"Modern"

[Sir Morpheus]

There are A couple place in the BoW that use the word "Modern" i.e. The garb rules so I ask

What is the cut off "Modern"?

1700's, 1500's, 1300's, 7 BC?

Just looking for Opinions

[Forkbeard]

"Pre-gunpowder" is bandied about quite a bit.
So I always lean towards the 1300-1400ad.
Of course, we let pirates fight, and Samurai, so who the **** knows.
fb

[Sir Par]

Pre-gun powder doesn get thrown around a lot, but the ancient Chinese had gun powder a LONG time before we started shooting muskets. I like to think its anything before the gun became the primary weapon on the battle field for everyone, or where the sword fell by the wayside. Somewhere right around 1700.

[Soo Ma Tai]

I think it depends a bit on the culture you are representing, but as Par said, before firearms become the mainstay of warfare. So in Europe like Par said pre 1700's, but if you are talking Asian culture, you could easily go up to the mid 1800's in China, and possibly Japan as well, though I don't know that culture as well as Chinese.

It was my understanding that the reason "modern" was originally used was to keep out things like ray guns and light sabers, as well as commercial logos and trademarks. It also help stop arguements like my sword is a lightsaber so even though it's blue, it ignores armor. That sort of thing. These were all things I was told when I first started Dag back in the mid 90's. I don't know how true they are, but I feel my sources were pretty solid.

[Arrakis]

3.6.5
Appendix B
1.2.5
1.3.3
1.3.4
1.3.5

are the only rules with the word "modern" in them.

They all refer to things like "modern steel alloys" and "modern prints".

Mostly, I believe they refer to stuff from the last hundred years or two. But, please, God, make garb for the period before 1700 AD, at the latest.

[Sir Anastasia]

Just curious, as clearly I am not a goblin, but how does this apply to steam-punk like items, such as goggles or other things. I have seen some really cool looking goblins in steam punk goggles, and I imagine that there are other items classified as steam punk that could fit in the fantasy theme. Is this discouraged? case by case?

Thanks.

[Arrakis]

Steampunk is definitely not medieval fantasy and should be thoroughly discouraged. Spike is acceptable only because he's kind of a one-off.

[Sir Morpheus]

the reason for my post was mostly for enforcing Garb rules and people debating the historical validity of thier garb

[Forkbeard]

You're going to have to be specific.
What garb is trying to be passed off by whom. What is it? What is is "supposed" to be?
What era are we talking about?
Asking what IS allowed is very broad and open to interpretation. WHATIS NOT allowed is much easier to define.
Several of these peole are saying 1700s, but I strongly feel that dudes in cowboy outfits, mountain men, Brittish Re Coats and Revolutionary War dudes are all WAY TOO modern.
Fb

[Arrakis]

Fork, not 1700s. The year 1700. As in, 1600s are ok, 1700s are not.

But really, only SOME things from the early 1600s are at all acceptable. 1600s Zulu? Sure. 1600's British AKA hung out with Isaac Newton? No.

[Forkbeard]

I have always told people our cutoff was the begining of firearms in europe. Meaning cannon. Meaning ~1400. My own fantasy nonsense has always been based on Conan-esque early iron age *.
Samurai exsisted since 1100so they jive. Pirates are late, but they are fun and we let them slide.
That is how it was explained to me by the people playing when I started my realm and its what we tell everyone.
Obviously many people veiw this **** differently.
If were going to make it an official date, I think it should be 1600. That would be as inclusive as we need to be without getting into really modern stuff.
Fb

[Kraesh]

If were going to make it an official date, I think it should be 1600. That would be as inclusive as we need to be without getting into really modern stuff.
Fb

In the Amtgard rules of play it actually states a year and that's 1650 AD. So, you wouldn't be too far off of what Amt does, and to be honest it's probably smart because then people won't be like "Was this before gunpowder?". Having a defined date would help.

-Kraesh

[frazzgnarth]

As far as Steampunk and medieval fantasy are concerned. While Steampunk itself is generally set beyond the time frame we use to define what is modern and what is medieval, medieval fantasy has often included characters known as tinkerers. These essentially amount to engineers and were often portrayed very much in a Steampunk fashion.

For example, the gnomes of Dragonlance (very much a medieval fantasy setting) were tinkerers making steam powered inventions (granted they very rarely worked).

On second thought, and further investigation, it seems in most all cases, tinkerers in any fantasy setting seem to be gnomes... I think authors are being racist.

