Modular arrows

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Modular arrows

Postby Glass » Wed May 18, 2011 12:21 am

1.4.8.6. All arrows must contain a perpendicular penny secured at the end of the shaft.


Modular arrows, to my knowledge, don't pass this rule, but they seem to be becoming more popular. They've passed at events though. If they're safe, why can't the rules be amended to reflect that?
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Forkbeard » Wed May 18, 2011 6:45 am

Eventauly they will.But it is going to take some time for the idea to spread around the country. The people who have the influence over the old school archery crowd are just getting good versions of these to disect and examine.
Give it time.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby varadin » Wed May 18, 2011 8:07 am

actually they pass by that rule, says "at the end of the shaft" not secured to the shaft.

its secured at the end of the shaft, to a piece of pvc normally, that's secured to the shaft. While I think this is rule lawyering to the empth degree, I have seen pleanty of safe modular arrows, I have also seen really **** attached ones that the head came off and the shaft buried into someones shield.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Forkbeard » Wed May 18, 2011 8:10 am

Varadin, Names and location. Pic's if you got em.
I've been hearing that urban legend for years and have never found a name of who it happened to OR the event it was at.
Some people SAY they were there, but they are always talkin **** and have no one to verify.

I'm not saying your making it up. I would love verification of this bigfoot sighting.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby varadin » Wed May 18, 2011 9:44 am

Let me do some digging, Happened once last year at a battle in the area here, The guy had a metal head modular system set up. Looked like a normal arrow but the whole head would twist off with enough torque. Not sure of whose shield it got lodged into but It was a very unsafe design. See if i can figure it out.

at rag 24 i know a broken shaft got lodged into someones shield because someone failed to do notice the break in a carbon arrow, When fire the shaft went forward the arrow head stayed. Most people talk about this when they think about it. Im pretty sure this happened to Dudley in the aratari unit Wolfpack. Though i could see someone just shooting an arrow at him sometimes.

Either way if you want more info ill Pm you with it because i hate to derail this thread more. Modulars can be pleanty safe, they tend to weigh more and fly worse but like all weapons are safe when built right.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby PhotoJoe » Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:11 am

Varadin wrote:i know a broken shaft got lodged into someones shield


And this was due to the use of a modular arrow head?
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby varadin » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:10 pm

you aren't very good at reading.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby PhotoJoe » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:52 pm

Varadin wrote:you aren't very good at reading.


It could be that, or perhaps I'm objecting to the mild derailment of this thread in a very mild way. But, now, both of us, with your unqualified assessment of my ability to read, and my response, are taking it further afield. Perhaps I'm in error here and I didn't realize this was a sub-forum of General Mayhem. If it is then perhaps we should exchange pointless insults for the next several days. Lay on?
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Big King Jimmy » Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:20 pm

This whole * board is Belegarth culture, and belegarth culture is very, very, very condescending and negative.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Rocca » Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:43 pm

Big King Jimmy wrote:This whole * board is Belegarth culture, and belegarth culture is very, very, very condescending and negative.


I have to disagree. The Bele boards have then bent, yes. But Bele culture is found on the field during events and practices and is NOT condescending and negative.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Big King Jimmy » Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:04 pm

A lot of this is east vs west, there's a lot less of it out west.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Big King Jimmy » Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:06 pm

Also, the sort of idea that I wouldn't know where Belegarth culture is found, amuses me. Not like, insults me or anything, and I know that's not even how you meant it. But trust me, I'm VERY familiar with Belegarth culture. We help eachother out, as a family, yes. But we're also quick to rip on eachother, and not always out of love.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Rocca » Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:30 am

*shrug* maybe in Illinois.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Big King Jimmy » Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:26 pm

Right, because the west is all kitten and butterflies. No one ever talks ****.

Oh wait that's right, I WENT to a chaos wars, and got into a fist fight. And listened to people talk **** about other people, all week, behind their backs. Just like any other event.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby calebmonkey » Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:02 pm

wait you got into a fist fight at chaos?I'd love those details before i buy a plane ticket
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Big King Jimmy » Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:43 pm

Oh ****, don't worry, pull the trigger. The event was amazing for sure. Come to 'Geddon, I'll tell you a story.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby calebmonkey » Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:53 pm

deal?
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Sir Anastasia » Sat Jun 04, 2011 9:33 pm

They fail modular heads at Chaos if they know that they are modular, but the designs I am aware of have a washer round (a little larger than a penny). I guess if they came unscrewed they would be dangerous, but you can check them to see if they twist; they shouldn't move at all. It's a weird topic for me because we have had them since 2001, and of course no arrow heads have ever have fallen off, nor has there been any injury by them. I am always suspicious of them though.

