (such as in the shoulder, or arm), they could seriously hurt them. Thorn(?) demonstrated this on me, and I assure you that it hurt like heck for the rest of the day, or at least up until the ibuprofen kicked in.

So, my point. I cannot post in the Rules Discussion and Development board, but I feel that this is an important point that should be brought up. With the popularity of solid shield handles, it's only a matter of time before more of these solid metal handles make their way onto the field. Would you be able to post in my stead, as I lack the authority to do so? If you'd be uncomfortable doing so, that's perfectly fine, and I can post it in another board, and ask an admin to move it for me later.

Many Thanks,

Thurat of Knightfall

[bo1]

i know that we ended up passing the small buckler after the fact, just informing the gentlemen that misuse of this type of handle would not be advised.

i see the concern, but honestly to get hit with the metal handle of a shield means that most likely you are being punched as well. and while metal is harder than flesh, intelligent use of items isn't as clear cut as it should be.

i don't mind a metal handle on a strap or punch, but on bucklers it is pretty exposed. i don't believe this was a problem, i didn't here of it coming up later in the day.

as a checker we make decisions about safety, many times using judgment as an exact rule doesn't cover the area. in these cases the rule of 1 safety, 2 playability, 3 realism are all we have to make a judgment.

thoughts?

[Cyric]

Metal handles are probably fine, on a case by case basis. when they are in use, the person's had covers it, as long as it isn't too big it should be fine. obviously we can't say all metal handles fail or pass, but they are not expressly illegal.

Also, the Rules Discussion and Development board is here: viewforum.php?f=66

[Slagar]

I know that I, when checking, have passed shiels with several-inch-long exposed bolt ends. If stuff like that is meant to be allowed through, I don't see how this is any worse. I've always been taught that the person most likely to be injured by the back of a shield is the guy using it, and if he's willing to fall on those spikes, then so be it.

That's just my 2 cents, and I'd have no problem with that rule being changed, either. As is, though, I think passing it was the right call.

[Arrakis]

It's no worse than being hit with the unpadded back of a wood-core shield. As long as it's not a handle made of like, raw-edged twisted scrap metal, pass it.

[calebmonkey]

I'd say we would have to take it to a case by case basis.There is a big difference between a cupboard or drawer handle and someones homemade crappy jagged handle made out of shelving brackets and rusty re-bar they found in the road.

[Sir Anastasia]

I fail bolt projections from shields and provide foam and tape for the owners to cover them up. I have been cut up pretty bad from them if on my own shield. Although this is a user beware issue, having someone bleeding on the field is a potential risk to more than just the person using the bad equipment. I feel these sorts of things should be failed for that reason.

[Cyric]

bolts sticking out =/= metal sheild handles.

bolts sticking out should generally be an auto fail if they are not covered.

[bo1]

not an auto fail unless they protrude .5 or more.

[Kage]

Two of the shields I tested had metal handles for the hand grip. Feeling they were unsafe, I discussed the problem with Thorn(?) and Morpheus, who both agreed that for safety the shields should fail. The safety issue was that if one were to reach beyond another fighter and catch them with the handle (such as in the shoulder, or arm), they could seriously hurt them. Thorn(?) demonstrated this on me, and I assure you that it hurt like heck for the rest of the day, or at least up until the ibuprofen kicked in.

How if they are holding on to the handle is this going to hit the person? I would have more of a problem with the shield lying on the ground and someone falling on it. If the shield is being used properly you would be hit with a fist not metal the way I see it. I'm pretty much of the same opinion as Arrakis.

bolts sticking out should generally be an auto fail if they are not covered.

not an auto fail unless they protrude .5 or more.

Are we talking about the nut or the bolt sticking out from the nut? If we are talking about the excess bolt then I totally agree. I even carry a mini hacksaw around at events for just such occasions. A bolt that is flush or more or less flush with a bolt isn't going to fail in my opinion.

[Cade]

Ignoring twisted scraps and jagged bolts and anything thats not specifically a metal handle, What is the difference between a metal handle and any other rigid, non strap, handle on every shield out there?

I can sorta kinda see Thorn's point on a buckler, because its easier, but you can do the same damage to anyone with any rigid handle on any size shield if you punch high and then bring it down on someones head/shoulder. Maybe rigid shield handles should be banned?

As far as falling on it...then you have to fail every single rigid handle on every shield out there simply because if you drop it on its face, and someone trips, any rigid handle is going to do some serious damage as long as its not inset into the shield.

Before a bandwagon forms here, our sport is full of equipment that, if misused, can cause great harm and damage to other people. It's sort of understood that accidents can and do happen. They happen rarely but they do happen. Not sure you can ever fully legislate that away.

[Arrakis]

Before a bandwagon forms here, our sport is full of equipment that, if misused, can cause great harm and damage to other people. It's sort of understood that accidents can and do happen. They happen rarely but they do happen. Not sure you can ever fully legislate that away.

Truth. I fist-slapped a spear haft today trying to wrap a spearman in close quarters and smashed my thumb pretty * good.

[Forkbeard]

Everyone i have ever taught to build a cored shield i have required to use those" chicago *" type bolts. Smooth allen head exposed and tube with threads in the shield.
It is nothing but stupid to use regular bolts and nuts. They sell the good one right next to the crap at the **** hardware store. People who do not use the right hard ware deserve to get cut up but their shield.
I also teach them to use leather handles. Hard handles are stupid, also. Andy they are, 95% of the time, used by the stupid and lazy because they have them layin arounf the garage.
That being said, i've never falied a hard handle. I have failed bolts that were like an inch and a half too long.
this is a non issue.
Fb