Shield Bashing Archers

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Shield Bashing Archers

Postby Isk » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:50 pm

First off, I am talking about full-on, running bashes not just shield checking.

I am suggesting that the rules be changed to make it illegal to shield bash an archer. IME, shield bashing done properly should end up with the recipient on the ground. If I understand the logic behind the rules, we do not allow archers to be grappled because of the safety hazard all those arrow nocks pose and the likelihood of splintered arrows as well. These same issues seem to be present, at least for the archer and perhaps the basher, when an archer is truly shield bashed.

I don't think I'd ever seen an archer shield bashed until last night. I then realized what a bad idea it was. Where the rules already forbid grappling an archer, this seems a simple and logical adjunct that should be put in place for safety. The only reason I can see not to do this is keeping the rules sparse. Certainly a herald can always tell people that was unsafe, but that is after they've already done it.

The proposed change is:
Book of War wrote:3.5.4.6. A combatant may not bash an opponent wielding a bow and arrows.


Also, in reviewing this I noticed the wording of 3.6.4 may lead a person to think anyone holding a class 4 weapon cannot grapple. Perhaps rewording this to apply only to archers would be a worthwhile clarification as well. From this:
Book of War wrote:3.6.4. Combatants with Missile Weapons (Type 4, bow/arrows) may not initiate Grapples or be Grappled.
To this:
Book of War wrote:3.6.4. Combatants wielding a bow and arrows may not initiate Grapples or be Grappled.


Thoughts?
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Re: Shield Bashing Archers

Postby Thorondor » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:42 pm

Makes sense to me. But I don't really count since I'm so far away from everyone now a days...

I always turned my back to people rushing me IF I couldn't run away in time. If they were going to bash me, I would be eating dirt from a back quarter bash.
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Re: Shield Bashing Archers

Postby Forkbeard » Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:01 pm

I don't think this is needed at all.
Bashing an archer is unsafe. Unsafe ****, whatever it is, is already illegal. No one but a rules lawyering * would argue that you should be able to do that kind of crap.
Rules Zero, man.
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Re: Shield Bashing Archers

Postby Tiberius Claudius » Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:42 pm

ISK wrote:Certainly a herald can always tell people that was unsafe, but that is after they've already done it.
That's why.

A herald can tell someone "don't do that again", but its already been done.

With a rule, there's no reason for a player to have done it in the first place.

Honestly, I don't see it as unsafe towards a person at all; only towards the arrows that could get broken.

Without it being a rule, I'm in favor of shield bashing archers because I want this game to be hard hitting. You already can't shield bash from behind, so since its legal from the side or front, the archer will see it coming. If they don't want to get hit, then they need to run, fight, or give up. Part of being an archer is knowing and accepting the risk that your arrows can get broken on the field. So long as it isn't an intentional destruction of property, its just an unfortunate consequence of the game you're playing.

There's no rules lawyering involved. Just wanting to play hard.
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Re: Shield Bashing Archers

Postby Forkbeard » Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:22 pm

It is clearly unsafe. It has always been considered so throughout the history of this game.
You are a stupid * if you cannot see that.
the rules do not need to change. You are wrong.
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Re: Shield Bashing Archers

Postby Tiberius Claudius » Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:48 pm

Stupid * that I am, I just don't agree that it is a fundamentally unsafe action.

Enlighten me with some specific examples of why it is unsafe, please and thanks.
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Re: Shield Bashing Archers

Postby Isk » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:52 pm

Tibby, the danger is mostly to the archer although there is some danger for the basher as well. When those arrows get broken by the archer falling on them, where do the sharp, splintery shafts go? Archers with a thick shoulder quiver may not be much at risk, but arrows in hip quivers, shoved through belts and held in hands have a tremendous chance of stabbing very unpleasantly when they are broken. Additionally, the archer has a large fiberglass or wood stick with fairly pointy ends that has a lot of potential to trip or injure either person in the event of a bash.

I think your argument that the archer should see it coming is why it so rarely happens, but that's not at all the same thing as it being safe. Do you disagree with the prohibition on grappling archers? If not, I'd be interested in knowing how you feel the dangers are so different between these two types of contact since the same argument could easily be applied to grappling (i.e. if the archer let someone get close enough to grapple it's their own fault for not being more aware).