BTW: I heard the same "story" about an arrow, but in the version I heard it was a hunting tip w/o a penny (not modular) that had been built up as a Bel arrow and was shot at someone's shield or into their leg...Old people, Tell us the origins of these tales!
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Diomedes » Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:06 pm

Anastasia of Chamonix wrote:They fail modular heads at Chaos if they know that they are modular, but the designs I am aware of have a washer round (a little larger than a penny). I guess if they came unscrewed they would be dangerous, but you can check them to see if they twist; they shouldn't move at all. It's a weird topic for me because we have had them since 2001, and of course no arrow heads have ever have fallen off, nor has there been any injury by them. I am always suspicious of them though.


If they don't have a perpendicular penny taped to the end of the shaft, they WILL fail at Chaos. Period.

Honestly, I really really like the new stuff that's coming out; but until we get the rules altered to allow for moron proof modulars, Chaos arrow check will follow the rules as written.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Thorondor » Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:28 pm

Diomedes wrote:but until we get the rules altered to allow for moron proof modulars


Once we do that someone will just build a better moron :devil:
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Peanut of Loderia » Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:31 pm

Psh. I never tell people the arrows I drop off at weapon check are modular, and no one ever knows. Also, How do you KNOW there's a penny at the end of the shaft? It could be a dime.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Black Cat » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:23 pm

Peanut of Loderia wrote:Psh. I never tell people the arrows I drop off at weapon check are modular, and no one ever knows. Also, How do you KNOW there's a penny at the end of the shaft? It could be a dime.

Or a nickel.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Hendell Stoneshield » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:02 pm

Peanut of Loderia wrote:Psh. I never tell people the arrows I drop off at weapon check are modular, and no one ever knows. Also, How do you KNOW there's a penny at the end of the shaft? It could be a dime.
. This is true, and for all we know a person could've just skipped the whole process and put duct tape on the head and called it good. What I have noticed some of the arrow checkers out in the west do is ask the maker if they cut open the can of the arrow will the penny be there or will it be modular? I have yet to see them actually take apart an arrow. It's a * move to threaten to ruin someone's arrow if they suspect it being modular. But if being a * means someone wont have an arrow shaft stuck in them at an event at the end of the day isn't it worth it? Personally I like to know the person checking the arrows is doing this.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Kage » Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:39 am

Do we need one of these? http://www.kellycodetectors.com/accessories/index.php?model=12-fpoint

Modular will eventually take hold but it will take some time. I have seen and checked some and have no problem with them. The rattle on some is the only thing that bothers me, but a bit of foam apparently can fix that. Chaos is around the corner maybe some decent light will fall on them there.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Sir Anastasia » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:37 am

I really like the metal detector idea in general. However, some modular builds do have a metal or penny blunt (just not permanently affixed), so they would pass the metal detection. I support the right of checkers to randomly destroy an arrow at check to confirm construction of the quiver.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Big King Jimmy » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:21 pm

Or... we allow them to be play tested? I mean, eventually a safe modular design has to be play tested at a national event. I know of modular arrows that pass every national event, including I believe a set that went through chaos last year. They're safe as hell. If the problem, and trust me it is the problem, is that writing rules for safe modular arrowhead designs that doesn't loophole in **** ones that are unsafe, they jesus look the other way when the safe ones come through that have something just as safe as a penny on the tip.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Sir Anastasia » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:54 pm

I think the problem with play testing is that either you have a catastrophic fail or you don't. I know that someone has had a modular arrow loose its head, be fired without a blunt, and cause damage to equipment. So, catastrophic fails have been recorded with some designs. However, my friends have had modular arrows since 2002? and we haven't had that happen. So between Chamonix/Anduril/Aggelgorod we have 9 years of not poking out eyes. Is it because we make sure they are screwed on (since we know they are modular?) I don't know. What are the current modular weapons like? Do they have a back-up blunt if the head comes unscrewed? Could they have a back-up blunt if the head were unscrewed? I wonder if the design I am familiar with is what people are using..did it come from Rhun originally or somewhere else?

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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Big King Jimmy » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:21 pm

I honestly don't want to share that info, so that people's perfectly safe arrows don't fail for dumb reasons.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Sir Anastasia » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:43 pm

Fair enough.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Cyric » Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:54 am

If people's arrows aren't built to the specifications of the BOW, then they should fail. Chaos Wars does this, and i think Okfest will start doing this as well. People willfully and blatantly ignoring one rule is not a good way to have a safe battlefield.

If people don't like the rule, then they should start working on a re-wording of it to allow for modular arrows. However, the main problem with modular arrows is that specialized parts are needed that you can't go to your local hardware store to get. That means someone somewhere is going to try and cut corners and come to an event with a quiver full of dangerous arrows.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Peanut of Loderia » Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:56 am

Cyric wrote:If people's arrows aren't built to the specifications of the BOW, then they should fail. Chaos Wars does this, and i think Okfest will start doing this as well. People willfully and blatantly ignoring one rule is not a good way to have a safe battlefield.

