Pinning the sword between the arm and body

[Kyrian]

This was a debate that came up at practice today. Let's say a person attempts to stab you with a sword. You turn your body just enough that it goes through the gap between your raised arm and your body. You immediately drop your arm and pin the sword with ONLY the flats coming in contact with your body. This is often a reflexive action to bring the arm in to protect the body. Would you lose the arm?

The relevant rule seems to be:

Gripping the striking surface of an opponents Weapon results in the disabling of that limb.

Note that 3.7.5 mentions "striking surface" which I would interpret as being the edges of the sword, not the flats.

However, this action could theoretically be interpreted as being illegal due to this rule:

Creative interpretation of the rules to gain any advantage is discouraged. These rules are intentionally sparse to allow for ease of use. The Marshal, according to these rules, and medieval foam combat precedent, settles all disputes.

If you were a marshal and witnessed this, would you call anything on the person who pinned his opponent's weapon?

Assuming you don't see a problem with the above action, how would you interpret that if the blade were to suddenly twist, such as if the person is attempting to pull the weapon out of the pin, causing the striking surface(s) to come in contact with the body and arm?

[Solusar]

When this happens to me I take the arm. I also try to not entrap the blade my dead limb, I just let it sit there until removed. I will not count them pulling their sword out as death unless it looks uber amazing. And it's not like they can't pull the sword away and stab again.

[Forkbeard]

I would take the arm.
Trapping the business end of an enemeies weapons with the artery-rich part of your underarm is aweful stupid IRL. In game it is pretty * cheesy. If I were the helard I would tell you to take the arm and stop trying to trap weapons.
If a person in my group did this regularly and broke the tip of my weapon doing it, I may hurt them a little for it.
FB

[bo1]

playability says it should be arm, we had a problem with this a long while ago in the realm. a guy would get hit near the arm pit and trap it and say it wasnt a hit. this would lead to a problem quickly i woulf figure. taking arm is the best method for detering this process.

saftey isnt a issue at all. but realism, the easiest artery to get to is the one under the arm. so you wouldnt want to do this as you bleed out in a minute or 2 from it.

[Peregrine]

at Mux we call that body, the greater of the two targets.

[Cyric]

at Mux we call that body, the greater of the two targets.

x2. i've always thought that was death.

So how about this: the person is wearing full armor. for the sake of argument, there is no gap in the armpit area that the weapon could get to. Is it then legal to pin a sword between your arm and body?

[Forkbeard]

No. On playability grounds.
Fb

[Sir Anastasia]

I think one of the reasons that you may not grab an opponents' (blade/striking surface/flats) is that equipment can be damaged in that situation and then could possibly be used to cause an injury when it is pulled away. In my realm, we tell people to take death for trapping a blade against the body, the greater of two targets. This tactic should be discouraged to prevent equipment damage during play.

[frazzgnarth]

In our realm, if a blade becomes so entrapped, we encourage people to extract it as quickly as possible. We consider it not legal to hold it there and if done so intentionally (e.g. for an extended period of time) then it is death. However, if the sword is held for a moment because someone brought their arm down after their opponent missed a stab, but is extracted shortly thereafter when he realizes it, then no harm is generally taken.

Just my two cents.

[Diomedes]

I think one of the reasons that you may not grab an opponents' weapon is that equipment can be damaged in that situation and then could possibly be used to cause an injury when it is pulled away. In my realm, we tell people to take death for trapping a blade against the body, the greater of two targets. This tactic should be discouraged to prevent equipment damage during play.

You can't grab a STRIKING SURFACE of an opponents weapon, but you can grab anything else, i.e. haft, handle, pommels, ect.

[Caleidah]

I think one of the reasons that you may not grab an opponents' weapon is that equipment can be damaged in that situation and then could possibly be used to cause an injury when it is pulled away. In my realm, we tell people to take death for trapping a blade against the body, the greater of two targets. This tactic should be discouraged to prevent equipment damage during play.

You can't grab a STRIKING SURFACE of an opponents weapon, but you can grab anything else, i.e. haft, handle, pommels, ect.

And that isn't the issue at hand. The whole thread has been discussion on a situation where you catch the striking surface.

Congrats on the reading comprehension skills.

[Diomedes]

I think one of the reasons that you may not grab an opponents' weapon is that equipment can be damaged in that situation and then could possibly be used to cause an injury when it is pulled away. In my realm, we tell people to take death for trapping a blade against the body, the greater of two targets. This tactic should be discouraged to prevent equipment damage during play.

You can't grab a STRIKING SURFACE of an opponents weapon, but you can grab anything else, i.e. haft, handle, pommels, ect.

And that isn't the issue at hand. The whole thread has been discussion on a situation where you catch the striking surface.

Congrats on the reading comprehension skills.

My reading comprehension is just fine, I didn't think that i needed to add my $.02 on it in favor of pointing out another mistake. If it makes you happy, though: If I accidentally catch a weapon by the striking surface in my armpit, I die. Greater of two wounds.

[Arrakis]

If you catch the flats of a weapon between your arm and your body, you should release it immediately and take death. It's poor form.

[Sir Anastasia]

Diomedes...word choice error...I meant striking surface/blade/flats, excluding parts legal for grabbing. Basically anything covered in fabric related to the striking surface should not be grabbed, because you can damage it if you wrestle over it. For example, you still could not clap your hands together and grab the flats of a blade (even though they technically aren't striking surfaces). I'll go back and edit.

[Loptr]

The Relevant rules as I can locate them.

3.7.5. Gripping the striking surface of an opponents Weapon results in the disabling of that limb.
and
1.1.1. Striking Surface - Padded surface of a Weapon designed to make contact with an opponent during combat. Only the Striking Surface of a Weapon may score a hit.
1.1.2. Non-striking Surface . Any padded surface of the Weapon that is not a striking surface.
1.1.3. Handle - Non-padded portion of the Weapon designed as a handhold.
1.1.4. Pommel - Non-striking Surface that covers the end of the Handle.

So this begs the question:

I have seen an individual successfully trap a blade in his hands on the flats. He did NOT contact the striking surfaces. He did gain brief control of the weapon. We are not expected to take flat shots and we can grapple.

I am not looking at exploting grey areas, I am seeking input on a section that is vague.

Not quite the same question as the arm pit, but very relevant to the conversation.

Loptr

[Arrakis]

I believe the intent of the rule was to prevent damage to the areas of a weapon designed to hit others, thus the reason for allowing hafts and other non-striking surfaces to be gripped. Thus, it could be more accurately stated as "Gripping any part of the striking length of a weapon...", meaning any surface or side of the linear portion of the weapon in which the striking surface(s) are found.

This is a personal interpretation but one that I have never heard disagreement over.

[Forkbeard]

Im with Arrakis here. Even if you CAN grab my blades flat areas without touching the edge, you can't do it and then do anything woth it without se3riously torquing on my foam.
So no touchy other peoples bladey bits.

Another example of this concept:
There are people who can catch real arrows. There are MANY people who can catch our arrows. It still isn't allowed.
FB