Fork, I debated putting this up at all since it's not a particularly common occurrence, but after rereading the rules and coming to rule 3.6.4 I decided to post this suggestion. If we have a rule explicitly banning grappling with archers, it seemed we should also address bashing archers. Unless we feel like grappling archers is significantly more likely than bashing them it doesn't make much sense to me to include one and not the other.
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Re: Shield Bashing Archers

Postby Forkbeard » Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:00 am

I don't see why this is needed. Like I said, it's always been illegal for being obviously dangerous.
Poking some one in the eye with your finger is illegal, although it's not in the rules.
Fake Tiberius, You don't see it as dangerous because you are dumb.
If I smash you while your fingers are entangled in 5 arrows, all your fingers can be easily broken. Either of us can be stabbed through by the knocks on your arrows BEFORE they break. After they break the potential for stabbing skyrockets.
Then there is the likelyhood that your very expensive bow could be broken, injuring both or one of us, and definetly costing you money. Either of us could be tangled in the bow, breaking an arm or leg.
These are all dangers that exsist ONLY when shield bashing an archer. There are more things that can go horribly wrong, but I literaly just woke up.
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Re: Shield Bashing Archers

Postby Brutus » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:59 am

FB, Fake Tiberius is the reason you need to put it in the rules. I agree that every person SHOULD know that it is unsafe, but we have an example right here of someone who doesn't inherently grock that concept.

Riverbend explicitly states that bashing archers is illegal... just for cases like this. No thinking required.
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Re: Shield Bashing Archers

Postby Treethump » Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:14 pm

Rules are certainly warranted when someone exhibits behavior that a group determines to be illegal or unwanted for the dual purpose of prominently discouraging said behavior and creating an official source for future reference by heralds should anyone challenge such a rule.

Smashing into someone holding several breakable sticks waiting to become mini-knives that could easily puncture eyes, cheeks, throats, or limb, is not the hallmark of a "hard-hitting" sport, it's an invitation for disaster.

If anyone in our sport thinks this is "fine", then I'm fully in support of adding specific language to disallow it.

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Re: Shield Bashing Archers

Postby Forkbeard » Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:32 pm

But, you see, He only wants to get this rule put in so He and Isk can say their realm got a rule put in the books.
He does not really think it's ok to bash an archer, he's being a douche on purpose. To create an artificial need for the rule.
That is all this is about.
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Re: Shield Bashing Archers

Postby Thorondor » Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:45 pm

With the influx of new people asking everything that is already covered in the BoW maybe adding a simple line explicitly banning the bashing of archers would not be a bad idea...and if it makes you feel better Forkbeard, lets just say I came up with the idea and the realm of Thorondor in Texas wanted it added to the BoW. I could care less what realm had the rule added as long as it specifically says not to bash me when holding $50+ worth of breakable shards. Not everyone will have the common sense to understand bashing an archer is a bad idea (think of some of these 11-15 yr olds we've dealt with in the past year).

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Re: Shield Bashing Archers

Postby Isk » Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:07 pm

Forkbeard wrote:But, you see, He only wants to get this rule put in so He and Isk can say their realm got a rule put in the books.
He does not really think it's ok to bash an archer, he's being a douche on purpose. To create an artificial need for the rule.
That is all this is about.
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Seriously? I can't understand Tibby's take on this either, but this sounds like too much Alex Jones to me.

From my perspective, since we already explicitly ban archer grappling it makes sense to ban bashing explicitly as well. If we don't think it needs to be mentioned, we probably don't need to mention grappling archers either. To most seasoned fighters they are both obviously unsafe.
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Re: Shield Bashing Archers

Postby Tiberius Claudius » Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:32 pm

Forkbeard wrote:But, you see, He only wants to get this rule put in so He and Isk can say their realm got a rule put in the books.
He does not really think it's ok to bash an archer, he's being a douche on purpose. To create an artificial need for the rule.
That is all this is about.
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Whoa, whoa, whoa...... back up here. That's not the case at all. Get your facts straight before you start running your mouth only so you can sound like a bad * Fork. Why on earth would that be anyone's reasoning for suggesting a rule change? Is your ego so big, your self esteem so low that you need to project your need for attention on others? Christ, man, now its you being an internet douche on purpose, as usual, and its wearing thin. Put your cape away; you can be the self-appointed guardian of the game as-you-see-it another day.

This topic came up at our practice on Wednesday when someone bashed an archer - Isk was against bashing archers and I was for it. He thought it was already in the rules and I knew it wasn't. Out of a desire to keep the practice moving and since a safety consideration was brought up, as Realm Leader, I temporarily banned shield bashing archers for the night until we could look it up in the Book of War.