[Arrakis]

On further investigation, tinkerers are a * way to include steam engines and guns in your fantasy novel. It's cheating and it's not medieval fantasy the way Belegarth does it.

[Soo Ma Tai]

I feel that, like Spike does, and single piece or two of "steampunk" gear is ok, it's when the entire char. is steampunk/victorian based that it's no good. I can see for example, explaining a zippo away as a gnomish firestarter, or some goggles as mage glasses. But if you've got victorian clothes and steampunk gear all over, then you've gone way too far.

[frazzgnarth]

I can full well accept that. I was just having trouble reconciling the allowance of medieval fantasy without allowing all of it.

[Arrakis]

Think about it.

Steampunk is Victorian clothes and Modern technology. That's not medieval.

QED.

[Sir Anastasia]

I feel that, like Spike does, and single piece or two of "steampunk" gear is ok, it's when the entire char. is steampunk/victorian based that it's no good. I can see for example, explaining a zippo away as a gnomish firestarter, or some goggles as mage glasses. But if you've got victorian clothes and steampunk gear all over, then you've gone way too far.

Yeah, I think this is what I decided after doing some more research. Steampunk has some pretty cool items: lots of leather work, corsets, and many things that could also be medieval/fantasy, but it has a lot of the Edwardian/Victorian stuff too, and that would be inappropriate. Not that guys can tell too much difference between medieval and Edwardian corsets Spike, BTW looks incredibly cool in his stuff and I suspect his pics are exactly what I was thinking about. This would be a piece by piece decision.

[Arrakis]

Steampunk:



Not Appropriate for Belegarth.


Apologies to http://vladislausdantes.deviantart.com/

[Sir Anastasia]

Yes, that's the classic Victorian/Edwardian look that is after 1650.

[Big King Jimmy]

Are belegarth fighters, that pretty much hate getting lumped in with "larping" because we're the far left field of it, really deciding to take something very very very broad, like steam punk, and say "The way you define it is WRONG, and you're obviously trying to get this silly * in my game!" by pigeonholing it to one aspect of steam punk?

I think that gnomish tinkerers might be the coolest fantasy character of all time. If I could do some sort of crazy wood harness or if I had a pair of those **** awesome glasses with 15 different lenses to pick from or something, I would totally wear them (off the field.)

"Steam punk goggles" are just welders goggles. Did they have lenses and leather in medieval times? Then something that combines the 2 is fine. It's the same reason a pilots helmet is fine, it's a leather strapped leather helm.

[Arrakis]

No.

Kill yourself.

[Big King Jimmy]

Arrakis, it's a good thing you have about an * pimples worth of the clout you think you do in this game. Fastest way to be a *: Don't even acknowledge the other side of the argument. You have a lot in common with Saki a few years ago....

[Forkbeard]

I,ve been following this thread and it alter ego on the dag boards.
Its all about people Makin garb outside the time frame we are trying to play in.
While steam punk cosplay people are definetly outside our scope, Are people with goggles going to be hassled at events or made to leave the field? NO. No one cares.
Pirates, however, did exsist within our timeframe. And outside it. * been stealin from boats since the the 3rd * built a Boat(he robbed the other 2).
Samurai are in the same boat(hehehehe). The time frame for them goes from 1100 thru what, the 1800's?
I made all my samurai stuff from the earlier period, but who among you would know if it was from the late 1760's? And WHO the **** is goong to call me out on it? Who's gonna tell me I have to change at an event?
NO ONE.
People need to try to keep thing to make their OWN kits early period. We need to plan our OWN KITS around characters who don"t carry guns.
But what we really need to do is concentrate on the people in craptastic, failing garb. Their are enough scrubs on our field without hassling pirates and goblins in goggle who are obviously trying very hard.
Arrakis, you can get all abusive if you want, but are you really prepared to go get a herald and try to get a late period samurai kicked off the field? Or try to take spikes goggles away? Didn't think so.
This is yet another non issue. You guys are complaining about carpet color in a house that is not built yet.
fb

[Arrakis]

Did I say I would?

No.

I just said that steampunk cosplay is not acceptable garb for Belegarth by the rules.

[Nuri]

I also think that pre 17th century is a pretty good, but euro-centric, cutoff. Like Forkbeard, who is going to * that my garb is an anglamation of 16th-19th(!) century Ottoman?

