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 Post subject: Rapier/Jian?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:54 am 
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Having a short background in fencing (my uncle had two fencing sets and taught me some stuff) and knowing historically that rapiers and the crossbow rendered European full plate armor almost obsolete on the battlefield I can't help but wonder, why can't green damage from a 1 handed weapon bypass armor? Rapiers along with the Chinese Jian had no REAL slashing ability versus armor. Could it be a possible solution if they were to receive their own weapon classification? Maybe some rules that could define them could be something like these that my friend and I came up with.

White Weapon Rules:
-White weapons are defined as 1 handed swords designed almost solely for thrusting. Due to the way they were historically designed they have a VERY minimal slashing capability. These rules are designed to mimic this nature.
SPECS
-Minimum blade length of 18 inches, maximum is 40 inches including any hilt the weapon may have. Maximum handle length is 8 inches not counting the pommel.
-Must pass blue weapon safety rules for weight flex and safety, as well as the green weapons safety rules.
-Must be very clearly marked, preferably by a white cloth cover. If the marking is not VERY obvious in combat "white" should be called out with each strike.
FUNCTION
-White weapons do not destroy armor and simply bypass it with a thrust. The force of the thrust should have enough speed and force to make a noticeable noise or pushing effect on an armored target to cause damage past their defense.
-Limbs are disabled but not severed on a stab, hence multiple stabs to one limb simply count as multiple stabs to one limb with a white weapon and do not pass through as a slash would. Both arms must be disabled or severed so that the target is no longer capable of fighting back to count as dead from white damage.
-White weapons cause no damage to any armored area with a slash and must slash an unarmored limb twice in order to sever it.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapier/Jian?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:43 am 
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This is better suited for the discussion forum.

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 Post subject: Re: Rapier/Jian?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:57 am 
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While I agree on the factual use of weapons somewhatly, I don't think this will fly here. Our rules are specifically simple to allow for ease of play. I can understand where you are coming from, but I don't think this kind of change will happen. On the other hand, all you have to do is put your other hand on the hilt of the weapon and bingo, two handed green penetrates armor.

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 Post subject: Re: Rapier/Jian?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:29 pm 
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back in the dark ages of ohio Dagorhir we had Orange weapons that were draw cut weapons. similar to what you are purposing. They functioned without a weight limit or a minimal force instead a draw cut was used, they did basically half damage. It was complicated and did not last long.

Theres a reason they are not around anymore. Its simple complicates things too much. While a fun thing to play with on a small hometown field it gets really confusing.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapier/Jian?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:35 pm 
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I mean this constructivly, if you don't already know we have white weapons, consider expierencing more Belegarth culture, most reasons for why we don't have things like this will come to you over time.

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 Post subject: Re: Rapier/Jian?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:51 pm 
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No, we will not adapt your weapon idea.
It will not work in game play on a large scale.
Jim's right, after you've played the game a while, you'll see why.
Stop thinking about it and go fight some people.
FB

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 Post subject: Re: Rapier/Jian?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:56 pm 
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Come on, give him a break. He obviously knows what will work for our game on a large scale. He's thought of every possibility and has extensively play tested his idea across a large cross section of foam fighting realms.

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Wait a minute....

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 Post subject: Re: Rapier/Jian?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:02 pm 
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I love the concept of a rapier, especially in this game. But you as a new person with no reputation what so ever will never change the games rules.

However, this does not mean you are out of ideas. You can indeed have your cake and eat it too.

Consider that 90% of the people on the battle field don't wear armor at all, and of those that do, only a small percentage of those will ever be wearing full armor with no gaps. A simple green weapon will work just fine for you. It is perfectly within the rules to make a three or four foot sword with no slashing edge that can be used only for stabbing. Not only would this weapon be in fact lighter and more agile than a regular sword, if you are good enough, you could maneuver it into the gaps between the armor of the few opponents you do face who are wearing it just like you would have to with a real rapier. Making the weapon a green only weapon, the weight rules and flex rules of a normal sword no longer apply.

Your dream weapon already exists.

Now about the reasoning behind your proposed changes...

the Rapier did not render full plate obsolete, gunpowder did. The Rapier was developed as a civilian weapon. Despite what you saw in the Disney version of the three musketeers, the french musketeers did not charge into battle wielding Rapiers. Had they done that they probably would have been called the Rapiers not the Musketeers. Ill leave it up to you to figure out what they actually fought with most of the time.

The Rapier sword it's self is not a plate armor killer unless it was specifically designed to do so in which case it ceases to be a rapier in the classical sense. It may defeat chain and some leather armors, but in the time period which it was developed, plate armor was already on its way out due to gunpowder. It was a stabbing weapon that developed because it was more socially acceptable in a tavern than a war hammer, and because most people didn't wear plate armor anymore outside of the battlefield. Whats the point when any idiot with a flintlock and ten minutes of training can take down a knight who has trained for years and spent a fortune for his armor.

Your only problem is going to be the shield, which 90% of the fighters in this game do carry. Now, if you are particularly quick and speedy, you might get past it. Then again, you might not.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapier/Jian?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:20 am 
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Or you could use a javlin. Several people have done this. One college kid we had was a competition fencer for the school, he used a jav and a small shield and, relative to his time in the game, he **** RULED with it.
And you can THROW a jav. You can,t ever throw your sword.+
fb

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 Post subject: Re: Rapier/Jian?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:49 am 
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One of the Point locals with a fencing background made a rapier. It was a one-sided flatblade with a stab-tip and a a leather hilt. He's pretty decent with it, too.

Bel events tend to be fairly light on fully armored types. There's always a place to stab somebody, if only the armpits or the *.

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