If people don't like the rule, then they should start working on a re-wording of it to allow for modular arrows. However, the main problem with modular arrows is that specialized parts are needed that you can't go to your local hardware store to get. That means someone somewhere is going to try and cut corners and come to an event with a quiver full of dangerous arrows.


You pick them out Cyric and then you can fail them. What I've seen is that nobody knows. All this "ZOMG they're modular so they must be unsafe!". Why would someone take the extra work tomake modular arrows and then cut corners? It doesnt make sense.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Cyric » Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:28 am

I will. they aren't hard to spot if you know what to look for. I also know who has them or access to them. If all else fails we cut open 1 arrow out of every group and make sure. I would hope the people using these arrows wouldn't want to put weapons checkers in that position.

It's not the current gen that i'm worried about. I'm worried about 2 things here:

1. Joe noob is going to read about modular arrows, have no idea how to make them, and throw something together without the specific parts used in the current method. He won't do the testing to make sure they're safe, he'll just bring them to weapon check.

I know the current batch of modular arrows are probably safe. its the next ones i'm worried about.

2. The bigger issue in all of this is that we don't get to decided what rules we follow or not depending on how much we like it. i love the idea of modular arrows. if it works within the rules, then great. if the rules change to safely accommodate them, great. The worst part of this whole argument is we have people saying "i know this is illegal, but i'm going to do it anyway". What happens when the king of the noobs decides he can build a great, safe sword on a metal core, and decides he doesn't like the rule so he's going to ignore it, because it has been done before. the weapon gets through check because he lies to the weapon checkers. Then the weapon eventually breaks on the field and hurts someone.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby bo1 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:26 am

i can see both sides of the argument. i dont like to ignore rules, but i know that a machined peice of aircraft alluminum is infinitly stringer than a penny and a wad of duct tape. so my logic sensor on overriding my moral compass. the addition of a carbon sleeve makes the entire thing even more safe. there is just no weak point to the machined inserts.

but johny newb and his pvc bandits get ahold of the idea, and i shutter in fear. hot glue and pvc and duct tape, doesnt instill confidence as a cnc lathe and HQ alluminum.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby bo1 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:34 am

btw, the simple way to make this change is to add "or larger equivelent metal blunt" to the rule after penny . makes everything ok and still makes penny the basic measure, but makes larger aluminum, nickles or quaters legal.

we can even state that the metal must be the larger blunt equivalent must be either copper, aluminum, or a cu/al/ni alloy.

All arrows must contain a perpendicular penny or larger equivalent metal blunt secured at the end of the shaft. The larger blunt equivalent must be made from either copper, aluminum, or a cu/al/ni alloy.

this would include all US coins, not dimes as they are not larger, and most of the current round of high quality aluminum machined modular arrows. the secured portion of the rule isnt an issue, we currently check to ensure the head is secured.
Last edited by bo1 on Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Cyric » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:44 am

but that's the problem with the modular arrows, is that the blunt isn't secured to the end of the shaft, its added on to another part that is then secured to the shaft. that part would have to be re-written in such a way that would keep things safe.

The other problem is that not everyone has access to machined aircraft aluminum parts for arrows.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby bo1 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:47 am

disagree, it is secured to the end of the shaft and it is perpendicular. the current machined aluminum is touching the end of the shaft when assembled.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Cyric » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:55 am

i know that's how you do it, but the rule needs to be written in a way that everyone can do it. changing the rule from a penny to something metal is fine. Saying it touches the end of the shaft is not the same as it being secured to the end of the shaft. if you want to make another rule saying the metal doesn't have to be secured to the shaft but somewhere in front of it, fine. like i said, i just worry about who come next trying to duplicate things without the benefit of a specific machined piece.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby bo1 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:06 pm

edit( this sounds like i am angry, but i am not angry, i just dont see the reasoning behind the apprehension. i understand cyric, you want a perfect rule that only allows safest possible situation with archery in our sport. i just dont think a perfect rule is possible in this contaxt.)

there is nothing saying that people do it right now. nothing. the rule is written and nobody makes sure the penny is there, or that it is propoerly secured.

this change just includes a safer stronger design. it says secured at the end, not touching, it says perendicular, nothing else need be changed.

when the design was made it was fired 100+ times into a concrete wall with only .5" 4lbs eva foam over the end. it didnt detach, no cracking, only very minor deformation. once more foaom was added the deformation was gone and the thing held up forever. i am going to shoot my old penny blunt at the wall 100 times, i will let you know at what number it fails.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Big King Jimmy » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:15 pm