Since its not in the rules, Isk came here to get consensus from the community so our Realm could be in-line with the national standards and to make a suggestion. I came here to actually voice against making it a rule not because I don't think we need more rules, but because I'm in favor of allowing it. I only posted a reason that it should be a rule as a help to a friend who got a "no" from the loudest mouth here, but without any good objective reasons behind it besides a generic "its not safe".

Now, the following points have been made:
  • Danger to the archer/basher because of arrows breaking while quivered
  • Danger to the archer because of holding loose arrows in his fingers
  • Danger to the archer/basher because of a broken bow
  • Archer will possibly suffer an undue or exorbitant financial loss

Firstly, there is near zero danger to the basher because he has a shield in front of him and because a proper shield bash results in only the target being moved or hitting the ground. If the basher happens to go down, that shield in front of him is stopping most all of injuries.

Secondly, the cost of broken arrows or even more remotely, bows, while unfortunate, is strictly a known and accepted risk of playing the game. It sucks when it happens, and its never done intentionally, but it can happen. My opinion is that if someone doesn't want to have that happen, then they don't have to arch. (This is not an attempt to be punitive to archers.)

Thirdly, it is also my opinion that if someone wants to hold a bunch of arrows in their fingers instead of a quiver and they happen to break their fingers by going down, completely unintentionally of course, then that's their choice and their fault. Use a quiver. It's just like punch blocking reds and not wearing MMA gloves. Is it the red wielder's fault your hand is shattered? Not in the least. So should it be with someone who bashes an archer.

Lastly, I can see and will admit that there is a danger for injury, potentially serious, to an archer landing on his own arrows and breaking them. I think that the odds of this happening are remote, but they do exist. For me, the question is "How real is this danger, when compared to the other dangers we face on the field?" Honestly, I think its remote - no more than broken bones, concussions, or other injuries that happen regularly from accidents in our game. Is this type of injury more dangerous than what we normally see? That depends on where and to what extent the puncture occurs.

-- As far as grappling the archer goes, sure, there's the same danger of being stabbed to both parties by landing on and breaking arrows, but a grapple is, by BoW definition, a 100% at all times controlled handling/take down of the opponent. There's actually less likely to be such an injury from grappling as there is from a shield bash where the archer is sent flying.

As I said before, archers are not likely to be shield bashed since it has to come from the front or side. The instant their head is turned away its a no-go. They'll see this coming and can run away, stand and fight, or simply surrender as so many of them do already. Again, my opinion, but if you don't want to get knocked on your *, use gear that's not going to injure you or don't play the game. I'm also for allowing metal cops, full metal helms, head shots, and unarmed strikes. Personally, I'm fine with all these risks because I don't think they are any more likely to occur than the risks we face already. Sure, it will be another one to consider, but I'm an adrenaline junkie and thrive on dangerous ****. I want to play harder and come near to as real combat as possible. You've never lived until you've had someone trying to kill you. It's the rush of a lifetime and is only surpassed when you're the victorious one.

Now, all that said, I realize that all that stuff would make Bel a totally different game, but I'm still all for it if the rules begin to change that way. So, if the players' consensus is that its not acceptable, then its not acceptable and I'm cool with that. I might wish it differently, but that's the way this game is being played and I do enjoy this game. I do agree though, that if the consensus is there that bashing archers should be illegal, there should be a rule about it in the BoW.

-------------------------
tl;dr

I think its an acceptable risk; but if the community does not, that's the way the rules should be. Making a rule to specify it is a good thing.
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Re: Shield Bashing Archers

Postby Forkbeard » Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:50 pm

I want to see you sheild bash Xooyan or Lady Grey while they are arching.
Then I want to see you learn to walk again after everyone on the field stomps your kneecaps into mush.
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Re: Shield Bashing Archers

Postby Forkbeard » Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:28 pm

Do I need to point out that my responses have been exactly in line with how **** outrageous I feel this whole idea is.
You have never been able to shield bash an archer. It is as clearly dangerous and irresponsible as driving a speeding car onto the field, which, by it omission from the BoW, is apparently legal in AtD.
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Re: Shield Bashing Archers

Postby Tiberius Claudius » Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:33 pm

Good for you Fork. Good for you.