On the other hand, the term modern is vague, and we are going to see things like victorian elements sneak through in the fantasy aspect. Our idea of medieval fantasy stems from the Victorians, it's only natural that a few elements will be there. Take a look at most of the corsets you'll see at an event. Very few will be a style seen even in the Elizabethan era, most are Victorian, but no one gives a **** because at least it's garb and an attempt.

I know that, in reality, "modern" is meant more to stop people from buying John Deere fabric and making it into a tunic and not my acute love of paisley print, but the vagueness bothers me too, particularly if we ever want to expand the usage/garb requirements into the "Society" portion of BMCS.

[Derian]

FWIW, paisley is a period print, though it pains me greatly to say it.

Edit: Maybe I should add some actual content to this post. While I'm all for clearing up inconsistencies and ambiguities in the rules, how many times has a situation described in this thread come up?

If you exclude excited new people who don't quite understand the game yet, has anyone ever had to deal with someone rolling onto an event field in full on steampunk gear?

[Arrakis]

Y'all do remember, by the by, that I'm a stickjock who wears belt-loop "hakama" with a surcoat and a hat I can't document, right?

I'm just talkin' 'bout the concept.

[Nuri]

FWIW, paisley is a period print, though it pains me greatly to say it.

Very true, brain dead from too much online shopping. Insert well loved but horribly not pre-1650 print instead.

an edit for your edit: Actually, yeah -- I swear lately I've seen some guy fighting in what more or less passes for * garb.

[Derian]

There's (rightfully so) some leeway, though. You might have some technically non-period paisley that works well with your garb which contrasts sharply with someone who thinks the goal of garb is to make yourself look as **** ridiculous as possible and has an mismatched paisley hakamas, tunic and tabard (Unfortunately a very true story).

[No'Vak]

You know what I think is awesome.

Hakama made out of flame fabric. Makes you run faster.

[Koom Di' Puts]

Hakama made out of flame fabric. Makes you run faster.

I tried this..... It did not work....

[Cade]

Your just not doing it right.

[calebmonkey]

IMO if you want to do away with iffy garb you have to take this off the main page

Most groups base themselves loosely on Tolkein's Middle Earth, but this isn't a requirement. You choose the character you want to portray; if you can dream it, you can do it.

thats like the second paragraph of the main page, and the way I read it,I can play anything from a cave man to a sith,and I've seen almost everything in between.now once you get into the rules you start seeing you can not dream than do it,you can't get nun-chucks(they will have to be flails,yes even if they are made from real nuns),you can't wear the blue jeans or a handful of other stuff,ect.

I know we keep the rules vague for a reason,but some stuff needs to be spelled the **** out if you want certain results

[Forkbeard]

Blackhawk say na-na na-na na-na.
And he's right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval
This is what Medieval Combat Society is suposed to be representing.
FB

[Big King Jimmy]

OMG, proven wrong by a wikipedia article! With absolutly no regard to common usage!

Belegarth is defined by its culture. You can push it what ever direction you want (the general 'you', not FB) but at the end of the day, it will be whatever the masses want it to be. If more of Belegarth wants it to be rubber band guns in star wars garb and brightly covered quaterstaves and blues, and WC votes on that, then that IS what Belegarth is. FB you've tried to tell me and everyone else for years what Belegarth is, but I say you're not the voice of the masses, in Belegarth really no one is. And no individual can define it.

[Big King Jimmy]

You can, however, lobby your case. And you do THAT like a god damned pro. But we're all just lobbiests wanting to swing stick the way WE want. Just as soon as you can say "if you want to do that, go find another game." I can say I love the sports direction I feel Belegarth is headed, and if you don't, you go find another game. :: shrug :: I'm just gonna keep riding the wave of what I feel are good changes.

[Forkbeard]

If this game went to star wars bules and q-staves and rubber band guns, I would gladly leave and either join or start another game. And you would come play it. You know you would.
I am not lobbying anything but what is on our sign, dude. b M C s.
The man asked for a definition of Medieval. There is one.
I don't feel like this game is going in any direction. It is the same as it was when I started, 10 years ago. There have really only been a few changes to weapon construction, and none to the dimetions of the weapons, which is the important thing. The only real rule changes have been to make things more hardcore. Like flail length limits and weapon weights. Thing actually used to be ALOT more flurby and gay.
Garb has only got better, despite a few bubles. Fighting skills have improved. Both on the lame * amtstyle end and the more realistic, heavy sword SCA tech end.
If we were to make this a contest of who is pushing things in what direction, I would say my team has been winning all along.
FB