You're arguing the meaning of the word "secured." The blunt is secured into the end of the shaft via threading, same as the hardware in machinery. It IS secured in place.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Cyric » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:24 pm

I get what you're saying. i support your wanting to advance technology. i know you have tested your design and its as safe as current tech, if not more. but as dangerous as archery is, we need to attempt to make it as idiot proof as possible.

my understanding of the design was that it was built around a carbon tube which was then all secured to the end of the arrow. if it's screwed on to the shaft, then that's fine by me. get the rule changed to allow for something other than a penny, and it's fine.

the other problem is that its a specialty part that makes all of this possible. since that isn't easily accessible, i shudder to think of what some people might come up with as an alternative.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Big King Jimmy » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:54 pm

Out of curiousity, Bo or whoever, why aren't the parts readily available? Can't someone just order them from the same place the manufacturer does? I mean, when stab tip tech first came out, marine foam was like gold in the sport. But people got it. And there wasn't rEALLY an alternative.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby bo1 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:49 pm

the tips are available from any machine shop able to turn aluminum, which is everyone i know of.

they use the threaded tips and the included inserts, have a grooved glue shoulder for the carbon sleeve that the arrow goes into before threading on the shaft. the end is similar in demensions to a nickel, but about 1.5 times thicker. i have a dozen of them, they have never been checked at any event, as i believe archers have no soul, and i dont support the juggle arrows until you win style of combat.

i know there are more than 150 in circulation for over a year, they all pass and never had a problem with failure. my realm will likely put forth a motion to change the wording.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Magpie Saegar » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:04 pm

I'm going to be a * and point out that, in the traditional style, the pennies are not secured to the shaft. They are just resting against the shaft and are secured to duct tape, which is then attached to the shaft. ... Anyway, carry on.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Cyric » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:24 am

I'm going to be a * and say if taping something directly to something else isn't securing it, then i don't know what is.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Magpie Saegar » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:12 am

Of course.

The point behind my facetiousness is if you have a metal blunt that is solidly attached to something which is solidly attached to the core, I think that counts as attached to the core. (solidly or securely being the key word)

Though apparently you can get a step closer by actually threading it onto the core.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Forkbeard » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:34 am

All the one out here are a graphit tube with the penny on the end and the head built onto it. That tube is then taped to the arrow shaft. So they have a penny and it is securely attached to the shaft. It all in how you look at it.
Also, you cant tell they come off if you don't know they will. You could cut the whole thing apart and miss the fact that the whole thing is mounted to a tube. They are very cleverly made.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Sir Anastasia » Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:01 am

Yeah, that is the design I am familiar with. I was wondering, if we * the head over the duct tape blunt...why can't we just drill through the penny for the * and have yer another washer on top of that.

Head comes off, metal blunt/duct tape is still attached to the shaft. One washer still in the tube head. Worst case scenario averted. Rules followed; as a metal blunt remains on the shaft side too (perm affixed). At that point, I support passing them, as they are no longer an impalement issue when the head comes off, which is an extremely rare event anyway.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Forkbeard » Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:17 pm

It's totaly unneccesary, Ana. Right now that only thing holding an arrow head to the shaft is tape. These arrow I'm describing are the same(tape holding them to the shaft. They are taped THE **** on. Hell, getting them off ani't easy with a razor.
And you can't drill holes in money, that's illegal. :angel:
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Magpie Saegar » Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:40 am

I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice, but I believe it is perfectly legal to drill holes in money as long as you have taken them out of circulation. (e.g., the penny crushing machines at tourist places). It's only illegal when you try to return the into circulation.
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Re: Modular arrows

Postby Arrakis » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:26 am

All of this sounds like the usual problems with arrow construction. Arrows are dangerous and hard to make safe and what appears safe at check can become radically unsafe a few hours later.

A new fighter, 40 years old, God love him, showed me some new arrows he was putting together at a practice I visited last weekend. He was using kits somebody had saved from back when Best Dag Stuff still existed. It involves a pool-noodle back cone slid down over a duct tape cylinder at the tip of the arrow. This poor * hadn't taken the practice blunt off of the arrow before he wrapped the tip in duct tape and his excuse was that he was going to put a washer (that is, with a hole) over the tip. I was dumbfounded.

Of course, the rest of the kit was ****, too; one 1/2" layer of meh closed cell (2# EVA) and 2" of charcoal foam???

But the point is, archery is inherently unsafe. We've tried to mitigate the risks so far with partially-codified construction and education. At major events, it would go a long way towards mitigating the risks to our fighters and our organization to just go ahead and dissect an arrow from each batch from each archer and determine intrinsic safety in that way. Sucks for archers, but, hey, that's the price you pay to get to stand off at 25 yd and plink into melee.
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