Glad you can understand what you read.
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Re: Shield Bashing Archers

Postby Black Cat » Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:25 pm

Forkbeard wrote:I want to see you sheild bash Xooyan or Lady Grey while they are arching.
Then I want to see you learn to walk again after everyone on the field stomps your kneecaps into mush.
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Re: Shield Bashing Archers

Postby Isk » Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:39 pm

Tiberius Claudius wrote:As far as grappling the archer goes, sure, there's the same danger of being stabbed to both parties by landing on and breaking arrows, but a grapple is, by BoW definition, a 100% at all times controlled handling/take down of the opponent. There's actually less likely to be such an injury from grappling as there is from a shield bash where the archer is sent flying.
So, based on this I am getting that you don't think we should prevent grappling archers, either.

From everyone else's responses (and the BoW), the community does not feel grappling or bashing archers is an acceptable risk. Fork also made the excellent point above that many of those who choose to arch in this game do it because they either do not want to are physically not able to participate safely in the more full-contact aspects of the game. The rule may be considered to be at least partially in place to protect them and encourage their participation.

This brings us back to the initial challenge Fork raised: Is this already adequately covered by rule zero or should it be added to the BoW? At the end of the day it's no skin off my nose either way, but personally I think it should be as there is already a rule explicitly banning grappling archers so this addition is logically parallel to what is already in the BoW.

I'm not a war council rep so someone else will have to run with this if they think it's worthwhile.
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Re: Shield Bashing Archers

Postby duckymcfeelgood » Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:37 am

reasons to add rules to the BoW thou they may seem obvious: PEOPLE ARE **** STUPID!!! New people sometimes don't have a good/smart realm to ask questions too, or are starting based on something the found out about and only have the BoW to go by. So adding rules like "Bashing people with pointy, deathy, splintery, smaller than your eye hard rigid plastic is bad" is good to add. It helps them to get a better sense of the things and know to never try it and learn the hard way.

Also, I agree that since your not allowed to grapple someone with those death items, why would you be allowed to do a less controlled action instead. You bash a bow, possibly sending that bow swinging threw the air with it hard reinforced ends. Even if it missed the eye, I could foresee many other not so fun injuries. Not to mention the destruction of the bow and arrows, generally some of the most invested in items on the field.

And then there are the arrows too, generally already considered one of the most dangerous things on the field. Last Ock I had one bounce off an opponents shield, come back, and plant nock first into my shield, threw the cloth and foam. I'd hate to see what would happen when I add a **** ton more force into the equation.

I like you Fork. I thing you have alot of good advice and mentality, but I think your wrong on this one.
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Re: Shield Bashing Archers

Postby Arrakis » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:33 am

For consistency, either the restriction on grappling should be removed from the BoW as too obvious to remain a rule OR the "unwritten" restriction on bashing archers should be added as just as necessary as a written prohibition on grappling archers.


I also agree that rule 3.6.4 needs to have its language clarified.

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Re: Shield Bashing Archers

Postby bo1 » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:29 am

but i really really like bashing archers. it is so much fun as they are usually cowardly and run from contact. props to kayle and and kyrian as archers, drop the bow and smash the sob. oh, there is a dark angel archer in tenn that does it too, but i cant remember his name.
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Re: Shield Bashing Archers

Postby Kage » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:41 am

Does this mean that if I carry and arrow around on my person I won't be able to be bashed?

Carlos says it best Dee Dee Dee. I'm with Fork on this one. Something that is that blatantly unsafe a person should use common sense. If you don't have any you don't belong on the field. I have never in 12 years seen an archer bashed. They either run away or get whooped by the guys stick when charged.
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Re: Shield Bashing Archers

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:37 am

The main differnce between bashing/grappling the average fighter and bashing/grappling an archer is this....

A regular fighters gear is padded, the blades, pommels, shields, etc, are all padded for safety. An archers equipment is not padded. The Bow's tips can easily go into an eye, and the nocks on the arrows are relativly sharp and unpadded. Therefore, bashing/grappling a regular fighter is OK, becuase the sharp part of his eequipment are padded for safety. Grappling/bashing an archer is not OK, because of the additional risk, not only to the archer, but also the basher, who can be easily injured by the unbroken weapons of the Archer.

It's true that allowing shield bashing and grappling is somewhat unsafe, but is an acceptable risk. Anythig beyond that, such as adding sharp objects to the mix make it beyond the acceptable risk category.
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